Yankees v. Sox Thread -- Getting it Going

[RDF]

Borat, you are very immature in this. I'm not criticizing or attacking you--I brought up points that I disagree with and why I feel a certain way. You think anyone who disagrees is wrong and you aren't understanding what is said.

1. I never said Viscaino, Curtis, etc.. were guys I think are better then Rodriguez--I said they are guys who fit a role on a team and that is important to teams--Stars are great, but a team full of them isn't the way to go--you need those guys who will accept their role and do what is necessary. I'm not saying A-Rod is terrible--just that he's overrated and mistakenly viewed as the best player in the game--which he is not.

2. My Coach in HS was former Major Leaguer Craig Kusick. My college Coach was the son of former Yankee Johnny Blanchard. Johnny being an ex-Yankee has pretty good ties to the Yankee organization--and as a player who dealt with/talked with Yankee scouts in HS/College, you make some decent connections. I've been able to actually talk baseball some people that most haven't--Yogi, Jim Kaat, and it's a pleasure/honor. That doesn't make me special but it does give some insight into what was going on at the time.

3. Soriano said he would change for the Yankees and Yankees only--at that time--what happened after his trade has nothing to do with fact he loved being a Yankee and playing in New York.

4. I am not saying Crede is a better player then A-Rod. Again where you are getting this I don't know--I think he's a better 3B defensively and if you traded A-Rod for him the team wouldn't suffer at all. Especially considering Rodriguez could bring more in terms of pitching/prospects.

5. I should've clerfied what I meant by the steriods/HGH thing--I didn't mean to include A-Rod but I was referring to the fact older players production/numbers weren't suffering and were actually improving during the Steriod Era--that will NOT happen anymore. So to assume A-Rod will continue to put up numbers at the pace he has is an assumption--that is a factor and sorry I didn't clerify it.

6. It's not that being an ex-ballplayer gives you wisdom--heck I explained this in the post above that you supposedly read. I agree that not everyone has to play to understand the game but you obviously ignored that. I do think you need to play/be around the guys to understand what makes up a selfish player and a guy who teammates respect. Some guys can produce huge numbers but hurt the team by failing to advance runners, worrying about contract and not going hard after a ball in the field, etc...and unless you've been there and seen/heard it, you will never understand it. Just a fact.

7. The Yankees record is better because they have a better defense overall--and A-Rod's errors have hurt the team. Who's saying they wouldn't have had a better record then they already have if he was playing 3B like he did prior to this year? Their OF defense is a huge upgrade--you and I both know that. Their IF defense is shaky but with a pitcher like Wang, you'll get more opportunities and your fielding percentage will go up as you'd like to think you will not see a guy continously make errors. Now ask Mussina what he thinks of A-Rod the past 3 starts and you might see someone that feels he's hurting his chances to win.

8. Your logic on closing is beyond retarded. So it's not hard to close games? It is not important. Ask any Yankee player how many Titles they have without Mariano Rivera and see your answer. Ask the Red Sox if Keith Foulke made a difference. Frankie Rodriguez of Angels, Bobby Jenks of White Sox, do I need to continue? Closers shorten the game, they get the toughest outs in the only sport that has to have an ending--there is no clock and they are called on to pitch in situations that require you to protect a lead--you mention 3 outs to protect a 3 run lead. What about protecting a one run lead when are facing 3-4-5 hitters and have thrown 5 of the last 8 days. That's not valuable? I respect your opinion but you are just being silly here and if closing not's important how come Epstein and Beane who believed this at one time made the change to traditional closer after their teams were continously beaten by not having a reliable person on the back end of the bullpen?

9. Bobby Bonilla was playing for a manager he came up with in Jim Leyland. Kevin Brown wasn't on the juice in '97--he actually was still an effective pitcher until he went crazy with steriods out in Los Angeles. Again--to prolong his career, not for performance. Sheffield was a far superior player in '97 then now and yet he was moved after Florida won--why--his personality didn't fit in with the guys on team and he was a cancer. That team won and did so because of good chemistry on the field of play--as I pointed out above--A's of 70's and Yankee teams too. Clubhouse problems caused them to break up and Sheffield was a big part of that.

10. Playing the sport is relevant to a degree--and especially with the business side/workings of a team. I think it's that way in any business. If you are working for a company and someone else who isn't or has never worked in industry starts criticizing you while having never been in that situation, who has more credibility and understands how vital some things that most take for granted are?

11. My personal reference page--try tryouts for Tigers, Twins, White Sox, and a few extended Spring Training Games--which is for Rookies/Foreign kids, with the Dodgers--not much there. I wasn't good enough for that level of play and didn't perform well enough to deserve to play. But it's something I at least was able to do. It's not an easy game and certainly not as easy as some make it seem. But it does expose you to a lot and make you appreciate the guys who do fill roles/grind and make the team more enjoyable--because Minor leagues is very selfish/all about individual stuff in many organizations. It's why the Yankee organization gets so much credit with players--they care for their guys and you are taught to play as a team and the right way of baseball--winning.

I sometimes wonder if you are an A-Rod fan or a Yankee fan ? some of your comments (closing isn't important when Mariano Rivera is the most valuable player on the team and has been since '96) come off as just too ignorant to honestly consider you a fan of the team. Role players aren't important? I love the Yankees too--but if a guy is replaceable--he is and it's been proven the Yankees could win with a formula/team that didn't include Alex Rodriguez. So saying Crede for A-Rod is a terrible trade nobody would do is silly--if you threw in Cotts, Thornton, a Brandon McCarthy, and Crede for A-Rod--what helps your team more--1 player or 1 guy who is going to be decent with bat/RBI's and better with glove along with pitching?

David Ortiz is a better hitter then A-Rod--he's a guy who is more valuable to his team as well. Yankees have been in postseason since '96 and have been to all of the World Series during Torre era prior to his arrival. It's not A-Rod's fault, but it's not as if he's a difference maker either. No one player is--it's a TEAM that wins Championships and that is my point--but a leader on a team like Ortiz is invaluable and has won them games that were up for grabs and Pablebon has saved their butts this year and to me those 2 are why they are even within 5 games in loss column. Of course I also believe Manny Ramirez is why Ortiz hits so well too. Without his protection, Ortiz isn't same player. But if a guy produces over a period of time--then he's earned the praise and respect.

Rodriguez has played in the Kingdome and Arlington. 2 places where ball flys out of the yard. He has played on great teams that have failed to to get to World Series and some overrated teams. He plays in an era where mediocre pitching exists, pitchers can't pitch inside, ballparks are smaller, and lineups are stacked--he should have good numbers. IF you are the best player in the game--you carry a team when it counts and are treated as such--you do it with your all around play--not just the bat and you dominate in the situations Hall of Famers are expected to. But then again, we're in an era where people like Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, and such will likely be in the Hall of Fame, so I can see why A-Rod's hyped so much. It's all about one dimensional players. Remember, great fielding percentages don't mean you are a great player--Darren Lewis set defensive records for not committing errors but was a he great OF or was he a terrible one who couldn't throw and thus avoided errors by giving up bases to avoid throwing?? Lack of range prevents errors as you don't get near a ball most guys would/should.

I'll let it go now--but wish you saw what I was saying and didn't take such offense to what I'm saying. It's not easy to understand tone in an email/post on a board but I'm disagreeing--not screaming at you. Obviously you are upset and bothered by the dissenting remarks and that's your perogative, but it's easy to do when you've never been in the shoes of a player and at a level beyond your backyard/watching games. It's not as easy/simple as it appears/seems. Nothing ever is.

At least we agree we like the Yankees (I think--although if A-Rod's traded we'll find out if you are a fan or not, )

[RDF]

borat2 said:

Awesome. Dude, you're awesome.

a few things:

1) you're lying about Soriano. stop it. you're embarrassing yourself with your mysterious Cashman source. What did Soriano do when he was traded to Washington, by the way? oh right, threaten to sit out if they made him play LF. also, back when you made the claim, you said it was common knowledge that Soriano would move. Now it's a friend of a friend who knows Brian Cashman? Lying on the internet is pathetic.

2) A-Rod's been here 2 years. Same with Sheffield. Do you think you can give them more than 2 years before holding them to the Reggie standard of "clubhouse cancer but AOK b/c he won a title". Reggie, by the way, batted 127 in the 1977 ALCS. Had his teammates not helped him out, perhaps you'd be singing a different tune about him.

3) Crede is not an upgrade over A-Rod. This isn't even a discussion worth having.

4) Jose Vizcaino was a bench player. So was Luis Sojo. Never in a million years would you want them as a starter. Same reason you wouldn't start Miguel Cairo. You wouldn't play any of them over A-rod. Stop it. Also, Chad Curtis was a Yankee starter for 2 seasons. They lost to the Tribe in 97, and he started in LF for the Yanks in 98 - where his 243 batting average and grit would certainly not have been upgraded by a player like Manny Ramirez. Also, he was the most shunned man in the Yankee clubhouse for calling out Derek Jeter for talking to A-Rod during a Mariners/Yankees brawl. By all accounts, he was a jerk, and he was run out of town. Stop it.

5) Pitching and defense are certainly important to winning a title. However, I'd still take A-Rod over Eric Chavez and Joe Crede, 2 arguably better defenders. Just about everyone would.

6) Are you insinuating A-Rod uses HGH/steroids? Do you know someone who knows someone who knows someone that knows the urine analyst? do tell. otherwise, that's a pretty hefty charge

7) Your esoteric chemistry wisdom is awesome. I wish I was a former ballplayer so I could understand such a concept. how do you feel about Barry Bonds? if the Giants bullpen closes it out in 2002 and Bonds wins World Series MVP while posting a 2000 OPS, do they win b/c they played as one? or b/c barry bonds carried them, despite being a colossal jerk?

8) Riddle me this Batman - if defense is so important, and A-Rod has 22 errors at 3b and Derek Jeter is abysmal at SS...how is the Yanks record better now than last season? Damon has been awesome, Melky pretty much average, and RF has been a disaster until Abreu came in. How does a ground ball pitcher like Wang actually get by with such a horrendous infield?! This is so exhausting. I know giving opponents extra outs is bad. However, you're implying that A-Rod's defense this season is indicative of his whole career. He was, bar none, the best defensive SS in the AL before he came to NY. He was pretty good at 3b the past 2 seasons. He stinks this year. And you're willing to judge his value as a player based on this season, which, judging by his past and current age, is probably an aberration?

9) Rivera was a starter to begin with. They moved him to the pen b/c they didn't think his arm would hold up over 200 innings. That was necessity more than anything. Papelbon will probably return to the rotation next season. He is a starter they made into a closer. And if they would have started Papelbon 30 times instead of throwing Kyle Snyder, Jason Johnson, and god knows who else out there, they'd probably be a few wins better than they are now. Saves are an overrated stat - it isn't that difficult to get 3 outs before the other team scores 3 runs. Papelbon has been a magnificent closer, best in the league. But given that the Sox rotation has been Curt Schilling and 4 guys who are terrible, Papelbon may have had greater impact as a starter. We'll see what happens next season.

10) You said Sheffield was a cancer and his attitude would affect the Yankees and make it more difficult to win a title. The Marlins won with Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla, and Kevin Brown. How's that for chemistry? One would think, given the personalities in that clubhouse, they would have all killed eachother. But alas, they won the whole thing. My point, as usual, is that any perceived clubhouse problems are trumped by performance on the field. Those 3 are considered among the worst "teammates" of the past 15 years by baseball "experts". Results?

11) I don't care that you played baseball. Stop bringing it up. It doesn't make me irate or anything like that. It just isn't relevant. Joe Morgan is in the HoF and he doesn't know anything. I laugh everytime you bring it up. I'm sure others do too. I also laugh when you say things like "the A's and Yankees of the 70s hated each other but played as one". That is some crap John Kruk says. Were the Yankees "playing as one" when Reggie hit 3 HRs in the one WS game? Or was Reggie just being a bad mamajama? Did Willie Randolph's grit inspire him from the bench? Baseball is, at its heart, a one on one matchup between pitcher and batter. The team that wins these individual battles wins the game. Joe Crede's ability to execute a 5-3 putout is not more valuable than a guy that hits 321/421/1031 in a season, as A-Rod did last year. Let's trade him to the Angels in a 3 way deal to get us Crede and Erstad!

12) Speaking of which, can you link us with your personal baseball reference page? I want to see what kind of player you were.

I'm leaving for Chicago. Good day to all of you.

- Borat

PS - borrowed from ken tremendous and Co

True Yankee
A leader. A guy who’s full of intangible qualities that help him triumph – with class. Derek Jeter. A guy who has a certain look in his eye, like he knows what it means to don the pinstripes with some motherfletching pride. Bernie. Mantle. Joe D. Jeter. A guy who you want in the trenches with you. Mattingly. Joe Girardi. Derek. Jim Leyritz. Posada. Derek Jeter. A guy who stares adversity in the face and says, “I play for the Yankees, and that means something, and I am going to hit a HR off BK Kim in this World Series Game because I am a New York Yankee." Scott Brosius. Tino. Dave Justice. Derek Jeter. A winner. Derek Jeter.

Here are some people who are not True Yankees: Alex Rodriguez, Mike Mussina, Jason Giambi, Alfonso Soriano, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, and every other New York Yankee who has never been on a Yankees’ World Series winning team.

If you ever – ever – hear someone use the phrase “True Yankee,” for any reason, I want you to find the nearest exit, form an orderly line, and leave the premises quickly and calmly. Seek shelter. Cover head. Report the incident to your nearest FJM representative immediately. You are in great danger, because the person you are talking to is an idiot.

Darin Erstad
A former punter at the University of Nebraska who had one good year for the Angels, signed a huge contract, and stinks at baseball, despite the strident arguments of hundreds of sportswriters who continue to talk about how important he is to the Angels and how he’s intense and a leader and the Angels would be nowhere without him. Trust us: he stinks at baseball.

Did you ever think some of those guys like Erstad earn their respect/praise by being guys who played hurt and never cheated. I mean Scott Speizio was a big name on that Angels team and take away the Juice he was on and what kind of player was he? Players view of people is a bit different because they know for a fact who's cheating and who's not--so do the GM's and Owners--but if a guy is going to take something, produce and play more games which puts butts in the seats, who is going to tell on them??

Jeter is what Yankees are all about and should be about-he plays hard, doesnt say a word, and just plays ball. What's wrong with using him as a model for what you want an organization to be about?

A-Rod is viewed differently because he's a guy who left a winning organization for money, then acted as if it was vital to the sport for him to play in Boston or for the Yankees in limelight? Why didn't he stay in Seattle if he wanted to win? They only produced more wins then anyone during regular season without him the next year--so it's not as if they didn't have talent? It's why fans dont' like the guy--he feels the game owed him--when fact is he should just shut up and play. He got what he wanted--out of Texas and in the spotlight and with that comes criticism--so how does he deal with it? So far he's made excuses and he has to realize that everything is magnified in NY/Boston and especially when you ASK to come into that situation.

Maybe the author should realize Mattingly never won a title as a Yankee before making his "point". People view Mattingly special because he's a classy player and played the game hard/consistently. What's wrong with that?

I don't know one Yankee fan who doesn't like A-Rod because he hasn't won a title--I can vouch I will still see him the same if this team wins/doesn't--he's overrated when it comes to best player in the game talk--but he's a fine player. I also don't view everyone as "special" players on Yankee teams as Bernie Williams and Posada are two of the most overrated players in Yankee history. So this is just from a Yankee hating perspective.

[Cambridge]

Pains me to say it...but Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreu have pretty much solidified my suspicion that Theo and Co. were getting too much credit for too little work. Great work by Cashman to put those two ball players on the squad, they just come to play and get such consistent results. I miss Johnny more than I ever realized...and admit that Bobby Abreu would have looked incredible in right field for us regardless of how many prospects would be wearing Phillies stripes.

PS I'm meeting Theo Epstein in a couple weeks, when the A's play the Sox. A friend of mine won an auction for some tickets that include a meet and greet with the braintrust. Any questions for the little geek?

[Hank Scorpio]

I landed in Chitown and a rain delay allowed me to catch the 8th inning til now. Wowza. the 9th inning reminded me of why mariano rivera is my favorite player ever. No help from your defense? Then he says F you Jobu, I'll do it myself. Pimp. Also, calling David Ortiz's grounder to Giambi that old leadfoot botched a double is absurd. I demand this be accounted into his OPS

Bridge, I know ya miss Damon, but 4 years was too many, and the Sox were probably right to let him go. I love him now, too, but come 2009, it might not be pretty. If the Sox were smart, they'd throw the house at Vernon Wells after 2007. As for Abreu, that seemed to be a financial move. They could have given up better prospects than CJ Henry...time will tell if holding onto Lester/Hansen/Delcarmen was the prudent decision. Given the scarcity of pitching these days, maybe. Time will tell. I'm just glad the Yanks didn't give up Hughes or Clippard...those guys are just toying with AA right now.

As i write this post, Giami just went yard. This would be a pretty crushing loss for the Sox, using up Schilling and Papelbon. We'll see if Dr Rivera can get it done.

cambridgehoya said:

Pains me to say it...but Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreu have pretty much solidified my suspicion that Theo and Co. were getting too much credit for too little work. Great work by Cashman to put those two ball players on the squad, they just come to play and get such consistent results. I miss Johnny more than I ever realized...and admit that Bobby Abreu would have looked incredible in right field for us regardless of how many prospects would be wearing Phillies stripes.

PS I'm meeting Theo Epstein in a couple weeks, when the A's play the Sox. A friend of mine won an auction for some tickets that include a meet and greet with the braintrust. Any questions for the little geek?

[DanMcQ]

Well, this weekend has reaffirmed the only baseball truism: pitching wins games. The Sox staff has not been the same since Wakefield went on the DL and the absence of Varitek has left the young pitchers exposed on their own. Sadly, I feel a new Shaughnessy book coming on.

Theo Faces the Sharks

[Hank Scorpio]

RDF i am too tired to indulge you entirely.

so i'll localize it to the closer debate:

1) Mariano Rivera has not been the Yankee closer since 96. John Wetteland closed for that first team. Mo was his setup man, inheriting the role in 97. John Wetteland provided more agita than Mo ever has, but bottom line, he got the job done. You don't have to be amazing to close out games. Mariano Rivera happens to be amazing, but he is the only closer i can think of who has been as good as he has for as long as he has. He is the exception, not the rule, and, again, the Yankees felt he wasn't going to make it as a starter and converted him to the bullpen.

2) K-Rod was not the closer for the Angels in 2002. Troy Percival was, K-Rod setting him up. Much like Wetteland, he wasn't as good as his setup man, but he still was able to get the job done.

3) Bobby Jenks? He didn't pitch a single inning in the 2005 ALCS. He posted a 3.60 ERA in the 2005 WS. He blew a save in game 2. How valuable was he? He certainly wasn't as valuable as any of their starters, all of which dazzled last October. You could have marched out Damaso Marte and he'd have likely succeeded as well. Bobby Jenks is not awesome. Neither is Todd Jones - the Tigers could have Zumaya or Rodney out there and have the same record. This is why I feel saves are overrated. A closer isn't worth jack in the absence of good starting pitching. Is Mariano Rivera in a position to succeed without those Yankee rotations? How about Keith Foulke? What's he doing without Pedro and Schilling? Who was more important?

4) Closers are closers for a reason: they aren't suitable to start. That's the same reason all relievers are relievers. Mariano Rivera wouldn't make it as a starter. Hence, he relieves. In the absence of Joe Nathan, the Twins would be out of their heads to put Liriano or Santana in at closer. Would the D-Backs have been better off with RJ/Schilling at closer and BK Kim in the lineup? No. For the same reason, Papelbon should probably be starting - 200 dominant innings are worth more than 70 dominant innings. Starting schleps like Kyle Snyder and Jason Johnson essentially gives away 1.5 games every time through the rotation. A decent closer is going to protect most 3 run leads. If a Sox fan wants to run an analysis on how many truly tough saves Paps has come through with, we can examine that. In the absence of said data, I think the Sox hurt themselves with him as a closer.

5) Clubhouse problems did not lead the breakup of the 97 Marlins. And how do you know who was on the juice when? Oh right, Jim Kaat and Yogi told you. They sold that team off piece by piece b/c it wasn't profitable - it caused a major outcry amongst its fans and MLB. If you can find me ANY article citing clubhouse issues being the reason, I'll grant you this point, but and i both know they won't exist. The Marlins of 97 were broken up b/c management couldn't afford to keep them - the same reason the 2003 Marlins were broken up.

I'm not going to discuss A-Rod with you any further - the Joe Crede, Neal Cotts (he of the 4.17 career ERA and 1.50 WHIP), and Brandon McCarthy (#3 starter) proposal is what did it. The New York Yankees, with all their financial wherewithal, can sign Neal Cotts type relievers and #3 starters. A-Rod's production is not as easy to find. We'll leave it at that, agreeing to disagree on A-Rod's value. I am also in vehement disagreement your claim that both Posada and Bernie Williams are overrated. We'll examine that another day, but the Yanks strength up the middle was integral to their success in the 1998-2001 pennant years.

[Hank Scorpio]

Tough to say, Dan - how much credit do you give the Yanks relentless offense, how much blame do you place on the Sox pitching staff? The Yanks didn't get great starts from anyone they threw thus far - Wang has been the best, and he wasn't as sharp as he normally is. Cy Ponson? RJ? Moose only went 4 tonight. Better than the Sox, yes, but the Yanks OBP machines made the Sox staff look worse than it actually is. This offense is scary good with Abreu and Giambi hitting back to back. I shudder to think what happens when Matsui and/or Sheffield comes back. And even if they don't...Melky is quietly OPS'ng 833 in July and 973 in August.

All hail Cashman

danmcq said:

Well, this weekend has reaffirmed the only baseball truism: pitching wins games. The Sox staff has not been the same since Wakefield went on the DL and the absence of Varitek has left the young pitchers exposed on their own. Sadly, I feel a new Shaughnessy book coming on.

Theo Faces the Sharks

[DanMcQ]

borat2 said:

All hail Cashman

Cash being the operative factor here. Sox are not poor, but they do not have the resources the Yanks have to construct a 1-9 all star offensive lineup at the drop of a hat. To wit: Abreu vs. Hinske. I rest my case.

Of course the Yanks offense is a factor. Both pitching staffs are held together with baling wire - the baling wire in Fenway being Varitek. Tonight Timlin (who is showing signs of being at the end of the road), Lopez and Hansen faced 9 batters and got 3 outs. Ultimately THAT was the problem.

The young pitchers (Hansen, Delcarmen, and Lester and to a lesser extent Papelbon) have all suffered from having Javy Lopez and Mirabelli behind the plate. I like the Sox' chances long term - but right now the Sox are in a period somewhat like Tiger Woods' swing reconstruction periods...

[Hank Scorpio]

before i begin...i can't help but think of how much more fun this weekend would have been if 2004 never happened. screw you dave roberts!

that said...i don't think the Sox abstained from Abreu b/c they couldn't afford it. they could have offered a more attractive package than the yankees and the phillies would probably have picked up a lot of salary. i think it was a financial decision, only in that they felt money would be better spent on pitching - they went hard after Oswalt at the deadline and would probably have had to absorb some of Andruw Jones's contract to make it happen.

speaking of money...they just handed Beckett a big extension. Ortiz's salary nearly doubles next season. They'll need to work out deals for Papelbon and Youkilis this offseason. this is before the Barry Zito sweepstakes begin. their payroll could swell to 140-150 next season [it's at 120 now]. the Sox financial resources are vast, they'll find a way sign who they need to. i think the key issue, this season anyway, is that, unfortunately for the Sox, the ownership didn't buy the team for 10 million like Steinbrenner bought the Yanks. people fail to mention this...but George is playing with house money. He can afford less of a yearly profit b/c a 10 million dollar investment is now worth close to a billion. perhaps Sox ownership is less willing to make that sacrifice. not saying it's wrong, but perhaps they tried to cut corners and it caught up to them this season.

taken from Buster Olney's blog today:
Red Sox putting money into team?posted: Monday, August 21, 2006 | Feedback | Print Entry

The disparity between the Yankees and the Red Sox in money is enormous, writes Nick Cafardo, and this year, that may make a difference.

Here's the thing on that, though. The Red Sox may not spend as much as the Yankees, they may not believe that they should. But consider the incredible sources of income for the team -- perhaps the best local revenue streams of any club, with NESN and tremendous local radio coverage and advertising; the expansion of Fenway Park; the highest seat prices in the majors; the surprising and enormous dollars that every team is getting for the success of MLB.com; dramatically increased concessions, with dozens of additional beer taps in the park to charge big money for the brew. It is apparent that the Red Sox are grossing enormous amounts of money.

The Red Sox have basically held to their budget since they won the World Series in 2004. I don't have access to their books -- the next writer who does will be the first -- but this does beg a question: Where is the additional money going?

George Steinbrenner has rightly been criticized over the years for exorbitant spending, for crazy financial decisions on mediocre players. But he plows a lot of his profit back into the team.

Are the Red Sox doing that?

The new ownership group has been wonderful for the franchise, a blessing, and has worked overtime to make sure that a fan's experience at Fenway Park is enhanced.

Are they spending the extra money needed to make sure they have a left-handed reliever or two down the stretch, or to make sure that Johnny Damon doesn't sign with the Yankees?

This year, they didn't.

When the Yankees play the Minnesota Twins, or the Oakland Athletics, it is a David vs. Goliath type situation. The Twins cannot compete with the Yankees' resources, and they'll never have multi-million dollar middle relievers and bench players.

I don't begrudge any privately owned company the right to make money, and keep it. The Red Sox are a terrifically run business. They can spend or not spend as they see fit; that is their right.

But let's not be fooled here. The Red Sox have money.

danmcq said:

borat2 said:

All hail Cashman

Cash being the operative factor here. Sox are not poor, but they do not have the resources the Yanks have to construct a 1-9 all star offensive lineup at the drop of a hat. To wit: Abreu vs. Hinske. I rest my case.

Of course the Yanks offense is a factor. Both pitching staffs are held together with baling wire - the baling wire in Fenway being Varitek. Tonight Timlin (who is showing signs of being at the end of the road), Lopez and Hansen faced 9 batters and got 3 outs. Ultimately THAT was the problem.

The young pitchers (Hansen, Delcarmen, and Lester and to a lesser extent Papelbon) have all suffered from having Javy Lopez and Mirabelli behind the plate. I like the Sox' chances long term - but right now the Sox are in a period somewhat like Tiger Woods' swing reconstruction periods...

[Jack]

No Red Sox fan can cry poor, but people do need to deal in reality. I am as disappointed as anyone in the results since the All Star break, but I also do not expect to win the World Series every year- having only won one in the previous 87 years should give you that kind of perspective, at least by the morning after each incredibly frustrating loss.

The idea that the ownership is taking profits at the expense of the product on the field is ludicrous- John Henry is not the Trib. I believe that the FO tried to improve this team, but also made tough calculations on what was available and what future costs that created. I am certain the Sox had the prospects to trade for Abreu and Lidle, and Abreu looks terriffic now, but the costs there would have been extreme- both some kind of prospect and a loss of flexibility in trying to acquire another top of the rotation type of pitcher. A deal for Roy Oswalt would have been worthwhile, but otherwise I don't know who else would have provided a meaningful upgrade for the beleaguered pitching staff. Papelbon needs to be in the rotation next year.

Where Theo does have to come in for criticism is in the miscalculations in free agency, but even that is only possible with the benefit of hind sight. I don't know how you can tell Matt Clement and Edgar Renteria are going to bomb so spectacularly. I don't think you can evaluate the choices with Pedro and Damon until the end of their contracts either- the same goes for Beckett and Crisp. But the total inability to put together a bullpen seems to be an ongoing issue for this FO, and Bill James does not have adequate answers either. Meanwhile Cla Meredith is putting up a great season in AAAA while Doug Mirabelli hit .198 and Tim Wakefield rots on the DL.

[Gold Hoya]

Well, you could have watched Clement being taken out of the Cubs' September rotation two years in a row because he was worn out / scared of his shadow. See www.desipio.com/archives/00000721.htm among others.

I understand why Red Sox fans are surprised - you expect an $8mil/yr pitcher to be good - but Matt Clement is not an $8mil/yr pitcher.

A-Rod's latest DP in the 4th inning looked like total garbage, and only partially because ESPN2 HD isn't working properly and I have to watch on analog.

[Cambridge]

Paps did everything he could to win that game for us. Jeter's hit was bloop, flare garbage...but you can't deny that Jeter always manages to pull one of those out. Poor Paps, because he earned at least a save if not a win for that gutsy 8th and 9th. He was obviously overthrowing the ball and without Tek to settle him down, he managed to overcome it and throw some extra sharp cheddar. He is a joy to watch.

How about Wells and Lidle doing their best impressions of 2002?

[sweetness]

Was Melky's double flare garbage? No, he smoked your boy Paps' ball into the gap.

[Hank Scorpio]

Flare or not, a hit's a hit. Ortiz's grounder vs the Angels a few weeks back was pretty garbage, but if it gets the job done, who cares? Posada's "double" in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS is the best example I can think of this.

Alas, despite the board's resident Moonlight Graham/Baseball Expert wondering aloud whether the Yankees would win a single game this series due to their lack of intestinal fortitude...the Yankees won all 5 games. As stated before, RDF, please, keep those predictions coming.

The only team I would fear come October with this Yankee squad is the Twins - if Liriano and Santana are both healthy, they could take the Yankees in a 5 game series. So, let's go White Sox.

Off to Wrigleyville...how bout them yanks

- B

sweetness said:

Was Melky's double flare garbage? No, he smoked your boy Paps' ball into the gap.

[nychoya3]

Now that is how you break a team's spirit! Hell yeah baby.

Luis Gonzalez could tell you a little something about lucky hits. Garbage or not, it's part of the game. As for the difference it can make in a game, I need only refer you to Crash Davis on this very subject.

You're doing god's work Borat. Arguments with RDF (who is, to be clear, awesome) are an endurance contest, and you're holding your own. Being right about pretty much all of it doesn't hurt a bit either.

[SirSaxa]

"Garbage"?

Perhaps that term would be better applied to the decision to wait until the bases were loaded with no one out in the 8th before bringing in your superstar closer?

[hoyarooter]

Wow, what an unmitigated disaster for the Red Sox. Does anyone remember when anything as bad as this last occurred? Since 5 game series are so rare, I would even be curious as to the last time a contending team was even swept in a 4 game series at home.

Damn Yankees. The Red Sox needed Joe Hardy to go along with Big Papi and ManRam.

All you Red Sox fans, do you think the Sox are finished? They could certainly still win the wild card if they can somehow put this mess behind them. If the Twins don't get Liriano back and the White Sox starting pitchers continue to struggle, there's no reason the Red Sox couldn't still make the playoffs.

[Bahstin]

Yes, I think the Sox are finished. In fact, I completely forgot about the game today. As far as anything this bad occuring, I can think of dozens. Most Sox fans knew that this team didn't have what it would take. Most of us didn't expect them to make the playoffs even before this series began, so it isn't as painful as you might imagine - at least for me.

I'll continue to watch in hopes that they prove me wrong, but I am looking forward to Pats season at this point.

[Cambridge]

As for my statement about "garbage"...I just meant, it was a perfect pitch and there was nothing more Paps could have done.

I think I clearly and unequivically stated that garbage or not I had to tip my cap to Jeter to getting it done. He always does and it was no surprise he would pull it out.

Melky's hit was legit, (he smoked it) but it was also the only solid contact anyone got on Paps.

Yes...Yes a thousand times, I thought it was ridiculous to wait until the bases were loaded. So dumb. I mean are you surprised the Red Sox have a manager who can't make intelligent, rational game time decisions? Really? That's pretty much our thing.

But thanks for trying to stamp out the one glimmer of a positive I could muster for the weekend. Thanks. Seriously, are you so spiteful about the lack of a championship since 2000 that you can't admit that Paps is the real deal?

However, I was pretty impressed with Foulke today. Who woulda thunk he could come out and look respectible. I thought he would be garbage, but he held his own. He wasn't stellar, but he hit his marks and did what he had to do.

Too bad we have the worst defensive catcher in the league. Uggg, do I hate Javy Lopez.

[Cambridge]

bahstin said:

Yes, I think the Sox are finished. In fact, I completely forgot about the game today. As far as anything this bad occuring, I can think of dozens. Most Sox fans knew that this team didn't have what it would take. Most of us didn't expect them to make the playoffs even before this series began, so it isn't as painful as you might imagine - at least for me.

I'll continue to watch in hopes that they prove me wrong, but I am looking forward to Pats season at this point.

I agree that it is surprisingly unpainful...only because we knew going in that we would get spanked. The media was ridiculous. Did they forget that we just recently got swept by the Royals and the Devil Rays? Cause we certainly didn't.

Oh and when Hinske and Javy Lopez are your big mid season acquisitions...your team sucks balls. Hinske? Lopez? If that wasn't a double whammy.