Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 19, 2006 7:58:38 GMT -5
keep those predictions comin' RDF. especially in october. by the way, despite his lack of fluidity, A-Rod's double proved to be the game winner in game 2. how about that? just out of curiosity, for RDF and any other A-Rod hater out there, who would you rather have at 3rd base that is available? Hank Blalock? Morgan Ensberg? Aubrey Huff? i'll admit that he is having a down year, and that Jeter is, IMO, this year's AL MVP, but for all the griping about A-Rod, who do you want to replace him with? or would you prefer to just pillorize him for his shortcomings until he is no longer in pinstripes? off to fenway...keep it goin randy I'll throw this out there now--will the Yankees win a game in weekend series? They are a very fragile team that anytime something doesn't go perfect, shows no signs of heart/guts. They lose games championship teams or caliber of champion win-like the White Sox games last week, and I really think their pitching is starting to slip--Wang has been awful his last two starts, Mussina is sabotaged by A-Rotten every game he pitches, and you have the bullpen overworked because of clowns like Jaret Wright--who I'm still wondering why he was signed in first place? BTW--I don't care if the A-Rod lovers continue to bash me or Stat driven fans, but let me ask this; When is the last time the so called "Best Player In Game" or "One of Best of All Time" saw the guy in front of him walked so the other team could face him with RISP and less then one out? If that's not an honest assessment of the guy's ability and fact he's overrated as a player, I don't know what is--he's in his prime and people don't even hesitate to face him--not to mention his defense is so bad he should be embarrassed to the point of asking to take balls prior to games to work on his game. Not just once either--every night at the park he should get his butt out there. It's his job and he's not doing it.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 19, 2006 11:50:50 GMT -5
keep those predictions comin' RDF. especially in october. by the way, despite his lack of fluidity, A-Rod's double proved to be the game winner in game 2. how about that? just out of curiosity, for RDF and any other A-Rod hater out there, who would you rather have at 3rd base that is available? Hank Blalock? Morgan Ensberg? Aubrey Huff? i'll admit that he is having a down year, and that Jeter is, IMO, this year's AL MVP, but for all the griping about A-Rod, who do you want to replace him with? or would you prefer to just pillorize him for his shortcomings until he is no longer in pinstripes? off to fenway...keep it goin randy Jeter is not AL MVP. Personally, I think it's really hard to argue with Ortiz as MVP, but I'd take Mauer over Jeter. He plays a harder position defensively and plays it better than Jeter plays his. He's also outhitting the Captain (.360/.439/515, v. .338/.413/.476). And you know what? I think that Morneau should be MVP before Jeter. He's hitting .318/.370/.592 and is the first Twin to hit 30 bombs since 1987. Of course, neither of those players are worshipped by the media for their "leadership" and they don't play on the East Coast either. They just play on the best team since June 1st and one that's making a run at the wild card despite losing the likely Cy Young award winner.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 19, 2006 12:03:18 GMT -5
What I find hilarious about those "bragging" on Jeter's season is that they are the same gurus/experts that are adamant that Jeter and NOT Damon should lead off for the Yankees? And my argument which has come true is that with a true leadoff man like Damon and Jeter in 2 hole--it opens up his hitting zone due to Damon being held on--and what a shock--he's hitting the ball and having a huge year in the 2 hole--as he did for the Championship teams. His defense is beyond awful this year though--his range is down to basically a soft ball hit to him or play he can charge on a hop-which he's extremely gifted at fielding and I'm a Jeter fan. As for A-Rotten---a "down" year?? Let's put it this way, I'd think of putting a Cairo in there late for DEFENSE with a lead. I don't argue A-Rotten's stats, but I do argue the man's ability to understand HOW to play baseball and what is needed in team situations. Should I be impressed by numbers? No. Look at today's game--smaller stadiums, worse pitching due to expansion of teams and everything catered to hitters. The guy plays in a lineup that is STACKED and my argument as it's been is that he's not the best player in baseball--never has been--and all you need to see is how teams approach the Yankees--they WALK other people to face him--nobody did this to Babe Ruth in the day or even Bonds in recent years, did they? I call it the Seattle Effect because Griffey's overrated backside got the mantra of "best in game" for years and yet with game on line, who would you rather face Griffey or Edgar Martinez? As for Griffey, at least his defense made him an all around player--A-Rotten is as bad as Jeter when it comes to range in field and he doesn't handle pressure well. I just want to see the guy relax and play and quit trying to make everyone happy because playing tight and trying to avoid mistakes is what causes them. I would never boo him and never have but in my head/under my breath, I just cringe anytime a ball is hit to him or he comes up with game at important stage. I mean Borat, you are so in love with the guy that you bring up his double--which I appreciated as a fan but am highly doubtful he could've hit if he were in Jeter's shoes facing Timlin with 0-2 count and Yanks down 10-8. Call me a hater but he's backed up my point more then enough since he's joined the Yankees. I will say I'd rather have A-Rod then Sheffield though--that clown is a CANCER. Move Matsui to 1b in offseason and let Sheffield go. The only thing he brings to table is hard hit FOUL BALLS and pictures/talk of 3B coach needing to wear a helmet and line up in stands due to his penchant for "drilling foul balls"--Wow, what a gift ---as for his offense--yeah it's productive--but how productive when you consider his defense gives up just as many as he drives in over course of a year--and an OF of Sheffield, Matsui, and Damon is one of the poorest you could field. Sheff at 1B would mean more errors for A-Rod and Jeter too--because the guy is just lazy--at least Matsui hustles/has his head in the game and doesn't get to balls due to lack of physical speed. Sheff must go is my new mantra and funny how the team plays better ball with BETTER DEFENSE and more versatility then when they try to outslug/put on HR displays. My predictions are notorious for going this way and it's on purpose--so I expect to see Yankees lose rest of series. You need to know that by now Borat--or should I say Sal Fasano ;D ;D ;D
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 0:38:34 GMT -5
TBird I believe position scarcity is a major factor in selecting an MVP. As such, I don't think Morneau is going to be there. I don't think Ortiz should win it this season, either, given that Thome and Giambi are in his league, and Travis Hafner is having a better year than he is. I know I'll catch hell from Sox fans screaming "ortiz is clutch" and other things along those lines. that's all well and good. tell him to pick up a glove and play first and then we'll talk. Mauer I can roll with, his only peer in the AL this year is Victor Martinez. Jeter's only peer right now is Miguel Tejada. - Borat keep those predictions comin' RDF. especially in october. by the way, despite his lack of fluidity, A-Rod's double proved to be the game winner in game 2. how about that? just out of curiosity, for RDF and any other A-Rod hater out there, who would you rather have at 3rd base that is available? Hank Blalock? Morgan Ensberg? Aubrey Huff? i'll admit that he is having a down year, and that Jeter is, IMO, this year's AL MVP, but for all the griping about A-Rod, who do you want to replace him with? or would you prefer to just pillorize him for his shortcomings until he is no longer in pinstripes? off to fenway...keep it goin randy Jeter is not AL MVP. Personally, I think it's really hard to argue with Ortiz as MVP, but I'd take Mauer over Jeter. He plays a harder position defensively and plays it better than Jeter plays his. He's also outhitting the Captain (.360/.439/515, v. .338/.413/.476). And you know what? I think that Morneau should be MVP before Jeter. He's hitting .318/.370/.592 and is the first Twin to hit 30 bombs since 1987. Of course, neither of those players are worshipped by the media for their "leadership" and they don't play on the East Coast either. They just play on the best team since June 1st and one that's making a run at the wild card despite losing the likely Cy Young award winner.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 20, 2006 1:13:28 GMT -5
TBird I believe position scarcity is a major factor in selecting an MVP. As such, I don't think Morneau is going to be there. I don't think Ortiz should win it this season, either, given that Thome and Giambi are in his league, and Travis Hafner is having a better year than he is. I know I'll catch hell from Sox fans screaming "ortiz is clutch" and other things along those lines. that's all well and good. tell him to pick up a glove and play first and then we'll talk. Mauer I can roll with, his only peer in the AL this year is Victor Martinez. Jeter's only peer right now is Miguel Tejada. - Borat I'll accept your Morneau point, however, I think that if you are using peer comparisons, that just reinforces my point that Mauer is a better player, and more valuable than Jeter. Tejada has a higher OPS than Jeter, and he plays better defense, whereas Mauer has a much higher OPS than Martinez and is a lot better defensively. The Indians are planning on moving Martinez to 1st base because he is so bad defensively, while Mauer is probably the best catcher in baseball. If Jeter wins MVP over Mauer, well, that would be proof of an east coast bias.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 1:21:28 GMT -5
RDF You sidestepped my question, as usual: who would you rather have as the Yankees third baseman that is available? I completely recognize Alex Rodriguez is having an atrocius year by his normal standards. Despite that, he is having a better offensive season than any other AL 3b except Troy Glaus...who makes A-Rod look like Mike Schmidt in the field. So...who do you want to swap him out for? Morgan Ensberg? Aubrey Huff? Send him and cash to ChiSox for Crede? Roll the dice on Scott Rolen's balky shoulder? Take a flier on Garret Atkins? Give me some ideas. And I know you're dense, but jesus, I pointed out A-Rod's double b/c you have been harping on the fact that other teams are walking people intentionally to get to A-Rod. The BoSox walked Abreu to get to him Friday. They paid the price. By the way, that A-Rotten thing is very clever. Keep it going. As for your critique of my man Sheff...not sure where that is coming from. He's produced for us in his 2 years here, finishing 2nd in MVP voting to Vlad in 2004, didn't complain when Abreu was acquired, almost sealing his option being declined, and is trying learn how to play 1b so he can come back and contribute to the team in September. How that equals "cancer" is beyond me. And his defense at first can't be any worse than Giambi or Craig Wilson's. I'll take Sheffield and his 900 OPS and "lazy" defense at first over Craig Wilson or a better gloved 1b like Doug Mientkewicz every day of the week, twice on Sunday. "Sheff must go is my new mantra and funny how the team plays better ball with BETTER DEFENSE and more versatility then when they try to outslug/put on HR displays." What on God's green earth are you talking about? You have written paragraphs and paragraphs about how A-Rod and Jeter, the entire left side of the infield, stinks on D and the team is better b/c of Melky Cabrera's defense in LF and the "versatility" his average speed on the basepaths provides? Incorrect. Here's why the Yankees win: they have the 2nd highest OBP in the league and the 5th highest slugging percentage in the league, which has led to the 2nd most runs scored in the league. If Gary Sheffield and Matsui were healthy all season, their offense would be even better, and their record would almost assuredly be better with either one of those two taking the at bats that Bubba Crosby/Aaron Guiel gave the team. More runs would probably have meant larger leads which would have saved Scott Proctor from pitching 300 innings this season. As of now, bullpen fatigue is the only thing that coud keep this Yankee team from a deep October run. Evened my record at Fenway to 1-1 today, visiting Wrigley on Monday, I am a truly blessed individual. Keep it going Moose - Borat PS - A-Rod had the GW RBI again today. Sheff at 1B would mean more errors for A-Rod and Jeter too--because the guy is just lazy--at least Matsui hustles/has his head in the game and doesn't get to balls due to lack of physical speed. Sheff must go is my new mantra and funny how the team plays better ball with BETTER DEFENSE and more versatility then when they try to outslug/put on HR displays. My predictions are notorious for going this way and it's on purpose--so I expect to see Yankees lose rest of series. You need to know that by now Borat--or should I say Sal Fasano ;D ;D ;D
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 1:39:50 GMT -5
I must contend your point that Tejada players better defense. I've watched Tejada a lot this season...there's a reason teams that were thinking of trading for him wanted to move him to 3b. Also, despite most fans seeing that Jeter is average to below average defensively, the guy has won consecutive Gold Gloves. I know managers and coaches select Gold Gloves, but I would imagine sportswriters are blind, too. That said, you've swung me around on the Mauer vote. Unfortunately for you, I don't vote for the MVP award, and, if the Twins fade, sportswriters will overlook what a fantastic year he has had due to his team's lack of a playoff berth. Vernon Wells will probably meet the same fate [he should get votes as well]. On a side note, here are the VORP standings as of 8/14/06. VORP doesn't factor in defense, but basically tells you, offensively, how many runs a player would be worth over an average replacement player at his position. 10 runs is roughly worth one win. --------------------------------------------------------------- Travis Hafner 62.4 Manny Ramirez 57.0 Grady Sizemore 56.0 Joe Mauer 54.7 Derek Jeter 53.9 Vernon Wells 53.9 David Ortiz 53.4 I'll accept your Morneau point, however, I think that if you are using peer comparisons, that just reinforces my point that Mauer is a better player, and more valuable than Jeter. Tejada has a higher OPS than Jeter, and he plays better defense, whereas Mauer has a much higher OPS than Martinez and is a lot better defensively. The Indians are planning on moving Martinez to 1st base because he is so bad defensively, while Mauer is probably the best catcher in baseball. If Jeter wins MVP over Mauer, well, that would be proof of an east coast bias.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Aug 20, 2006 8:24:03 GMT -5
Borat, how is Travis Hafner having a better year than Ortiz. Ortiz has more hrs, rbi and runs scored not to mention that Ortiz has single handedly won the Red Sox a dozen games. Plus Ortiz plays for a contender while Hafner plays for the woefully underachieving Indians. As far as Thome is concerned, White Sox fans (of which i am one) would probably place him third as team mvp behind Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko. Morneau and Mauer both deserve consideration but right now my vote is for Ortiz.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 20, 2006 11:05:28 GMT -5
RDF You sidestepped my question, as usual: who would you rather have as the Yankees third baseman that is available? I completely recognize Alex Rodriguez is having an atrocius year by his normal standards. Despite that, he is having a better offensive season than any other AL 3b except Troy Glaus...who makes A-Rod look like Mike Schmidt in the field. So...who do you want to swap him out for? Morgan Ensberg? Aubrey Huff? Send him and cash to ChiSox for Crede? Roll the dice on Scott Rolen's balky shoulder? Take a flier on Garret Atkins? Give me some ideas. And I know you're dense, but jesus, I pointed out A-Rod's double b/c you have been harping on the fact that other teams are walking people intentionally to get to A-Rod. The BoSox walked Abreu to get to him Friday. They paid the price. By the way, that A-Rotten thing is very clever. Keep it going. As for your critique of my man Sheff...not sure where that is coming from. He's produced for us in his 2 years here, finishing 2nd in MVP voting to Vlad in 2004, didn't complain when Abreu was acquired, almost sealing his option being declined, and is trying learn how to play 1b so he can come back and contribute to the team in September. How that equals "cancer" is beyond me. And his defense at first can't be any worse than Giambi or Craig Wilson's. I'll take Sheffield and his 900 OPS and "lazy" defense at first over Craig Wilson or a better gloved 1b like Doug Mientkewicz every day of the week, twice on Sunday. "Sheff must go is my new mantra and funny how the team plays better ball with BETTER DEFENSE and more versatility then when they try to outslug/put on HR displays." What on God's green earth are you talking about? You have written paragraphs and paragraphs about how A-Rod and Jeter, the entire left side of the infield, stinks on D and the team is better b/c of Melky Cabrera's defense in LF and the "versatility" his average speed on the basepaths provides? Incorrect. Here's why the Yankees win: they have the 2nd highest OBP in the league and the 5th highest slugging percentage in the league, which has led to the 2nd most runs scored in the league. If Gary Sheffield and Matsui were healthy all season, their offense would be even better, and their record would almost assuredly be better with either one of those two taking the at bats that Bubba Crosby/Aaron Guiel gave the team. More runs would probably have meant larger leads which would have saved Scott Proctor from pitching 300 innings this season. As of now, bullpen fatigue is the only thing that coud keep this Yankee team from a deep October run. Evened my record at Fenway to 1-1 today, visiting Wrigley on Monday, I am a truly blessed individual. Keep it going Moose - Borat PS - A-Rod had the GW RBI again today. Sheff at 1B would mean more errors for A-Rod and Jeter too--because the guy is just lazy--at least Matsui hustles/has his head in the game and doesn't get to balls due to lack of physical speed. Sheff must go is my new mantra and funny how the team plays better ball with BETTER DEFENSE and more versatility then when they try to outslug/put on HR displays. My predictions are notorious for going this way and it's on purpose--so I expect to see Yankees lose rest of series. You need to know that by now Borat--or should I say Sal Fasano ;D ;D ;D You give me Crede for A-Rod, I do it in a heartbeat-for defense alone. He'll also hit some HR's and give you RBI's enough that you'll not miss A-Rotten and his defense would make 3B better and Jeter better because Crede has range. I realize A-Rotten would move to SS, but who cares? He's got the range of a legless turtle anyway and Jeter isn't much better, so that improves the team. Sheffield is a CANCER. Period. Every announcer, including those who cover the team mention the improved team chemistry, improved defense in the OF--that is a fact--in the OF the defense is improved and if you can't see that you are blind. Look at this way on Sheffield--a guy with his abilities has modeled a LOT of uniforms and not because he doesn't produce--it's because he's a headache. Sheffield is saying all of the right things for one reason-he wants that option picked up and if he doesn't get that from Yankees, he's not going to get the $$ on open market and he knows this. Melky Cabrera is providing better all around play in the OF then Matsui or Sheffield. He's younger, cheaper, and my question is if these two are so valuable, why is the team at the same win total they had a year ago or on same pace without their services?? The best teams in recent baseball history had people like Ricky Ledee, Chad Curtis, Shane Spencer playing LF, and Scott Brosius at 3B. It doesn't take a team of "stars" to win--it takes a TEAM--guys who don't bitch about where they are put in the lineup and put themselves ahead of the team. Sheffield's move appears to be about the "team" but think about it--it's money driven and desperate--he's older, off steriods, and when these guys who used the HGH or Steriods can't use it anymore--they break down. They didn't use the stuff to improve performance, they did it to keep their old butts in the lineup and prevent injuries--it's why the Owners and Selig played dumb. You take baseball very seriously and that's cool. It's obvious you know some things about the sport. But you have no idea what makes a TEAM and the make up in the clubhouse and little things that add to a team and win games. Gary Sheffield is a fine hitter. He is a terrible defensive player. He's a guy who isn't liked by teammates and never has been. That doesn't mean you can't win games with him-but it's hard to win a Championship with people like him who put themselves ahead of the team. Matsui doesn't do that--he's just slow footed and a terrible OF. It's a better fit for 1B--he's got extension already signed, he's tall enough--6'2, and he does what he's told. As for A-Rotten, game winning hits are more "stats". As I said, I WANT Rodriguez to succeed and do well, but that stat is a joke. it's a bit different hitting early in a game then late and if you don't believe that--ask guys who play or have played. This is where statistical analysis is wrong--plain and simple. Some guys press and try too hard and others relax and just play. It's same for pitchers and why some people can close and others can't. Let's put it this way--if Paplebon was starting and not in the closer's role--is Boston even within a sniff of Division lead? I say they are double digits behind with the amount of close games they've won late that aren't even the games he's saved. If you want to get on me for not believing in A-Rod, fine. Sheffield too-- but don't act like I'm completely unfounded and don't know the game, just because it differs in your opinion. I'm sorry I didn't answer the question--I thought I was limited to the garbage you provided for options, since you could give me anyone--I'll take Joe Crede over A-Rod and throw in some of Chicago's prospects or someone like Neil Cotts or Matt Thornton and we've got a deal. A-Rod statistically is a better player, but Crede/Cotts or Thornton would be more valuable to Yankees defensively/pitching wise and that is how you win games in the postseason.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 11:20:33 GMT -5
If Ortiz has singlehandedly won the Red Sox 12 games, how many has he lost for them all by himself? Does his woeful showing this series make him culpable for any or all 3 losses thus far? Walkoff hits do not equal singlehanded victories just as for 0 for 4 days do not constitute individual losses. Hafner's line: 305 BA, 430 OBP, 643 SLG, 1.073 OPS, 37 HRs, 109 RBIs, 89 runs Ortiz's line: 284 BA, 398 OBP, 622 SLG, 1.020 OPS, 43 HRs, 116 RBIs, 91 runs I don't think RBIs are a great indicator of anything given they are a product of who bats in front of you, but even if you put great stock in them, Hafner isn't too far off. Runs scored is a product of who bats behind you, and I think we can all agree that Manny Ramirez is a lot more dangerous than Victor Martinez. Despite that, Hafner trails Ortiz by 2 runs scored. And even with the edge in HRs, Hafner is still outslugging Papi. All this while playing in Jacobs field while Ortiz plays in Fenway. Hafner may play for an underachiever, but he is certainly not the reason that team has disappointed this season. Hafner is having a better season - he may be the most underappreciated player in the game. Borat, how is Travis Hafner having a better year than Ortiz. Ortiz has more hrs, rbi and runs scored not to mention that Ortiz has single handedly won the Red Sox a dozen games. Plus Ortiz plays for a contender while Hafner plays for the woefully underachieving Indians. As far as Thome is concerned, White Sox fans (of which i am one) would probably place him third as team mvp behind Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko. Morneau and Mauer both deserve consideration but right now my vote is for Ortiz.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Aug 20, 2006 11:24:07 GMT -5
I'll still take Ortiz. Cleveland is 23 1/2 games out of first place. Last year when Cleveland had a chance to win the division, they folded. Who cares how well a guy hits when the games are meaningless.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 12:26:34 GMT -5
RDF
I swore to myself I'd never entertain another baseball debate with you when you claimed that Alfonso Soriano volunteered to move to the OF to remain in pinstripes - a lie you grabbed out of thin air to build your case against A-Rod. [if you're willing to provide a source, do it now]. Alas, I have gone back on that, and it is giving me a migraine.
Where to begin...for one, Joe Crede is a step down from Alex Rodriguez. I'm not going to get into this. Joe Crede is a fine young player, but a good offensive year from Alex Rodriguez outweighs any perceived upgrade in defense Crede provides. And I think A-rod's defense in 04 and 05 was pretty good. He's been a nightmare this year. Still, the White Sox would do that in a heartbeat. The Yankees would be crazy to.
On to your Sheffield points. Well, to begin with, just because you put a word in caps and follow it with the word "period" in a single sentence doesn't make what preceded it true. ie "The Easter Bunny is REAL. Period." Ok, now that I have established that, who gives a rat's arse what sportswriters think about the yankee clubhouse and its chemsitry? Philly sportswriters HATED Bobby Abreu, questioning his heart and his effort. He's been a saint in pinstripes thus far. Which one is the true abreu? Also, Sheffield was traveling with the team on some trips before his rehab assignment began. Did his presence undermine the team? The answer's no. The Florida Marlins did win a World Series with his cancerous presence in the clubhouse, Sheffield posting a 421 OBP in that WS, far and away the team's best offensive player. How did they do it with Gary in the clubhouse?! Reggie Jackson wore a lot of uniforms too. He was HATED by his Yankee teammates in 1977. That worked out pretty well for us, dontcha think? People forget about how much of an arse Reggie was. Why is that? He produced. Production always trumps chemistry. Manny Ramirez was a cancer in Boston with all of his antics. Now they won a WS...it's Manny being Manny.
I will grant you that the Yankees OF defense is better with Melky in LF and Abreu in RF [tho Bernie in RF was a wash with Sheff]. However, if Melky were putting up Bubba Crosby #s at the plate, he wouldn't be considered for the 25 man roster next season. His offense is what is keeping him up. IMO, he'll be the 4th OF next season, spelling Hideki to allow him to DH a couple of days a week.
As for the explanation of how the Yankees record is the same without Matsui and Sheffield...c'mon man. You are ignoring Jeter and Posada's seasons, a full season of a healthy Giambi, the injection of Johnny Damon to the lineup, Bernie William's shocking rebound, Mike Mussina's brilliance, Chien Ming Wang's health/emergence, Randy Johnson's competence...not to mention factors among the rest of the league. The Yanks staff ERA is currenly almost 2 tenths better this season than it was last season. Oh man, me and my goofy "stats" again. You're right. Chemistry. Grit. Hustle. Determination. Melky. Bubba. Gueil!
As for A-Rotten, game winning hits are more stats
Stats are a record of the game. Don't be afraid of them. I believe Alex Rodriguez has the most game winning RBI in the league this season. I think he's batting 290 or so with runners in scoring position. I am of the opinion that a run in the 2nd inning counts the same as a run in the 9th, unless we're playing with the rock n jock ten run ball. And, in a down year, he's still on pace to hit 35, drive in 120, and OPS 900+. Crazy stats again, I know, but despite what you think about the inflated numbers of the game today due to smaller parks, worse pitching, etc etc...his numbers are still better than most at his position. He was better than anyone at any position last season - he carried the Yanks to the playoffs with a monstrous August and September. Look it up, OPS's of 1.162 in August, 986 in September. The Yanks clinched the division in Boston led by a 4 for 5 day at the plate by Mr Rodriguez on October 2nd. I remember this because I was there. Cancerous Gary pitched in too! And don't get me started on his October numbers, I've already made 2 four page posts about it in another thread. The Cliff Notes version is this: since joining the Yankees, Alex Rodriguez has outplayed Derek Jeter in 2 of the 3 postseason series they have played in together. A-Rod's series vs Anaheim last year was not in the same stratosphere of terrible that Jeter's 2004 series vs the Red Sox was.
If you want to get on me for not believing in A-Rod, fine. Sheffield too-- but don't act like I'm completely unfounded and don't know the game, just because it differs in your opinion.
I get on you for being entirely too stubborn and married to Joe Morgan philosophy. When I call you out for said Morganisms, you throw a bunch of words out in caps and tell me about how you played college ball or something. I'm very impressed. Amazingly, Brian Cashman has architected multiple World Series champions despite this lack of experience. Theo Epstein is doing pretty well, too. Face it brotherman, the statistical revolution has begun. Assimilate or root for Dusty Baker.
Now, about Soriano volunteering himself to the outfield to stay with the Yankees...
- Borat
PS - the Red Sox would have been better off with Papelbon as a STARTER. Period. Throwing 200 innings instead of throwing 70 innings would have helped the team more.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 12:30:08 GMT -5
You can't punish a guy b/c he wasn't blessed with 100 million plus in talent around him. TBird has convinced me that Mauer should be the MVP. If the Twinkies miss the playoffs and he loses to Jeter b/c Jeter plays for a winner, that's kind of silly. Same philosophy with Hafner and Ortiz. Hafner OPS'd .965 last August and 1.068 last September. In the last 2 games of the season he hit 375 as the Indians playoff hopes vanished. Don't put it on him. Also, please addess the "singlehanded" wins and losses point. If there is a way to win games by yourself, there has to be a way to lose games by yourself. Please illustrate. I'll still take Ortiz. Cleveland is 23 1/2 games out of first place. Last year when Cleveland had a chance to win the division, they folded. Who cares how well a guy hits when the games are meaningless.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Aug 20, 2006 12:53:50 GMT -5
Hafner is a great player but he doesn't deserve the MVP. Cleveland has plenty of talent and many expected them to contend for the division but they just haven't played well. I'm not a big believer in giving the MVP to a player on a losing team, especially one that has WOEFULLY underachieved. To the victor go the spoils. Mauer, he's playing on a team that's going to be contending for a playoff spot probably till the last week of the season, so no matter what, he's a deserving candidate for the MVP. As far as Ortiz, yes, he hasn't singlehandedly won games but he has come through in some very big situations. The guy has carried Boston. You know it, i know it and RDF knows it. Give Ortiz some credit.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
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Post by Cambridge on Aug 20, 2006 13:09:35 GMT -5
Miserable series thus far. We should of let our spot starter hang out to dry in that first game and not go to the bullpen...now we are tanked just like I feared we would be.
On Ortiz v. whomever for MVP. While Ortiz is having a great year...Manny is having a monster year. It's too bad that he is overshadowed by ortiz, he is percieved as lazy, and his occasional defensive snafus, so he'll never win an MVP. But here is my case for him:
1) he is the reason Ortiz gets pitched to in the first place...so he's indirectly responsible for all those walkoffs 2) outisde of HRs and RBIs, he is actually having a slightly better year statistically (.327 BA, .438 OBP, .633 SLG, 34HR, 99 RBI) than Ortiz (.284 BA, .398 OBP, .622 SLG, 43 HR, 116 RBI) 3) he's actually having a decent defensive year..., he has 7 assists, 1 error and sports a .994 fielding %, those numbers are better than Andruw Jones, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, and Ichiro Suzuki. Not saying he is gold glove calibre or that he even gets close to the same number of playable balls as the other players...but he is consistently underated as a defender and he is having a great year. 4) and perhaps most importantly, Manny plays a unique role on the Sox...in the vicious media world of New England, Manny manages to absorb nearly all the negative press with his almost harmless, sometimes endearing, but persistently frustrating brain farts...and yet, it NEVER affects him. He is immune to the negativity.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Aug 20, 2006 13:10:02 GMT -5
Borat and RDF, as far as Crede and Arod are concerned, i can say with confidence that there is no way that the White Sox would trade Crede for Arod. No way. That's not because Crede is a better player than Arod (let's get real RDF. I'm a huge Crede fan but he's not the same overall player as Arod) but because Crede's salary is a fraction of Arod's. Crede made 400K last year and 2.6 mill this year.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 13:45:18 GMT -5
Bridge Thanks for joining the fray, as you are preaching to the choir. Manny has been bananas this season and, IMO, is the Sox MVP. I'd go Manny > Ortiz > Schilling > Papelbon > Youkilis as the 5 most indispensable Sox this year. And Manny has done his thing without a whole lot of protection in the lineup
Testify!
- Borat
Miserable series thus far. We should of let our spot starter hang out to dry in that first game and not go to the bullpen...now we are tanked just like I feared we would be. On Ortiz v. whomever for MVP. While Ortiz is having a great year...Manny is having a monster year. It's too bad that he is overshadowed by ortiz, he is percieved as lazy, and his occasional defensive snafus, so he'll never win an MVP. But here is my case for him: 1) he is the reason Ortiz gets pitched to in the first place...so he's indirectly responsible for all those walkoffs 2) outisde of HRs and RBIs, he is actually having a slightly better year statistically (.327 BA, .438 OBP, .633 SLG, 34HR, 99 RBI) than Ortiz (.284 BA, .398 OBP, .622 SLG, 43 HR, 116 RBI) 3) he's actually having a decent defensive year..., he has 7 assists, 1 error and sports a .994 fielding %, those numbers are better than Andruw Jones, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, and Ichiro Suzuki. Not saying he is gold glove calibre or that he even gets close to the same number of playable balls as the other players...but he is consistently underated as a defender and he is having a great year. 4) and perhaps most importantly, Manny plays a unique role on the Sox...in the vicious media world of New England, Manny manages to absorb nearly all the negative press with his almost harmless, sometimes endearing, but persistently frustrating brain farts...and yet, it NEVER affects him. He is immune to the negativity.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Aug 20, 2006 13:53:16 GMT -5
Soriano did volunteer to play the OF to stay with the Yankees--this comes from someone who knows Cashman and has spoken to him numerous times. Believe it or not, having played baseball and had opportunities at the Minor League level does have some advantages. To get something, you have to give up something and that's what happened there. Crede is an upgrade over A-Rod at 3B. He's younger, a better defensive player and his offensive contribution--including this year in a comparably talented offense wouldn't be a dramatic downgrade--especially if it brings you more talent in return which Rodriguez's departure would certainly do. It's about building a CHAMPIONSHIP team, not a great offensive team with great statistics. Stats are necessary but you can manipulate them--you can't manipulate chemistry or a team of guys who know how to play the game and are willing to do little things to win. They are necessary and it's why people like Jose Viscaino, Luis Sojo, Joe Girardi, Chad Curtis, and so on have helped the Yankees win titles in the past. Are they great? No. But they know their roles on a team and fit in. That is very important. As far as Crede, I'd take his production and defense. Defense is important to winning a title. Offense and payroll can help get you to October but it takes defense and pitching to win Titles. I don't dispute that A-Rod and Sheffield can get you there, but I just believe you can replace them and be as good/better. If A-Rod brings more talent in, you are a better team--especially with a Crede as his replacement at 3B. The dropoff is also with you factoring in that Rodriguez continues to ascend and not decline which is going to be interesting for Stat driven people considering that HGH and Steriods will continue to be tested for and eliminated from the game. As for chemistry--that is something only ball players understand and sorry--you aren't going to get me to apologize or take that back. I am an idiot who actually believes David Ortiz is a better hitter then A-Rod and someone I'd rather have up in the late innings then Rodriguez. I actually believe that he has won some games with clutch hitting and I think numbers back that up. I also believe that good defense saves pitchers from throwing more pitches and if you give Major League teams more outs, you will get hurt by it. Pablebon throwing 200 innings doesn't help if he gives way to that bullpen and then you have no closer. So you are someone who thinks Rivera would've been more effective for Yankees as a Starter too? How does that differ? You need guys who excel at roles on a team and you can't just plug people in who stats say can do it--some guys are hammered more times you see them and yet you see them one time around and they are all world. So Pablebon's dominance late in a game isn't as valuable as if he started, gave up runs, and then turned game over to a crappy bullpen with no closer--which Red Sox had in '03? Yankees era isn't changed much because their staff isn't good, but their bullpen is better. Villone, Myers, Proctor, Farnsworth, is a better pen and has helped them--but their numbers aren't great because of overwork and a marginal Starting Staff--due to age (Johnson) and mediocre 4/5 starters. Mussina and Wang have been good--yet the defense has saved many extra pitches and games by simply being able to get to balls that an older Sheffield and limited Matsui can't get to. You make fun of Guiel but the guy won 2 games for the Yankees in Texas this year that Sheffield lets the ball drop in front of him and Rangers score multiple runs in. I dont' ignore stats as being worthless--they do come into play but when they are the main focal point of your assessment, it's going too far. They don't factor in things that only people who played understand. Ask any fan of the Yankees who they'd rather have up in the 9th down 2 runs with bases loaded and 2 outs and see where Alex Rodriguez's name comes up? These are the people who watch the team daily and see the players/games. Now ask if they mind him coming up in situation with game in 4th/5th inning? Most of his "game winning" hits come early on--I don't care--it helps the team and that's good--but it's not like Ortiz who has done it consistently over the past 3 years in late innings when the game is decided. Some guys handle pressure better then others and it's why closers are valuable as are certain hitters. Sheffield's World Series triumph came in '97--now forgive me for being skeptical, but I think Sheffield was a much more gifted player back then and if we're going to judge players on ability to win a World Title--then Joe Crede for A-Rod is a steal because he's got one--and his defensive upgrade would matter. It sure mattered when Brosius was able to make plays that saved pitchers from throwing extra pitches/team getting extra outs. Slugfests add up over course of a year and in the Playoffs, it's the team who can execute simple plays and make the plays they should that win--see A-Rod's performance against the Angels last year--he boots the ball in Game 2 and it turned an entire series around. Crede/Brosius make that play in their sleep. Little things in Postseason add up quickly. A-Rod not getting in a runner from 3rd with a 1 run lead in top of 9th of Game 4 in '04 was as important to losing as Mo having to pitch more innings due to Tom Gordon being worthless. Aaron Boone's failure in Game 5 of World Series in '03 was similar--it wasn't Weaver who lost the game--it was missed opportunties from people who don't perform under pressure. You choose to mock my days as a player and while I was never good enough to make it, I did play the game and was successful enough to get a look from Big League teams. I don't think you need to play to understand the sport, but you do to understand the business side and dynamic of what makes a team successful. You see it in every sport--there are guys on Hoyas teams under Esherick that admitted missing FT's on purpose to avoid getting subbed out--would a view who keeps stats think of that? Same with ballplayers and even worse when money is involved. Sheffield showed his dedication to the team by gaining weight with a broken wrist--are his legs broken? Why can't he run/stay in shape with a broken wrist? Cardio is not going to hurt him. He "accepted/supported" the trade-well what choice did he have? He's talked of moving to 1B for $$$--plain and simple and if you can't see that--you don't understand the business side of the game. The guy was, is, and always will be about himself--which is not a harm in terms of production but is when it comes to being on a team. He is about himself and without Yankees in mix, who will pay him same amount of money?? For a DH who is old?? I find it funny how irate it makes you that I mentioned I played the game--it's not to brag, just to bring some perspective on how players view the game a bit different then some fans/executives. That's not saying players are always right/smarter--plenty aren't, but they do understand some dynamics and you are absolutely right on not having to get along--off the field but on the field/in clubhouse you have a chemistry--on how you approach the game and it's important. A's of '70's are best example--they hated each other but played the game as one--everyone sacrificed and was about the team--same with Yankees with Reggie--who had the drunk Billy Martin as his main problem--but Reggie Jackson produced championships for New York and to compare him to A-Rod is ridiculous. Alex Rodriguez is the poster boy for Statistics vs Old School point of view. Stat driven people love his numbers and point out things that aren't even acknowledged by players--now their agents are a different story --All I know is that if I''m behind 6-5 in 4th inning, I don't view that as a game winning hit because a game doesn't end until the final out--when I'm ahead of you 6-5 in 9th and there are 2 outs and game is going to end either way--that is a game winning/game deciding situation. I'll take Ortiz, Manny, Mauer, as big name guys and then people who put the ball in play over A-Rod. Just by what I've seen and feel--and obviously others feel the same--they continue to pitch to him and it's not all because of him--just out of respect of people around him--but if you are supposedly the best in the sport they do NOT do this. Which was, is, and will be my argument against him. You can replace an Alex Rodriguez, you can't replace an Ortiz for what he does for that team. You trade Papi for Crede and that's a terrible trade--you give Yankees Crede for A-Rod and it's not going to change the team in a negative way--actually might improve them.
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Hank Scorpio
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You're gonna die now!
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 13:54:21 GMT -5
I understand your points, sleepy, but I don't think you can punish one guy for an entire team's subpar season. Especially one guy who has been as monstrous an offensive force as Pronk has. I know they stink, but their pitching staff is pretty horrendous and they play in the best division in baseball. Apologies if I came across as discrediting Ortiz - the guy is having a great offensive season. But so are a lot of DHs - including Hafner. The walkoff hits are great, he certainly has a flair for the dramatic. That said, to say he has carried Boston is a bit dramatic, especially considering Manny Ramirez is no slouch. Hafner is a great player but he doesn't deserve the MVP. Cleveland has plenty of talent and many expected them to contend for the division but they just haven't played well. I'm not a big believer in giving the MVP to a player on a losing team, especially one that has WOEFULLY underachieved. To the victor go the spoils. Mauer, he's playing on a team that's going to be contending for a playoff spot probably till the last week of the season, so no matter what, he's a deserving candidate for the MVP. As far as Ortiz, yes, he hasn't singlehandedly won games but he has come through in some very big situations. The guy has carried Boston. You know it, i know it and RDF knows it. Give Ortiz some credit.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Aug 20, 2006 15:12:07 GMT -5
Awesome. Dude, you're awesome.
a few things:
1) you're lying about Soriano. stop it. you're embarrassing yourself with your mysterious Cashman source. What did Soriano do when he was traded to Washington, by the way? oh right, threaten to sit out if they made him play LF. also, back when you made the claim, you said it was common knowledge that Soriano would move. Now it's a friend of a friend who knows Brian Cashman? Lying on the internet is pathetic.
2) A-Rod's been here 2 years. Same with Sheffield. Do you think you can give them more than 2 years before holding them to the Reggie standard of "clubhouse cancer but AOK b/c he won a title". Reggie, by the way, batted 127 in the 1977 ALCS. Had his teammates not helped him out, perhaps you'd be singing a different tune about him.
3) Crede is not an upgrade over A-Rod. This isn't even a discussion worth having.
4) Jose Vizcaino was a bench player. So was Luis Sojo. Never in a million years would you want them as a starter. Same reason you wouldn't start Miguel Cairo. You wouldn't play any of them over A-rod. Stop it. Also, Chad Curtis was a Yankee starter for 2 seasons. They lost to the Tribe in 97, and he started in LF for the Yanks in 98 - where his 243 batting average and grit would certainly not have been upgraded by a player like Manny Ramirez. Also, he was the most shunned man in the Yankee clubhouse for calling out Derek Jeter for talking to A-Rod during a Mariners/Yankees brawl. By all accounts, he was a jerk, and he was run out of town. Stop it.
5) Pitching and defense are certainly important to winning a title. However, I'd still take A-Rod over Eric Chavez and Joe Crede, 2 arguably better defenders. Just about everyone would.
6) Are you insinuating A-Rod uses HGH/steroids? Do you know someone who knows someone who knows someone that knows the urine analyst? do tell. otherwise, that's a pretty hefty charge
7) Your esoteric chemistry wisdom is awesome. I wish I was a former ballplayer so I could understand such a concept. how do you feel about Barry Bonds? if the Giants bullpen closes it out in 2002 and Bonds wins World Series MVP while posting a 2000 OPS, do they win b/c they played as one? or b/c barry bonds carried them, despite being a colossal jerk?
8) Riddle me this Batman - if defense is so important, and A-Rod has 22 errors at 3b and Derek Jeter is abysmal at SS...how is the Yanks record better now than last season? Damon has been awesome, Melky pretty much average, and RF has been a disaster until Abreu came in. How does a ground ball pitcher like Wang actually get by with such a horrendous infield?! This is so exhausting. I know giving opponents extra outs is bad. However, you're implying that A-Rod's defense this season is indicative of his whole career. He was, bar none, the best defensive SS in the AL before he came to NY. He was pretty good at 3b the past 2 seasons. He stinks this year. And you're willing to judge his value as a player based on this season, which, judging by his past and current age, is probably an aberration?
9) Rivera was a starter to begin with. They moved him to the pen b/c they didn't think his arm would hold up over 200 innings. That was necessity more than anything. Papelbon will probably return to the rotation next season. He is a starter they made into a closer. And if they would have started Papelbon 30 times instead of throwing Kyle Snyder, Jason Johnson, and god knows who else out there, they'd probably be a few wins better than they are now. Saves are an overrated stat - it isn't that difficult to get 3 outs before the other team scores 3 runs. Papelbon has been a magnificent closer, best in the league. But given that the Sox rotation has been Curt Schilling and 4 guys who are terrible, Papelbon may have had greater impact as a starter. We'll see what happens next season.
10) You said Sheffield was a cancer and his attitude would affect the Yankees and make it more difficult to win a title. The Marlins won with Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla, and Kevin Brown. How's that for chemistry? One would think, given the personalities in that clubhouse, they would have all killed eachother. But alas, they won the whole thing. My point, as usual, is that any perceived clubhouse problems are trumped by performance on the field. Those 3 are considered among the worst "teammates" of the past 15 years by baseball "experts". Results?
11) I don't care that you played baseball. Stop bringing it up. It doesn't make me irate or anything like that. It just isn't relevant. Joe Morgan is in the HoF and he doesn't know anything. I laugh everytime you bring it up. I'm sure others do too. I also laugh when you say things like "the A's and Yankees of the 70s hated each other but played as one". That is some crap John Kruk says. Were the Yankees "playing as one" when Reggie hit 3 HRs in the one WS game? Or was Reggie just being a bad mamajama? Did Willie Randolph's grit inspire him from the bench? Baseball is, at its heart, a one on one matchup between pitcher and batter. The team that wins these individual battles wins the game. Joe Crede's ability to execute a 5-3 putout is not more valuable than a guy that hits 321/421/1031 in a season, as A-Rod did last year. Let's trade him to the Angels in a 3 way deal to get us Crede and Erstad!
12) Speaking of which, can you link us with your personal baseball reference page? I want to see what kind of player you were.
I'm leaving for Chicago. Good day to all of you.
- Borat
PS - borrowed from ken tremendous and Co
True Yankee A leader. A guy who’s full of intangible qualities that help him triumph – with class. Derek Jeter. A guy who has a certain look in his eye, like he knows what it means to don the pinstripes with some motherfletching pride. Bernie. Mantle. Joe D. Jeter. A guy who you want in the trenches with you. Mattingly. Joe Girardi. Derek. Jim Leyritz. Posada. Derek Jeter. A guy who stares adversity in the face and says, “I play for the Yankees, and that means something, and I am going to hit a HR off BK Kim in this World Series Game because I am a New York Yankee." Scott Brosius. Tino. Dave Justice. Derek Jeter. A winner. Derek Jeter.
Here are some people who are not True Yankees: Alex Rodriguez, Mike Mussina, Jason Giambi, Alfonso Soriano, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, and every other New York Yankee who has never been on a Yankees’ World Series winning team.
If you ever – ever – hear someone use the phrase “True Yankee,” for any reason, I want you to find the nearest exit, form an orderly line, and leave the premises quickly and calmly. Seek shelter. Cover head. Report the incident to your nearest FJM representative immediately. You are in great danger, because the person you are talking to is an idiot.
Darin Erstad A former punter at the University of Nebraska who had one good year for the Angels, signed a huge contract, and stinks at baseball, despite the strident arguments of hundreds of sportswriters who continue to talk about how important he is to the Angels and how he’s intense and a leader and the Angels would be nowhere without him. Trust us: he stinks at baseball.
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