Ramell v. DJ - who should start?

[HoyaSox04]

Ramell v. DJ - the big question...

It's a question of more why does DJ start when Ramell is obviously playing better and bringing more to the court overall (as evidenced by his playing nearly the entire 2nd half and being on the court as the Hoyas fended off the comeback from PSU). Is there any rhyme or reason to this? I know DJ was a solid player for us last year, and does have very good skills, but I mean, what good is it doing us not starting Ramell when he should be in the starting 5?

Wouldn't the team be better served with DJ coming in off the bench to spare Ramell/Ashanti/Brandon? What are people's thoughts? I know with the rotation the way it is, it probably doesnt matter, but I feel like we could be a much better starting team (the 17-0 run against PSU aside) with Ramrod in there.

[MCIGuy]

Did you actually just write that it could be a much better starting lineup with Ross instead of DJ? Much better? I didn't know Ross was now Reggie Williams.

Look, I am not even being a DJ apologist when I write there is not one thing that Ross does better than Owens on the court. Perhaps Ross' stats are better AFTER FOUR GAMES but I don't think he is necessarily any more of a difference maker than Owens would be. I'm happy Ross is finally healthy and hopefully he'll stay that way. But when I think about tweaking the Hoyas lineup I think of perhaps putting another big man on the floor. What I'm not concerned with is whether Ross starts because frankly in the long run I don't think it will have a more positive result tha if Owens stayed in there.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Haven't been able to get to any games yet (though I'll be remedying that with some friends tomorrow night), but is it a matchup issue?

Not sure who else is usually out on the floor with Ross, but does he provide the same coverage ability of an opposing SF that DJ would. I feel like he might be giving up some height and wingspan, which is the only thing that I can think of.

[HoyaSox04]

From watching the games, I truly believe Ramell is providing better defense than DJ does - DJ seems to get down on himself real easy when his shots arent falling and it affects him on the defensive end. Also, Ramell plays with more intensity than DJ does, an obvious plus on both sides of the ball. If you watch the games, it just seems like Ramell's court vision is better: in the offense, his cuts are sharper, his passes are better (although DJ has been very impressive in this area), and his awareness of the game just makes it seem like he is on a higher level than DJ. Dont have actual stats to point to this, but from watching, that's what it seems like.

MCIguy, I dont know if youre watching the same games as everyone else, but we definitely played our best ball of the Temple game when Ramell was on the court - I posted saying that exact same thing after the Temple game. Also, Ramell was in there when it counted yesterday, as we had to pull ourselves back from blowing the 17 point lead. Granted, DJ was on the court for that opening run, but that run was all Jeff/BB/J-Dubs and DJ/Ashanti really didnt have much to do with it. Also, when you claim you want to put another big man on the floor, do YOU really think that we are a better team with Roy/Amadou/Sead on the court, than with Ramell? Cause if you are, you must be on some SERIOUS drugs or something...

When teams start playing us zone again (which they will, still have no idea why PSU didnt), we are not gonna want Roy in there against that zone because he cant move against it. His post up moves are adequate at best now, although they should improve, but his passing is not great and he is slower than anyone I can think of in recent memory. What we are going to need are slashing, good-moving guards and forwards who can cut through the zone, make passes and hit their shots (as long as they are not layups, Ramell can hit them...). His presence, and DJ's presence, present a much better matchup for us on the floor vs. a zone defense than the big men. Plus, none of the teams we are going to face this year, to my knowledge, have a legit starting center - they all possess players about Jeff's size and without his ability, although I could be wrong. We aren't going to be matched up poorly against a team if we go with a smaller unit, and one that will definitely play to our strengths (ball movement, passing, etc) instead of to our weaknesses (posting up, games played in the paint).

And that's why I think Ramell should be starting.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Thanks for the heads up -- I look forward to seeing both of them pull off a defensive lockdown tomorrow night!

[MCIGuy]

HoyaSox430 said:

Also, when you claim you want to put another big man on the floor, do YOU really think that we are a better team with Roy/Amadou/Sead on the court, than with Ramell? Cause if you are, you must be on some SERIOUS drugs or something...

The point is you are goinmg to need to get a lot more possessions in these early with Green working alongside with another big man. Green can't be the only big man on the court for the Hoyas 90% of the time during Big East games. If you think the Hoyas can win under those circumstances then you are nuts.

Since you have brought up lineups in which the Hoyas have looked their best, it was clear from all indications that when Green and Hibbert were on the floor TOGETHER against Temple the Hoyas were able to do their most damage inside gainst the Owls as well as make their best run at Temple.


And one criticism for JT3 early on there is absolute no need to have a bunch of slashing guards and forwards on the floor if none of them actually slash to the hoop with the rock in their hands. Why recruit a bunch of guys like Spann and Edgerson if they are not going to attack the hoop? The Hoyas are not going to the FT line enough and that's a problem they ned to work on . Yesterday.

I read somewhere that JT3 looked displeased when Bowman drove to the hoop and picked up a foul, suggesting JT3 wanted Bowman to either pass the ball around more or take a jumper. Bowman's first step is too good for him to simply take perimeter shots or backdoor cuts all game long.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

I read that comment, too, and I took it to mean something along the lines of coach thinking that particularly play was a selfish play (or as many on this board have said in the past -- bad Brandon), and that III wasn't happy with what he saw as Brandon putting himself ahead of the team on that play. But that's just this one man's (uninformed) read of the quote.

[the_way]

I think Ramell is good coming off the bench. He brings a lot of things to the table, that are suitable for coming off the bench. I think it is to early now to make a change. DJ is an enigma to me. He has talent, but just has "brain farts" on the court sometimes,i.e., leaving McNamara go before he hit the game-winning three against Syracuse. I think its more of a concentration thing with him, the talent is there, he just needs to focus, and be mentally tougher.

[SFHoya99]

A couple of thoughts as to why DJ gets the larger amount of PT:

1) Though Ross has statisticaly outperformed him in games, Owens may be outperforming Ross in practice. Ross hasn't been so much better than DJ in games that a change is obvious.

2) DJ's defense is pretty good, and I think he's better suited to play against Big East 3's than Ross. Ross may defend a large three guard set, but Ross guarding Rudy Gay or Charlie Villanueva?

3) DJ's three point shot is very good. Ross has only shot one. Perhaps having a court full of shooters is preferable?

4) DJ's assist per minute rate is right leads the team along with Green, and he seems to touch the ball far less. Subjectively, he seems to be the team's best passer.

DJ gets bashed on this board, and the truth about DJ is just this: when other players are scoring, DJ is a good complementary player. He has a good handle, size, decent defense and is a good passer. He is a threat from 3. When other players are not scoring, DJ can't take over, though some expect him to. I don't think Ross can either.

They seem to be pretty similar players splitting time.

[novahoya]

We definitely played our best when Robert was in the Temple game. It was kind of shocking to see as it was happening, and then when it occurred again in the second half.

I think for whatever reason Robert is more confident on the court. I can't imagine why, considering how little he's played the past few years, but he certainly looks confident and active out there. He also seems more creative than Owens, something I value, as I'd rather see anything than chucking up three's.

So my almost bottom line is that Robert is flat out playing better than Owens through the first few games.

But then the posts above make valid points, there are reasons good reasons not to start Robert.

How about this one - if he gets hurt again, you lose a big contributor, but keep your regular starters from game to game...Total speculation here, but maybe he’s only 90% now, and isn’t a lock to able to play 20+ minutes every game.

My actual bottom line will be, as long as Robert gets solid playing time, I think that's fair. Maybe he's just the type to succeed off the bench, or maybe he'll be starting in a few games. I hate splitting time a million ways, I’m a big fan of #10, but it does seem that each player deserves their minutes.

Will we ever see them together to have a couple tall guards on the court at the same time?

[HoyaSox04]

Very well put, nova hoya, well put. I guess it really doesnt make a difference who really starts, but the point is Ramell (or Robert - yeah triple r's) seems like a better fit for the direction of the team this season than DJ. Hey, as long as we play like we did against PSU, we'll be happy. Just would love to see Ramell succeed this season after losing so much time to injuries - you forget, this kid was Mr. Virginia in basketball his JUNIOR year. Oh, what could have been, Ramrod...

Who likes shenanigans?

[chinatownfanclub]

Not only mr. basketball but he was also homecoming king hoyasox.

I disagree with your assessment based on the fact that the energy Triple R has been bringing off the bench seems much more important than putting him in the starting lineup. As big a fan of #10 as I am in, I still have alot of respect (hope) for DJ's games. If Brandon and Green start developing as our primary scorers, I can really see DJ becoming that third scorer by shooting the open three or taking it to the hoop.

So far we haven't see this from him, but I continue to believe that the flashes he has shown in the past could come to fruition on a consistent basis. Maybe I'm delusional, but I really think he is the key to us being successful this year. As much as we need the frosh to step up, we need DJ's (senior?) leadership and experience.

[HoyaSox04]

Chinatown,

Sadly, I too know that he was homecoming king... thought it could be strange to put that in a post too - glad you did instead.

I see your point about triple R bringing the energy off the bench, but doesnt that plan all have to start with Darrell bringing it to the court in the first place? I mean, if Darrell's gonna keep playing the way he has (and granted, he hasn't been playing BAD, just average), what's the good in bringing triple R off the bench if he's gonna end up playing 15-20 minutes anyways? why not just give him the minutes DJ is getting and then use DJ as a change-of-pace kind of guy?

Now that it seems Brandon and Jeff are poised to become the 1-2 punch we have needed, you think DJ could become that 3rd scoring option - I would argue that role can be filled by J-Dub (who has proven to have a great shot) or Ashanti, if he remembers how to shoot. DJ is just so frustratingly inconsistent, its like watching Notre dame play football this year. I just dont think he always sticks to taking high percentage shots and instead looks to create a shot when another pass would easily do the trick. Although, under the tutelage of JTIII, I can see that changing very quickly.

[novahoya]

I can't wait until after Illinois. I think this is a great question - who to start between these two. RaMell certainly has a lot to prove considering how little he's played, especially against reasonable competition. Maybe one of the two will have a great game and make the answer obvious.

I for one would like to see Owens be more assertive.

Either way, I'll be back to this topic come Friday am for sure.

[hoyanick]

I would agree that Ross should start if only I believed Owens would provide a spark of the bench. With his talent and atheleticism, he definitely could.

Yet, we have all seen that Mr. Owens gets down on himself after missing a shot, throwing away a pass, etc, and proceeds to disappear for the rest of the game. If JTIII puts DJ, who has been starting for as long as I can remember, on the bench, I think that his confidence level will plummet and he will be completely ineffective.

Better to let him start and see if he can shoot himself into any kind of rhythm.

PS: Lets beat IL and get a couple of votes for the Top 25. We have to cheer them on, Come out in force!

[lichoya68]

remember ramell was super in high school hurt since but in brief time hes been in he is a big guard can really go to the hoop plays good d hustles and i think if doesnot get hurt could be a reall competitor and contributor in the jy3 system.. darrell o. is good dfender rebounder but is more the three guy and if he continues to miss we will need ross to play more and maybe start go hoyas beat illinois lets pray and play

[MCIGuy]

DJ is just so frustratingly inconsistent, its like watching Notre dame play football this year. I just dont think he always sticks to taking high percentage shots and instead looks to create a shot when another pass would easily do the trick. Although, under the tutelage of JTIII, I can see that changing very quickly.

Now this part just comes across as bogus to me. If anyone on this team that has taken good shots consistently as well as looked for the extra pass consistently over the last two seasons it has been DJ. And frankly its not even close. In fact if there is a major flaw in DJ's game its his not taking enough chances and not being aggressive enough. Even worse is the fcat that often he passes up on good shots and simply passes the ball to a teammate who is not in any better of a position to shoot. But you will rarely see DJ take a bad shot. Hell, you will rarely see him take a shot at times.

[Fan Of The Game]

I totally agree. DJ doesn't hurt the team when he's out there; the argument is whether he should be doing more to help the team.

He's not Ray Reed.

[HoyaSox04]

I'm all for Kenny Izzo taking the place of Ray Reed in the rotation...

I disagree with the statement that DJ doesnt hurt us out there - he does, in fact, many times. And I dont want to shatter his confidence at all, which I think is very fragile. I just want what I think is best for the team, and it seems as though the team plays much better / with more intensity / with less mistakes when Ramell is on the floor. That's not saying DJ is a bad player by any stretch, I just think Ramell is a superior player. But I do agree that if we are going to succeed this year as a team, we need contributions from BOTH players, whatever roles JTIII plays them in.

[MCIGuy]

HoyaSox430 said:

I'm all for Kenny Izzo taking the place of Ray Reed in the rotation...

I disagree with the statement that DJ doesnt hurt us out there - he does, in fact, many times. And I dont want to shatter his confidence at all, which I think is very fragile. I just want what I think is best for the team, and it seems as though the team plays much better / with more intensity / with less mistakes when Ramell is on the floor. That's not saying DJ is a bad player by any stretch, I just think Ramell is a superior player. But I do agree that if we are going to succeed this year as a team, we need contributions from BOTH players, whatever roles JTIII plays them in.

Well as I pointed out I think there is very little evidence out there to support your theory that RaMell is a superior player in any way. Admittedly part of that may be because RaMell has barely suited up for five games in his career which, while not his fault, has kept most of us from seeing how truly skilled he is (and I do believe he is skilled). I think in terms of athleticism, shooting, handle, defense and explosiveness Owens is better. And I'm going to need more than four games at the beginning of the season before I can concede that Ross is better on any of these fronts. But admittedly my view on those things are simply my opinions which are no more legit than yours. What is not an opinion is my point that DJ does not take bad shots as you asserted. Your writing that makes me wonder if we are even referring to the same guy. He hurts the team because of his passiveness, but the quality of the few shots he does take are good ones that occur within the offensive scheme. Even those who don't care for his game typically admit to that.