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Post by chinatownfanclub on Dec 9, 2004 14:13:39 GMT -5
don't mind my semi-delusional friend hoyasox... he's just so excited to see Triple R finally playing b-ball at MCI rather than Yates that he is making semi-indefensible arguments
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ShimmyJr
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Post by ShimmyJr on Dec 9, 2004 14:20:32 GMT -5
Why are people being so snippy about this? I mean having a difficult decision between two talented and versatile players is a blessing. Regardless of who is the current starter, both will have the opportunity to make a statement as to who should be getting the most minutes - if DO continues to disappear when it counts, then I wouldn't be surprised if RaMell sees more of the crunchtime minutes...
And while MCI can be a Edited sometimes with his tone, you weaken your argument HoyaSox by getting away from backing up your contention with facts and general observations, and instead resorting to sarcastic comments.
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Post by chinatownfanclub on Dec 9, 2004 14:28:49 GMT -5
i have the solution if this can't be decided on the court... we see who performs better in the ESPN college b-ball game. This afternoon i will simulate a season for Gtown and let the board know the results. We all know that real life follows closely to performace in video games so this will be very scientific and authoritative.
No more snipping.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 9, 2004 14:30:13 GMT -5
And while MCI can be a Edited sometimes with his tone, I prefer the word "jackass" but its all good. Seriously, I think if RaMell is having as positive of an impact as SOX is claiming then its only going to benefit the team. Lets just not jump to conclusions after a handful of games. And lets not characterize DJ as a guy who takes bad shots when according to 99.99% of Hoya fans (yes, I did the math in between editing my Darrell Owens highlight tape) who comment on both boards do not consider that to be an issue with Owens.
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MEGAFAN
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Post by MEGAFAN on Dec 9, 2004 15:43:59 GMT -5
I don't want to add more oil to the fire, but I think the most abused player on this board is none other than Ashanti Cook.
While I agree with many that Owens should remain in the starting lineup (albeit I have seen the energy Ross brings and like what I see), and that his problem is not shot selection, but being agressive and shooting more, I don't know why Cook is so often picked upon. Those Causey advocates out there wanted Cook out of the starting lineup, or moved over to the two. Others criticize his shot selection and defense.
Granted, he is not the most groomed of players out there, but his ability to handle, penetrate and pass the ball is far superior to any other player we have had since Kenny Brunner (there you go 007, another mention of my Samurai boy Kill "Kenny")
So many people have an apparent bias against Cook. I know that if you look at his career shooting numbers, they're not impressive, but if you actually watch games, although Cook is no saint, I think he has the best handle on the team, and is among the best pentrators. Also, unlike other Hoya shooters who have lost their touch upon coming to Georgetown, Cook's shot generally has good form, he hits it in practice, and his problem is one more of execution than technique. This is not to make excuses for his lack of shooting, but although I was a huge AP fan, he clearly had a glitch in his shot that only got worse as he got older. This is not the case with Cook.
Furthermore, he is capable of playing the 1 or the 2, and while defense is not his strong suit, he is more more often burned by taller opposing guards, but does alright with the shorter/quicker ones. I expect that much of this season's success falls on Cook's shoulders, and I would like to see a little more patience and less quick triggers when it comes to my boy Ashanti. I mean, his first season he was injurred and didn't play much, but showed some promise. Last year, he didn't have the year I/we expected, but then again, look at how the team as a whole performed, and consider that this was Cook's first year running the point at the top level.
Now that he has moved to the two, many will say, you see, he was never a pure point guard, which may be partly true, but this is a Princeton offense, and ball handling, penetration and shooting are more evenly distributed. Look for Ashanti to be somewhat streaky, but to have big games (and big halves, like his 17 pt one the other nigt), and to continue to develop. Remember, Cook, alongside Bowman, will be one of our senior leaders next year, and it is only in the best interest of the team to continue to be patient and hope he develops the way I am confident he will.
GO HOYAS!!! SHOCK THE WORLD: UPSET #1 ILLINOIS!
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HoyaNJ5
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Post by HoyaNJ5 on Dec 9, 2004 16:19:38 GMT -5
I don't want to add more oil to the fire, but I think the most abused player on this board is none other than Ashanti Cook. While I agree with many that Owens should remain in the starting lineup (albeit I have seen the energy Ross brings and like what I see), and that his problem is not shot selection, but being agressive and shooting more, I don't know why Cook is so often picked upon. Those Causey advocates out there wanted Cook out of the starting lineup, or moved over to the two. Others criticize his shot selection and defense. Granted, he is not the most groomed of players out there, but his ability to handle, penetrate and pass the ball is far superior to any other player we have had since Kenny Brunner (there you go 007, another mention of my Samurai boy Kill "Kenny") So many people have an apparent bias against Cook. I know that if you look at his career shooting numbers, they're not impressive, but if you actually watch games, although Cook is no saint, I think he has the best handle on the team, and is among the best pentrators. Also, unlike other Hoya shooters who have lost their touch upon coming to Georgetown, Cook's shot generally has good form, he hits it in practice, and his problem is one more of execution than technique. This is not to make excuses for his lack of shooting, but although I was a huge AP fan, he clearly had a glitch in his shot that only got worse as he got older. This is not the case with Cook. Furthermore, he is capable of playing the 1 or the 2, and while defense is not his strong suit, he is more more often burned by taller opposing guards, but does alright with the shorter/quicker ones. I expect that much of this season's success falls on Cook's shoulders, and I would like to see a little more patience and less quick triggers when it comes to my boy Ashanti. I mean, his first season he was injurred and didn't play much, but showed some promise. Last year, he didn't have the year I/we expected, but then again, look at how the team as a whole performed, and consider that this was Cook's first year running the point at the top level. Now that he has moved to the two, many will say, you see, he was never a pure point guard, which may be partly true, but this is a Princeton offense, and ball handling, penetration and shooting are more evenly distributed. Look for Ashanti to be somewhat streaky, but to have big games (and big halves, like his 17 pt one the other nigt), and to continue to develop. Remember, Cook, alongside Bowman, will be one of our senior leaders next year, and it is only in the best interest of the team to continue to be patient and hope he develops the way I am confident he will. GO HOYAS!!! SHOCK THE WORLD: UPSET #1 ILLINOIS! MEGAFAN, I completely agree with your post on Cook. Although people are critical of him, he has by far the best handle on the team. When he has the ball, I don't get nervous that he will get his pocket picked. That's why I think its important for both Ashanti and DJ to be in games. They are our two best ballhandlers, and they break the press better than anyone else (granted, I haven't seen Jeff Green, Wallace or any of our freshmen in that situation). I think we should stick with both Ashanti and DJ in the lineup.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 9, 2004 16:23:19 GMT -5
I like Cook a lot, and defended him earlier in this thread.
But Kevin Braswell was a better penetrator. KB may be the least appreciated Hoya in the Thompson era, and he was playing just a few years ago.
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MEGAFAN
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Post by MEGAFAN on Dec 9, 2004 17:24:49 GMT -5
At this point in Cook's career, I would have to say that tentatively agree with you on two fronts. First, KB is perhaps a better pure penetrator - at least he did it more consistently for longer. Second, KB is definitely underappreciated, and helped keep this program going for four years. While he may not have ever turned into the pure point and/or leader that we had hoped he would, I think people confuse their dislike for Esherick's apparent blind loyalty to KB with a dislike for KB himself, or for the high quality of his skills.
Analgous to this was the play of Victor Page, especially during his sophomore campaign, in which everyone looks back on this year as though it should have an asterisk, as though Victor Page did not almost single-handedly lead the Hoyas to a NCAA appearance in perhaps the most miraculous of ways in the history of the sport. I don't want to get too off point here, so back to KB and Cook.
I will say this about him. At this point in time, I believe his handle is better than KB at the end of four years. Also, although his pure penetration skills are debatable, as mentioned above, his natural ability to pass the ball, find the open man, and use court vision, IMO, are better today than KB at the end of four years. I also think that he is quicker than KB, and plays defense without taking as many gambles, although KB definitely was a very productive "stealer" throughout his tenure. Next, KB had many assists, most among Hoyas ever I believe, but he also had the luxury of playing with a man-child called Mike Sweetney, so while he should not be penalized for this, it definitely helped his assist stats.
We may never know if Cook could have matched KB's success at the pg position, as he was slightly injured his freshman year (playing behind Bethel), he had one year at poing (on a very poor team), and now he is playing more of a two/combo guard, in a system whereby a pure pg doesn't accumulate assists at the same rate (see Jeff Green as leading assist man).
All in all, I do not want to sound like a huge Cook appologist, but quite frankly, I am very excited that he is part of our starting lineup, and do think that despite his off appearances, he will continue to improve and hep this team prosper. In fact, I expect that he has a chance to make an All-Big East team by the end of his tenure here.
GO HOYAS!!! SHOCK THE WORLD: UPSET #1 ILLINOIS!
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Post by chinatownfanclub on Dec 9, 2004 17:25:13 GMT -5
except braswell didn't penetrate and shot 3's especially at the end of games... anybody remember four chances to win the ND 4 ot game. I don't remember any penetration there.
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hoyanick
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Post by hoyanick on Dec 9, 2004 21:14:36 GMT -5
CASE CLOSED
I think the game against IL showed that Ramell should be starting. He played more minutes anyways (24 to 20)
Stat lines read as follows:
Owens had 0 points on 0-4 shooting, 1 rb, 1 assist, and 1 foul. Didn't exactly do the small things either.
Ross had 9 points on 4-8 shooting, 1 ast, 1 TO and 1 foul. He drove hard to the hole many times, which was refreshing. No rebounds is a disappointment though.
Perhaps neither should start. Wallace, Ashanti, Brandon (who underwhelmed us as well tonight), Jeff and Roy. That would be an interesting lineup to try against SJSU.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 9, 2004 21:28:27 GMT -5
Agreed that RaMell was very impressive tonight while DJ pulled another MIA. This can't continue. IF DJ doesn't want to make a bigger impact on the court and lead as an upperclassmen should then he needs to take a seat and stay there. Disappointed in DJ so far (and disappointed for him) but I'm honestly happy for RaMell.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 9, 2004 21:30:01 GMT -5
DJ seemed to be completely content with uselessness. If we just need to a guy to dribble around the perimeter we could play Beal.
Ross was way more active and made some nice drives. I don't see what could be lost by benching Owens right now. Maybe it would wake him up.
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HoyaNJ5
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Post by HoyaNJ5 on Dec 9, 2004 21:33:50 GMT -5
I'll agree with the Ross supporters tonight. After the Illinois game, which I just got back from, Ross was definitely more assertive. Even though he has a really ugly set shot, he was the only one who was able to penetrate and get to the tin. Maybe starting Ross will wake DJ up a little bit. At the same time, I'm thinking that Ross's role might be better suited coming off the bench ala Vinnie "the Microwave" Johnson.
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MEGAFAN
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Post by MEGAFAN on Dec 9, 2004 21:38:07 GMT -5
While I think that we must be patient with players (and that a removal of Owens from the starting lineup could either further undermine his confidence and/or give him a jump-start), I must agree that to date Ross has outplayed Owens significantly. With that said, Ross has exceeded all expectations (even of those who knew his potential from watching him in high school), and while he doesn't appear to have a strong shooting touch, I commented in another thread that he surprisingly reads the defense and knows when to attack better than perhaps any other player on this team. So far he has had an uncanny ability to drive to the hole with success against all levels of competition. On the one hand, this excites me tremendously, and I'm extremely happy for Rameel, but on the other hand, I can't help but think of what could have been without all those injuries. Speaking of which, he tried to draw a charge, which would have worked had he not turned his shoulder. Normally, I would hope that a player be more willing to sacrifice his body (despite an obviously normal gut reaction), but in Ross' case, I can clearly understand why he doesn't want to risk getting hurt yet again. He has been through surgery and injury and surgery and injury, and now it's his time to shine. Let's hope the Hoyas continue to improve and give him a shot at the post season, even if it's just an NIT run.
GO HOYAS!!!
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 9, 2004 23:45:47 GMT -5
remember rammell was one of the best dc area playerts his junior year in high school has been basically hurt since and maybe now is his time he can get to the hoop with the best of them plays good d can screen.. long arms and good body for steals and hustles as he goes and hibbert improves so my go our hoyas with brandon being consistent,, jeff growing and wallce continuing to improve go hoyas
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 10, 2004 9:02:07 GMT -5
Remember last year when our coach refused to alter his starting lineup despite losing continually? Now's the time to change our starting lineup!
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Dec 10, 2004 9:34:11 GMT -5
While we may debate Ross v. DJ and the merits of Cook, can we all agree that Reed should never see the court again?
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Dec 10, 2004 11:15:07 GMT -5
A lineup change for last years squad? The best players on the team started for last year's squad, and they still couldn't win. KB was one the best guards G'town has ever had. He was our offense in the clutch and our ballhandler. Cook is a good player, with some good moves. He is a two-guard who can play the point, better than bethel, who thought he was the next Allen Iverson.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Dec 10, 2004 14:49:52 GMT -5
Ramell is doing the job. He's persevered and attacked the hoop against a good defensive team. DJ will have his opportunities, but he looked like he packed it in on offense when he couldn't turn the corner on williams (or brown) in the lst half. All he did was pass it around at the top. Even Roy took it to the hole.
Ramell deserves the opportunity to start. He got the minutes in this game and showed the early season was no fluke. He was active and had an impact on the game. Reward him.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 10, 2004 15:02:30 GMT -5
remember dj was one of leading three percentage nationally last year in the pre big east and then disappeared so those stats lie and really are skewed id love for him to hit em but he misses alot of open ones.. great d good pics.. alot of hustle but if he dont start hitting outside we will need ramell ross as the big east comes to step up more and he did got nine and actually missed one or two bunnies
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