bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Nov 29, 2006 23:48:31 GMT -5
The offense doesn't call for a three point shooting contest. Tonight it created mismatches all night, but only Wallace and Egerson took advantage of them. Jeff has to take his man when he is isolated. He also needs to be better at moving without the ball and posting up. Some of the guards turnovers were trying to force the ball to Jeff when he was not sealing his position. Roy has to score or get fouled when he gets the ball 1-on-1 on the low block. Some of the threes should not have been taken. There really was no reason for anyone other than Wallace to take one except at the end of the shot clock. This was not a sagging zone that begged for a few threes. Spread the floor and isolate 1-on-1. Wallace and Egerson actually had Georgetown up at half with zero points from Hibbert and Green. JTIII does not micromanage and rarely calls set plays. He wants them the "figure it out." They have to learn to see the game, react to the defense, and make decisions. In the end that works much better than scripted plays.
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Oh My!
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Oh My! on Nov 29, 2006 23:54:16 GMT -5
JW--“Coach is putting us in good situations where we can have positive outcomes but we as players have to take it upon ourselves to be more attentive to the type of game plan and be able to execute on the floor.”
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 1:19:31 GMT -5
A coach's job is to ADJUST TO HIS TALENT--not vice versa. The thing with this "system" crap is you can have great x's and o's but if your personnel can't excel using it--you need to change your approach--with this current team, they need to get out and get more shots up and use their size-not have their size out top and running high/backcuts when nobody outside of Wallace is established as a legit outside threat.
Wright and Freeman will be coming in and can stroke it--and this is why things will be easier to run the offense/system when you have shooters and guys who can make plays.
Right now, the Hoyas have a team who isn't reflective of what their coach likes to do and he always preaches about a system that gives players "freedom" to make decisions--well how does that happen if they never play aggressively and attack--always trying to think on court and minute you think in a sport and it's not a natural reaction/instinct, you are in trouble.
Every year/team is different and this year's team can't win/achieve goals if they continue to play as previous Hoyas have under III. Not enough outside firepower and instinctive scorers. Best players want to pass/share ball which is great, but championship teams/players know when to take over and when to share the wealth and we lack any kids of that mindset right now.
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Post by FHillsNYHoya on Nov 30, 2006 2:14:53 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Sapp, JWall, Rivers, Egg, Summers and TC - however, if Jeff and Roy don't have BIG seasons, we will likely struggle. I think we all probably knew that, and no one can say those two have been "on" for a game yet. Let's hope it happens on Saturday night.
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HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Nov 30, 2006 6:52:13 GMT -5
i'm not buying the 'tyler will save us' nonsense. we're putting our hopes on a guy that barely played his first 2 seasons and shot 3-12 his only game this year? sure, he'll help the miserable defense and rebounding but unless he can get green and hibbert to stop playing like 8th graders i don't see him helping that much.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Nov 30, 2006 9:18:14 GMT -5
I think making our miserable defense and rebounding a little less miserable would be a good first step toward progress with this team. Also, having someone else out there who will lead and can shoot can only help us. We are running 3 guards out there right now. That is not enough, on any level.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 10:57:37 GMT -5
A coach's job is to ADJUST TO HIS TALENT--not vice versa. The thing with this "system" crap is you can have great x's and o's but if your personnel can't excel using it--you need to change your approach--with this current team, they need to get out and get more shots up and use their size-not have their size out top and running high/backcuts when nobody outside of Wallace is established as a legit outside threat. Wright and Freeman will be coming in and can stroke it--and this is why things will be easier to run the offense/system when you have shooters and guys who can make plays. Right now, the Hoyas have a team who isn't reflective of what their coach likes to do and he always preaches about a system that gives players "freedom" to make decisions--well how does that happen if they never play aggressively and attack--always trying to think on court and minute you think in a sport and it's not a natural reaction/instinct, you are in trouble. Every year/team is different and this year's team can't win/achieve goals if they continue to play as previous Hoyas have under III. Not enough outside firepower and instinctive scorers. Best players want to pass/share ball which is great, but championship teams/players know when to take over and when to share the wealth and we lack any kids of that mindset right now. Again, RDF, you act like there is a system. When Coach talks about his offense, how does he describe it? 1. Read the defense 2. Good spacing 3. Move without the ball 4. Take good shots We don't run a lot of plays. He expects the players to recognize the mismatches, the best shots, etc. In an ideal scenario, the "system" doesn't need adapting, it adapts itself. Regardless, the "system" had nothing to do with last night. We went to our strength, and our strength failed us. Bitching about the system is a broken record. Wallace penetrated all night. He delivered. Jeff and Roy didn't. Simple. The system isn't holding Roy or Jeff back. Roy and Jeff are.
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Oh My!
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 938
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Post by Oh My! on Nov 30, 2006 11:16:11 GMT -5
A coach's job is to ADJUST TO HIS TALENT--not vice versa. The thing with this "system" crap is you can have great x's and o's but if your personnel can't excel using it--you need to change your approach--with this current team, they need to get out and get more shots up and use their size-not have their size out top and running high/backcuts when nobody outside of Wallace is established as a legit outside threat. Wright and Freeman will be coming in and can stroke it--and this is why things will be easier to run the offense/system when you have shooters and guys who can make plays. Right now, the Hoyas have a team who isn't reflective of what their coach likes to do and he always preaches about a system that gives players "freedom" to make decisions--well how does that happen if they never play aggressively and attack--always trying to think on court and minute you think in a sport and it's not a natural reaction/instinct, you are in trouble. Every year/team is different and this year's team can't win/achieve goals if they continue to play as previous Hoyas have under III. Not enough outside firepower and instinctive scorers. Best players want to pass/share ball which is great, but championship teams/players know when to take over and when to share the wealth and we lack any kids of that mindset right now. OK, so I did some research---(Washington Post All-Met Page from last year and guhoyas bios for current players). Not all bios go into the past beyond a senior year, so the following information will compare the "LAST HIGH SCHOOL SEASON PLAYED" for each person listed. As you will come to see, averaging a lot of points in HS & being able to "stroke it" does not guarantee collegiate success. Ready for these #'s? Jessie------Sr. @ NCA-------24.3 ppg Marc--------Sr. @ Glasgow-------25 ppg Tyler-------Sr. @ Lee----------25 ppg Tay---------Sr. @ Banneker---------26.7 ppg DaJuan------Sr. @ McDonogh--------29.2 ppg VS. Chris Wright----Jr. @ SJC-----22.1 ppg Austin--------Jr. @ DeMatha------17.9 Some of you may say Junior year #'s versus Senior year #'s. Some may say level of talent in opponent (garbage, as Jessie & DaJuan's teams BOTH played very tough HS schedules). I make the point that we have guys on the team now who could "stroke it" in HS. You CANNOT be sure Austin & Chris are solutions to our offensive problems.
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 30, 2006 11:22:49 GMT -5
You tried to kill this argument before it was born, but comparing high school numbers like that is total folly. There were major differences among the group not only in competition level within leagues, but also on each team - DaJuan was the man for his team, whereas Austin was playing with 5+ D-1 prospects.
There is no guarantee that they will be stars, and I doubt anyone would argue that. But I've seen Wright and Freeman play, and I'd be shocked if they don't contribute. Wright might take some time - he's probably going to struggle to play a more disciplined style. But unlike a lot of our other perimeter players, I think Austin is perfectly suited to this offense and could easily average double digits while shooting a good percentage from day 1.
However, I think that bringing this up every time we struggle is pointless. They aren't enrolling this year, and right now we need to work with what we have.
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hchoya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 195
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Post by hchoya on Nov 30, 2006 11:27:43 GMT -5
I dont know why are we are trying to answer our shooting problems with people that are going to be on the team next year. We need to think, how do we fix the problem at hand right now? And that is by not taking outside shots and by forcing it inside and to have Green and Roy stop being just little girls and man up. After watching the UNC-OSU game last night, I kept watching Hansboro (sp?) and thinking wow this guy has it all. He is a gressive, smart on offense and defense and he gets to the rim and scores. I then thought about Roy and Jeff and thought, why can't they do this? Why can't they just take the rock and go to the whole? Why can't Roy jam the ball in close? Why?..... Hopefully things will turn around, and they need to or this is going to be a long season and one of the most painful.
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Nov 30, 2006 11:28:23 GMT -5
You tried to kill this argument before it was born, but comparing high school numbers like that is total folly. There were major differences among the group not only in competition level within leagues, but also on each team - DaJuan was the man for his team, whereas Austin was playing with 5+ D-1 prospects. There is no guarantee that they will be stars, and I doubt anyone would argue that. But I've seen Wright and Freeman play, and I'd be shocked if they don't contribute. Wright might take some time - he's probably going to struggle to play a more disciplined style. But unlike a lot of our other perimeter players, I think Austin is perfectly suited to this offense and could easily average double digits while shooting a good percentage from day 1. However, I think that bringing this up every time we struggle is pointless. They aren't enrolling this year, and right now we need to work with what we have. If we could categorize posts by author, you might find that I have said some of these same things (Austin fits; Chris takes time; work with what we have). I also knew someone would use the HS talent argument against my stats (as I stated--I disagree, as these guys were still HS players. Besides, Jessie also had 3 fellow AA's on his team. Austin was CLEARLY also "the man" at DeMatha. DaJuan once fouled out with 2 T's in a game last year when I was at St. Alban's; he, too, did not always carry his team). Just something to think about.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 11:39:58 GMT -5
Hoyaboy,
This is why I have an issue with the "guardplay" contingent. The folks who seem to think guardplay is everything are saying that there is a fundamental, structural problem with the Hoya team.
While I agree the team is imperfect, their arguments imply that Georgetown cannot win with this team because we cannot get better guards this year and these guards are supposedly insufficient to win at all.
I disagree with that. A team won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB, won the World Series with Jeff Weaver as a #2 starter, won an NCAA title with a Duany at SG, won an NBA Title with Derek Fisher at PG.
Every team has fundamental, systematic weaknesses. This team CAN WIN despite those.
So when we lose to an inferior (talent-wise) team, I'm not going to blame the structural weaknesses. We should win these games despite those. I'm going to blame our strengths not performing when they don't perform.
If everyone plays to their ability, and we don't have enough ability to beat Florida or Kansas or UNC, fine, blame the structural weakness of not having fantastic perimeter players. But when we lose in a lackluster effort to a team we should be, it isn't the structural weakness that beat us.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 30, 2006 11:47:06 GMT -5
Hoyaboy, This is why I have an issue with the "guardplay" contingent. The folks who seem to think guardplay is everything are saying that there is a fundamental, structural problem with the Hoya team. While I agree the team is imperfect, their arguments imply that Georgetown cannot win with this team because we cannot get better guards this year and these guards are supposedly insufficient to win at all. I disagree with that. A team won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB, won the World Series with Jeff Weaver as a #2 starter, won an NCAA title with a Duany at SG, won an NBA Title with Derek Fisher at PG. Every team has fundamental, systematic weaknesses. This team CAN WIN despite those. So when we lose to an inferior (talent-wise) team, I'm not going to blame the structural weaknesses. We should win these games despite those. I'm going to blame our strengths not performing when they don't perform. If everyone plays to their ability, and we don't have enough ability to beat Florida or Kansas or UNC, fine, blame the structural weakness of not having fantastic perimeter players. But when we lose in a lackluster effort to a team we should be, it isn't the structural weakness that beat us. Jessie Sapp was one of the best open court guards in his class. Note: Jessie Sapp leads the team in steals, has close to 4/1 assts/to ratio, and shoots 50% from two-point range. But half his shots are now threes. He's forced to play like Wallace who excels in the half court. There is no reason why Wallace can't be the key guard in the halfcourt and we can't run fullcourt with Sapp leading the way. We actually have good balance at guard but we're not balancing our game to go with them.
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Post by chinatownfanclub on Nov 30, 2006 12:06:36 GMT -5
I think we should fire JTIII and re-hire Esh and Ronny to run the show... discuss
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Hoya06
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by Hoya06 on Nov 30, 2006 12:10:51 GMT -5
Great point Hchoya. I find myself thinking about this a lot when watching other "elite" teams. The UNC's & Florida's of college bball have the ability to really impress, and eventhough we have occiasional outbursts, we do not dominate We just dont seem to have the same spark/flair/intensity... whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of talk about PE2 giving us the spark but that does not seem to be happening, hopefully Tyler can? I think this has to do with us "playing to our oponent" and the fact that the gtown circle is so close nit and we know so much about our players. I love the relationship the players have with the student body, but I think seeing Jeff post on Ashanti's facebook wall something to the effect "missing him" takes away from Jeff's aura (or is it that there shouldn't be no aura to begin with?). Does this happen at other schools? That being said, I hope to see more of those "moments" strung together and but JTIII & co to put the pieces together. BEAT DUKE!
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by YB on Nov 30, 2006 12:11:55 GMT -5
A coach's job is to ADJUST TO HIS TALENT--not vice versa. This describes an AAU coach or a KL coach. College coaches always make the players do what they need them to do. It's called teaching, and explains why Bob Knight still has a job after all his shenanigans.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 12:17:53 GMT -5
Some of you guys don't get it--we'll see how this team does and when Wright/Freeman come next year and you can tell me which team is better--I've said it, will say it, and know it--next year's team will be far superior to this year's and III knows it. Why do you think the man has told everyone that would listen "Have you seen our guards?" and why did he say that? It was in response to the lofty status in preseason and hype we were getting. What position did he aggressively recruit? Freeman, Wright, Wattad, and Clark is one of our '08 commits. I'm sorry but that speaks more volumes then any HS stats.
Scoring is different than shooting--and Wright, Freeman, Wattad can SHOOT. Freeman plays on a team that is sending numerous guys to D1 and is a CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM. Chris Wright led a team of numerous stars to 3 Championships--against his peer group--which will also be playing at the D1 level, and he's a guy who can SHOOT THE BALL--that is skill that Sapp--who is a scorer and guy I'm very fond of as a player--isn't nearly as good at. Rivers is a Bobby Winston style of guard--and that is important, but it's not a help to this team-he's a shaky shooter.
Summers played in post on his HS team. Spann is someone who I think could help--but obviously he's not earned time because III doesn't play him. Crawford is sick/recovering--maybe he'll help but until he does, I can't count on him.
Some of you guys act like this team is loaded--and it has more talent then past, but basketball is easiest sport to spot talent and find what is needed/missing--it's a SKILL sport and we lack a major skill that is required on this team that is championship caliber--perimeter shooting. I think you might see a Wright, Freeman, Sapp backcourt or Wallace, Wright, Freeman backcourt with two bigs at a lot of times simply to free up bigs down low and give team spacing. The threat of someone's ability to shoot is as important as being able to shoot--if the other team doesn't care if you shoot, then you struggle to score-ala Joey Brown era, and Pops teams--which this team resembles more in personnel.
The mention of Derek Fisher playing for Lakers in NBA is just so silly I'll reply with this--that is the NBA--BEST PLAYERS IN WORLD and did you know FISHER LED COUNTRY IN SCORING HIS SENIOR YEAR and was a great outside shooter for Lakers? He opened court up and hit numerous shots when open--which is the threat you need--it's not about talent of players overall, it's about roles/skill they bring and Wright/Freeman can shoot the ball--if you don't know this by now, you will.
I'm not saying they can help this year, I'm saying this team needs to tweak it's approach to fit what the current roster CAN DO--which is play a different style of game then what we've seen in III's tenure and will see in future when we have shooters.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Nov 30, 2006 12:21:45 GMT -5
Hoyaboy, This is why I have an issue with the "guardplay" contingent. The folks who seem to think guardplay is everything are saying that there is a fundamental, structural problem with the Hoya team. While I agree the team is imperfect, their arguments imply that Georgetown cannot win with this team because we cannot get better guards this year and these guards are supposedly insufficient to win at all. I disagree with that. A team won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB, won the World Series with Jeff Weaver as a #2 starter, won an NCAA title with a Duany at SG, won an NBA Title with Derek Fisher at PG. Every team has fundamental, systematic weaknesses. This team CAN WIN despite those. So when we lose to an inferior (talent-wise) team, I'm not going to blame the structural weaknesses. We should win these games despite those. I'm going to blame our strengths not performing when they don't perform. If everyone plays to their ability, and we don't have enough ability to beat Florida or Kansas or UNC, fine, blame the structural weakness of not having fantastic perimeter players. But when we lose in a lackluster effort to a team we should be, it isn't the structural weakness that beat us. lol this is funny. Trent Dilfer played on a team with arguably the best defensive unit ever. Derek Fisher won on a team with the arguably the most dominant player ever and one of the best players ever from his era and a coach with 9 championship rings. Duany played with one of the best freshman ever to play in NCAA basketball. And a good supporting cast, and a hall of fame coach who played in the game 2 other times. Where is the support unit for G-town. We can't shoot. That isn't going to change. The teams that beat us are better. If they aren't then we don't lose to them. Its that simple. Stop looking at Florida, UNC, Ohio State and keep thinking G-town is on their level. They aren't. Its not even close. G-town is flawed right now and has a lot of work to do. We can become a good basketball team. Its just right now we aren't a good basketball team right now. We are mediocre.
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Post by africanscout on Nov 30, 2006 12:30:33 GMT -5
The "we're young" or "just wait 'til next year" excuses just don't cut it in the 'win now' nature of top college ball. The Hoyas have now overtaken Maryland as the #1 destination for top recruits in the Metro-Atlantic region. GU's effectively turned down players mid-majors (like GMU) couldn't dream of getting. It's always a challenge with newer players to get them to know all the plays, but the best coaches stress the fundamentals and then gradually add more complexity. Hoya coaches and fans will have no business whining comes March if they get a lower seed. Losing too many HOME games you should win, while hopefully steeling a team and helping them to create an identity, has consequences.
Players need to be in a position to take good shots, whether it's threes, jumpers, posting or in the lane. A team with this talent should never be reliant on one or two guys, shouldn't be outrebounded, and should play to its strengths.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 30, 2006 12:49:02 GMT -5
First thing. I went to high school in Delaware. Delaware usually is lucky if one or two players get Division I basketball scholarships. There are massive differences in talent. Holding Egerson's numbers up to those of teams that play in the WCAC is incomprehensible.
Two problems seem to exist with this team. One is a factor of time. One isn't.
The time one is understanding the offense - understanding how to play with your teammates. It's reasonable to assume that sticking freshmen into this system will take some degree of time. This seemed more a factor in the first half - freshmen trying passes and cuts that didn't work. Dumb freshman mistakes also figure into this category. This is part of the learning process, and it's enjoyable to watch someone who made mistakes early in the season progress to become much more polished come March.
The other factor is that the experienced players, especially Hibbert and Green, aren't as involved as they should be. Green took four shots. Hibbert was very tentative. This part, where people who are acknowledged as the stars of the team don't try to play like it (Jonathan Wallace in the Old Dominion game taking ill-advised shots and committing bad turnovers), is exceptionally frustrating. I find it more difficult to believe that learning the system makes everyone regress as bad as it has been - while you may make mistakes in a new job, your coworker with twenty years of experience doesn't simply regress significantly, too. This part is painful and frustrating, because there really isn't an obvious answer.
I trust the progress that has been made under III, but the second concern still befuddles me.
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