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Post by sportsastroguy on Aug 13, 2024 21:15:57 GMT -5
I have no idea what exactly Cooley means by "legit Big East talent", but I can say that we generally ran out at least three starters who were not Big East starting quality. I don't think you see Cook, Massoud or Heath (or Bristol or Brumbaugh) starting on a non-Georgetown, non-Depaul team. I'm not going to quibble on the backups except to say, at minimum, we were too thin, and if you are rolling to a walk on by your 9th player, it's a problem even if all your backups were capable. I think that's just reality, slap in the face or not. And since it's a private call... eh. As for next year, I am personally going to be cautious about anything that is said to a fan support group -- I don't think anyone is going to be negative on what is fundamentally an NIL fundraising call. But there are several things that are undeniable. One, we simply have a lot more players on the roster. Two, there's a lot more raw talent on the roster. I'm not the biggest fan of recruiting rankings, but they tell the truth here. We were very thin on actual talent last year. I don't think there really should be any argument that the upsides of guys like Julius and Sorber far outstrip Supreme Cook's. Three, while you can't guarantee improvement, we can likely expect Epps, Mack, Fielder to be improvements on the minutes from last year, and it's unlikely Peavy is materially worse than Styles (and might be better). The upgrade from Heath to Mack (or Heath and Brumbaugh to Mack) seems substantial with the only real question being three point shooting. I actually think that the wings will have trouble improving too much on Bristol simply because freshmen generally don't defend well and he did. They could be better offensively, but I don't know if it is going to be huge. I think Mulready has a lot more talent than Brumbaugh, but he also could take some adjustment and Brumbaugh did shoot well. That leaves the big question mark of, can the massive number of young players yield enough production -- enough players being ready -- to improve upon the C and PF slots (beyond Fielder's improvement, which could be pretty big) as well as some of the reserve minutes. Some of them will not be ready. But I just can't see Sorber, Julius, new Fielder, Seal, Burks and small ball time for McKenna or Caleb NOT being an vast improvement on Cook, Massoud, old Fielder, ad Mutombo. Yes, they will be super young. But Massoud was such a poor player last year, that group is starting so far ahead. Trying to be cautious in viewing the promise of the upcoming season. Been there done that too many times recently. That said I completely agree that at this point there seems to be a clear talent upgrade. The issue for me is perimeter shooting and how quickly the younger players can reach the point of being able to compete against the talent in the BE. Last year I kept waiting for the "February jump" in performance that never came. This will be a real test for Cooley as it is going to be hard to develop that many 1st year players, particularly when all of them are likely expecting to play. im selling out on this team getting 6 or (most likely) greater wins in the league this year.
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sbgorms
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Post by sbgorms on Aug 14, 2024 6:53:01 GMT -5
I agree with the 6+ wins, but also don’t think that is much of a leap, and honestly would reflect at least a somewhat disappointing amount of progress…I know coming off 3 years of embarrassment in the Big East is traumatizing, but 6-14 makes for a decent batting average, not win percentage. We’ve all blocked out and moved on from last year, but even that flawed team was plenty close to 4 wins (Xavier twice, Seton Hall, St. John’s…not that we would have won all of them, and that wouldn’t have done much of anything to change the season’s narrative other than not being so closely associated with DePaul in the basement.
Many of the takes others have made on this roster are more insightful than mine so no need to rehash, and do think the youth will lend to getting run off the court once or twice next year when things go sideways and it quickly snowballs (cold February night in Storrs, anyone?). That said, if what we’ve heard is correct, then this group of players is hyper-competitive, with a big step up in length, athleticism, and depth, with all three of those factors likely contributing to better D. Obviously lacking in experience, although based on some potential starting lineups that have been kicked around, could very well be starting a senior, junior, two sophomores and a freshman — granted the entire bench would be super green, but you do have a group with experience to have on the court in late, tight situations.
Three point shooting is a question mark, but then again if we were talking about a great 3-point shooting team, we’d probably be talking about a really good team — as it is, I think this could be a dangerous team. Who knows how they gel, and maybe by the time Christmas rolls around we’ll realize this season is a surprise gift sitting under the tree, but getting to 8-12 isn’t a huge stretch…even without sniffing a win against UConn or Marquette, sweeping DePaul (who is improved, but that really isn’t saying much) means 6-8 against the meaty middle of the Big East gets you to 8-12. Obviously no guarantees, but a huge part of winning is putting yourself in position to win, and a deeper and more well rounded team with a massively improved frontcourt and D will be around the hoop a lot more, pardon the pun. Young teams usually need to learn how to win, but I’ll honestly be happy if we’re regularly giving ourselves a chance and just not letting things fade away as happened so many times last year…hopefully that means more than 6 wins.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 14, 2024 8:01:55 GMT -5
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Post by dariantownesvanzandt on Aug 14, 2024 9:40:54 GMT -5
Tough to give any concrete numbers on improvement. Sometimes the BE has 4 cupcake wins - like last year - and sometimes the worst team in the conference goes 7-11, like 2019.
I'm not saying we couldn't do better (or much worse) but... I'd be happy with a '23-'24 Butler type year. Lots of new bodies, little external expectations, some good wins along the way, and keeping the season exciting (read: NCAA striking distance) until the final couple of weeks.
Their 8 wins against Top 100 KP teams = good (incredibly, we have 1 in the last 3 seasons) Their 5-11 BE record against non-GU/DePaul teams = not so great
If we had that kind of year... with our current roster age/potential + EC's recruiting prowess... we'd be in line for a VERY bright future.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2024 10:34:43 GMT -5
I agree with the 6+ wins, but also don’t think that is much of a leap, and honestly would reflect at least a somewhat disappointing amount of progress… I think the problem is that young players often struggle on defense, where our biggest improvement will likely come. We're not just rolling out one freshman. While we may only be starting one (or conceivably none), there's going to be six on the roster, if I am counting right, and a good four of them are going to get playing time at least. Even after the freshmen, we have four more sophomores -- so ten (11, with redshirts) underclassmen and just two upperclassmen in Peavy and Epps. And, of course, only three of those players have even practiced with the team -- Epps, Fielder and McKenna. It's just a lot to come together defensively, and quickly. And young players often also struggle down the stretch, which is obviously a real problem for winning as many games as you should. I think Epps and Mack help us a lot there, but I could also just see us "deserving" a couple more wins than we get. Our other weakness is shooting, and while last year's team could have easily won 4 (or possibly more), we were in most of those games because of very strong 3 point shooting. Epps' streakiness is still here to our advantage, but Heath's good games kept us in a lot of games, and Styles and Brumbaugh also had their moments. Someone will need to step up there, because as a frequent underdog, our inability to exploit that will likely hurt us. And I don't see our freshmen bigs making up the difference down low. If Mack, Williams and anyone else step up on the shooting front, I do think there's a good chance we are pretty good.
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Post by hoyasaxaphone on Aug 14, 2024 10:39:35 GMT -5
For me, the addition of Julius takes me from 6/7 to 8/9 wins in the Big East this year. Depth at the 1 was critical and....Julius could be really good (in addition to really tall). Not sure that Seal moves the dial much...this year. We have already have a bunch of players competing for his position. And Fort is red-shirting but the same could be said of him.
I agree with posts above that we should have been better than 2 wins in the Big East last year. A few end of game finishes and better D throughout the season would have yielded 2 - 3 more wins. Then again, we were two missed uncontested layups from coming away with ZERO wins in the Big East.
This year will be fun. That, in and of itself, is a great improvement. What happens thereafter will hinge on who stays and who goes. We probably have too much talent for the available playing time which will lead to some unfortunate decisions (for Georgetown).
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Aug 14, 2024 11:33:14 GMT -5
I'm a Cooley supporter but my view coming into the season was basically "you can't have another season like the last one, and we need 8+ wins this year to get the program turned around." Not that I necessarily thought the team was ready to make that leap, but with a full offseason/NIL to recruit, that was the expectation. With the recent addition of these three recruits (even if one is going to redshirt), I think that expectation is much more reasonable. It sounds like Julius is going to give us much-needed rotational depth in the frontcourt, and adding Seal and Fort on top of that gives us more bodies for practice and possible emergency depth.
Not that "the roster I built with a full season and offseason to recruit it wasn't good enough" would ever have been a good excuse for Cooley if we were to have another bad year, but now there's really no excuse. I not only expect/want 8+ wins. I think it's a very realistic possibility. Do that, and keep the roster mostly intact (the latter might be the more difficult task in today's game) and we should be well position for 2025-26 and onward.
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Post by sportsastroguy on Aug 14, 2024 11:36:36 GMT -5
I agree with the 6+ wins, but also don’t think that is much of a leap, and honestly would reflect at least a somewhat disappointing amount of progress… I think the problem is that young players often struggle on defense, where our biggest improvement will likely come. We're not just rolling out one freshman. While we may only be starting one (or conceivably none), there's going to be six on the roster, if I am counting right, and a good four of them are going to get playing time at least. Even after the freshmen, we have four more sophomores -- so ten (11, with redshirts) underclassmen and just two upperclassmen in Peavy and Epps. And, of course, only three of those players have even practiced with the team -- Epps, Fielder and McKenna. It's just a lot to come together defensively, and quickly. And young players often also struggle down the stretch, which is obviously a real problem for winning as many games as you should. I think Epps and Mack help us a lot there, but I could also just see us "deserving" a couple more wins than we get. Our other weakness is shooting, and while last year's team could have easily won 4 (or possibly more), we were in most of those games because of very strong 3 point shooting. Epps' streakiness is still here to our advantage, but Heath's good games kept us in a lot of games, and Styles and Brumbaugh also had their moments. Someone will need to step up there, because as a frequent underdog, our inability to exploit that will likely hurt us. And I don't see our freshmen bigs making up the difference down low. If Mack, Williams and anyone else step up on the shooting front, I do think there's a good chance we are pretty good. the way I look at it as these freshmen have a lot better defensive instincts than the newbies the last couple years. Cooley certainly has flexibility with this team more so than he had last year so he can definitely find something that works defensively for them
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 14, 2024 11:48:20 GMT -5
A lot of these comments seem to be a parallel to the hope surrounding the 2021-22 season, which featured a top 20 freshman (Aminu Mohammed), the NY state player of the year (Jordan Riley), a well regarded prep school guard (Tyler Beard), a three point shooting ace (Kaiden Rice), a seasoned big man on the transfer wire (Tre King) and a freshman with a familiar name and lots of possibilities (Ryan Mutombo). Georgetown was picked 10th of 11 that season and didn't even live up to that, in no small part because Patrick Ewing could never build an actual team to work with.
Ed Cooley didn't build a team last year and it wasn't like he inherited one from Ewing-- Jay Heath and Wayne Bristol were the only scholarship returnees, so it really was "his" team, even if they didn't respond to Cooley's use of rapid time outs in a first half or his post-game recitations of how bad the team was. Georgetown will be picked 10th this season not because of Cooley, but that there hasn't been a demonstrable record of any consistent on-court play to date and Georgetown doesn't win the games it should in what passes for a home arena.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 14, 2024 12:36:54 GMT -5
Where's hoyaboya?😀
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Aug 14, 2024 13:18:12 GMT -5
A lot of these comments seem to be a parallel to the hope surrounding the 2021-22 season, which featured a top 20 freshman (Aminu Mohammed), the NY state player of the year (Jordan Riley), a well regarded prep school guard (Tyler Beard), a three point shooting ace (Kaiden Rice), a seasoned big man on the transfer wire (Tre King) and a freshman with a familiar name and lots of possibilities (Ryan Mutombo). Georgetown was picked 10th of 11 that season and didn't even live up to that, in no small part because Patrick Ewing could never build an actual team to work with. Ed Cooley didn't build a team last year and it wasn't like he inherited one from Ewing-- Jay Heath and Wayne Bristol were the only scholarship returnees, so it really was "his" team, even if they didn't respond to Cooley's use of rapid time outs in a first half or his post-game recitations of how bad the team was. Georgetown will be picked 10th this season not because of Cooley, but that there hasn't been a demonstrable record of any consistent on-court play to date and Georgetown doesn't win the games it should in what passes for a home arena. Aminu was on par with the top end of our recruits this year, but the rest were not. Jordan Riley- 3 star- ~140th ranked prospect Ryan Mutumo- 3 star ~120th ranked Tyler Beard- 3 star ~175th ranked Tre King- didn't play OTOH- ignoring Sorber as crossing out Aminu: Mulready- 4 star ~top 100 Hala- 4 star ~ top 100 Williams/Mckenna- roughly ranked where Beard was On top of that, they added 2 proven commodities in Mack and Peavy. It has been stated by Calebs Dad that Cooley took last year to bring in a bunch of players and see who sticks. They planned to only bring back a couple of the players. They have clearly added for the long haul bringing in high schoolers/young college players (outside of Peavy). He is building the type of roster that he excels coaching. WHile this year is going to be a struggle at times, there is far more talent than the last few years. Cooley has had massive success recruiting players like Burks in the past but I don't think many people are even expecting much from Burks or Curtis Williams. If Georgetown finishes 10th, its going to be because they didn't get anything from Sorber/Hala/Burks/Fielder. While I don't expect that to happen, there is clearly scenarios where the youth of this team does it in. But when you assemble this much talent, if this season is not successful, he will have at least weeded out players that do not fit at this level and he's continuously adding more and more talent to the program. Its possible to go from the complete cluster of Ewing in 1 season, but if you dedicate yourself into 1 year fits, its really a tough (but possible) way to build the program. Building it for the long haul takes more patience.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2024 14:43:09 GMT -5
we need 8+ wins this year to get the program turned around." I don't think it is particularly accurate to say that if we finish the season with seven Big East wins, the program is screwed. We will still be on a upward trajectory, and if we can retain a significant portion of the talent, we will go into the next year with a very strong team that has potential for 2+ years. I know retention is never assured, but seven wins feels strong enough, especially if there's an upward curve or a decent BE tourney, to sell a future. If we lose people, I don't think it will necessarily be because of lack of faith in the future. I think we can get 8, of course. It actually wouldn't shock me to see us be even better than that. But there's enough downsides out there that setting that expectation (better than 8 especially) as a baseline is tough.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2024 14:44:41 GMT -5
the way I look at it as these freshmen have a lot better defensive instincts than the newbies the last couple years. Cooley certainly has flexibility with this team more so than he had last year so he can definitely find something that works defensively for them Aside from the small backcourt, they certainly fit a Cooley defense much better than last year's squad. Rotations are always a challenge for first year players, though, so it may have to have interim steps.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Aug 14, 2024 14:59:36 GMT -5
SS … sshhhhhh! #NamingCalls There is no surer sign or positive progress than the trolls fleeing the ship
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2024 15:14:28 GMT -5
Aminu was on par with the top end of our recruits this year, but the rest were not. Jordan Riley- 3 star- ~140th ranked prospect Ryan Mutumo- 3 star ~120th ranked Tyler Beard- 3 star ~175th ranked Tre King- didn't play OTOH- ignoring Sorber as crossing out Aminu: Mulready- 4 star ~top 100 Hala- 4 star ~ top 100 Williams/Mckenna- roughly ranked where Beard was On top of that, they added 2 proven commodities in Mack and Peavy. It has been stated by Calebs Dad that Cooley took last year to bring in a bunch of players and see who sticks. They planned to only bring back a couple of the players. They have clearly added for the long haul bringing in high schoolers/young college players (outside of Peavy). He is building the type of roster that he excels coaching. WHile this year is going to be a struggle at times, there is far more talent than the last few years. Cooley has had massive success recruiting players like Burks in the past but I don't think many people are even expecting much from Burks or Curtis Williams. If Georgetown finishes 10th, its going to be because they didn't get anything from Sorber/Hala/Burks/Fielder. While I don't expect that to happen, there is clearly scenarios where the youth of this team does it in. But when you assemble this much talent, if this season is not successful, he will have at least weeded out players that do not fit at this level and he's continuously adding more and more talent to the program. Its possible to go from the complete cluster of Ewing in 1 season, but if you dedicate yourself into 1 year fits, its really a tough (but possible) way to build the program. Building it for the long haul takes more patience. I think the caution of overhyping freshman is valid, even if the Aminu class is not a very good example. As you note, the class wasn't great even before we highlight that Aminu was a pretty terrible misrank -- I really don't understand how people thought he would translate well as he moved up the ladder, but whatever. It's possible that someone here is a terrible misrank, but given that they aren't ranked as highly and their skillsets tend to be more advanced, I doubt it. Still, there's lots of recent history to be wary of. Early JTIII classes had 5 McD's AA across 3 classes, complemented with guys like Jason Clark and Henry Sims. But the players largely developed at different paces and the rest of the classes were weak, and we never reached the heights of the Green/Hibbert class (except the two that were on it). More relevantly, 2010-2011, but between early exit (Porter), academics/discipline (Whittington), medical (Adams), development time needed (Hopkins and Trawick), we got probably 7 or so quality player years out of a potential 20. You never get 20, of course, but that's still pretty low. And 2013-14 ... Campbell, Copeland, Mourning, Peak and White. Followed up with Govan, Derrickson (and Kaleb and Agau). Injuries and transfers, a couple of early exits. And, of course ... Akinjo, Mac, Leblanc (and later, a Yurt transfer in). Chemistry and transfers and whatever the hell else happened. Ewing had zero track record of development or in game coaching coming in. It's clear that Cooley builds a better locker room, period. So comparing Cooley to Ewing is silly, regardless of last year. But the key for Cooley will be consistent talent. Because some are going to go pro early, some are not going to be as good as expected, some are going to transfer, some are going to get hurt. If we toss transfers this year in, his classes are more or less: Peavy Epps Mack, Fielder, Burks, Curtis Williams Sorber, Halaifonua, Mulready, McKenna, Caleb Williams, Seal Fort That would put a ton of onus on transfers in and retention this year, because we'd find it harder to recruit freshmen. The move to 15 scholarships certainly helps keep slots open, though the potential PT blockage will still make it harder. But that has the look of two classes back to back that are at least decent and potentially much better.
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Post by dariantownesvanzandt on Aug 14, 2024 15:43:19 GMT -5
[Taps the sign]
This year's Top 11: 7 Top 100 kids, 3 100-200 kids, 1 200+/unranked
'21-'22: 1/3/7
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 15, 2024 0:15:32 GMT -5
A lot of these comments seem to be a parallel to the hope surrounding the 2021-22 season, which featured a top 20 freshman (Aminu Mohammed), the NY state player of the year (Jordan Riley), a well regarded prep school guard (Tyler Beard), a three point shooting ace (Kaiden Rice), a seasoned big man on the transfer wire (Tre King) and a freshman with a familiar name and lots of possibilities (Ryan Mutombo). Georgetown was picked 10th of 11 that season and didn't even live up to that, in no small part because Patrick Ewing could never build an actual team to work with. Ed Cooley didn't build a team last year and it wasn't like he inherited one from Ewing-- Jay Heath and Wayne Bristol were the only scholarship returnees, so it really was "his" team, even if they didn't respond to Cooley's use of rapid time outs in a first half or his post-game recitations of how bad the team was. Georgetown will be picked 10th this season not because of Cooley, but that there hasn't been a demonstrable record of any consistent on-court play to date and Georgetown doesn't win the games it should in what passes for a home arena. Aminu was on par with the top end of our recruits this year, but the rest were not. Jordan Riley- 3 star- ~140th ranked prospect Ryan Mutumo- 3 star ~120th ranked Tyler Beard- 3 star ~175th ranked Tre King- didn't play OTOH- ignoring Sorber as crossing out Aminu: Mulready- 4 star ~top 100 Hala- 4 star ~ top 100 Williams/Mckenna- roughly ranked where Beard was Whoa. McKenna was a Top 75 player by various recruiting sites before he made the jump that led him to skip his senior year in high school. He was a four star recruit. I would love it if Hoya fans actually tried acquainting themselves with him a bit. It’s one thing to not have personal high expectations of him but it’s quite another to lower his actual rankings. McKenna was Cooley’s first high school recruit after getting the job at Georgetown and highly regarded. When I wrote that this current front court will have three players ranked in the top 70 when in high school, I meant Thomas, Julius and Drew McKenna. I am certain someone will run off and try to find a site that did not have McKenna that high. Whatever. Just like with Mulready things fluctuated, but with McKenna it was harder to pin down because of his attempts to skip ahead and the following delay that prevented him from arriving in the Fall of 2023.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 15, 2024 0:22:12 GMT -5
A lot of these comments seem to be a parallel to the hope surrounding the 2021-22 season, which featured a top 20 freshman (Aminu Mohammed), the NY state player of the year (Jordan Riley), a well regarded prep school guard (Tyler Beard), a three point shooting ace (Kaiden Rice), a seasoned big man on the transfer wire (Tre King) and a freshman with a familiar name and lots of possibilities (Ryan Mutombo). Georgetown was picked 10th of 11 that season and didn't even live up to that, in no small part because Patrick Ewing could never build an actual team to work with. Not even close to the current group, not to mention lacking the height/length as well. Who was hyping Rice at the time by the way? There wasn’t the automatic trust in the veteran transfer that short time ago as there is now. And a few of us tried warning people about the Mutombo hype.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 15, 2024 6:45:59 GMT -5
A lot of these comments seem to be a parallel to the hope surrounding the 2021-22 season, which featured a top 20 freshman (Aminu Mohammed), the NY state player of the year (Jordan Riley), a well regarded prep school guard (Tyler Beard), a three point shooting ace (Kaiden Rice), a seasoned big man on the transfer wire (Tre King) and a freshman with a familiar name and lots of possibilities (Ryan Mutombo). Georgetown was picked 10th of 11 that season and didn't even live up to that, in no small part because Patrick Ewing could never build an actual team to work with. Not even close to the current group, not to mention lacking the height/length as well. Who was hyping Rice at the time by the way? There wasn’t the automatic trust in the veteran transfer that short time ago as there is now. And a few of us tried warning people about the Mutombo hype. Ewing compared him to Reggie Miller
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Aug 15, 2024 8:12:37 GMT -5
Aminu was on par with the top end of our recruits this year, but the rest were not. Jordan Riley- 3 star- ~140th ranked prospect Ryan Mutumo- 3 star ~120th ranked Tyler Beard- 3 star ~175th ranked Tre King- didn't play OTOH- ignoring Sorber as crossing out Aminu: Mulready- 4 star ~top 100 Hala- 4 star ~ top 100 Williams/Mckenna- roughly ranked where Beard was Whoa. McKenna was a Top 75 player by various recruiting sites before he made the jump that led him to skip his senior year in high school. He was a four star recruit. I would love it if Hoya fans actually tried acquainting themselves with him a bit. It’s one thing to not have personal high expectations of him but it’s quite another to lower his actual rankings. McKenna was Cooley’s first high school recruit after getting the job at Georgetown and highly regarded. When I wrote that this current front court will have three players ranked in the top 70 when in high school, I meant Thomas, Julius and Drew McKenna. I am certain someone will run off and try to find a site that did not have McKenna that high. Whatever. Just like with Mulready things fluctuated, but with McKenna it was harder to pin down because of his attempts to skip ahead and the following delay that prevented him from arriving in the Fall of 2023. I was just using the same site for all of them for consistency.
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