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Post by trillesthoya on Jan 9, 2023 14:57:15 GMT -5
The reason Georgetown became DC’s team isn’t because of proximity. It’s because they were GOOD and because they represented something off the court that the city could get behind. It’s the reason why the Twerps still aren’t the DMV’s team despite the signs they throw up on highways to force it. The city is ultimately the core constituency I am concerned about, and I promise you that is a much larger group of fans to tap into than Georgetown’s student and alumni base will ever be. You’re trying to resurrect something that cannot be. There is only one JT2 and folks in DC aren’t going to wear Gtown Starter jackets any time soon. We need to rebuild from the ground up, not recreate the’80s. I don’t think that’s what I’m arguing for. I understand the hype and larger than life persona of JT2 isn’t something we can ever replicate again nor is that what the objective is. Unless you’re trying to say it’s impossible to maintain an identity as a primarily black institution again while also winning, which is something I disagree with fundamentally. I think JT3 did an excellent job of this without being a national icon like his father and would love if we could combine his character and ideals with the actual winning side of things again in our future coach down the line. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 9, 2023 15:17:27 GMT -5
I think it’s worth pointing out that the student/alumni fanbase is self-replicating. The non-university fanbase is aging and increasingly disinterested (can’t blame them) and will never be replaced. It will never be 1984 again in college basketball. Frankly a lot of them are just no longer with us. The reason Georgetown became DC’s team isn’t because of proximity. It’s because they were GOOD and because they represented something off the court that the city could get behind. It’s the reason why the Twerps still aren’t the DMV’s team despite the signs they throw up on highways to force it. The city is ultimately the core constituency I am concerned about, and I promise you that is a much larger group of fans to tap into than Georgetown’s student and alumni base will ever be. That is discriminatory and racist, and I’m a minority. No one, of any race/color/sex/etc, wants to be associated with a losing program. I don’t know if you’re watching the attendance numbers at CapOne, but they are historically horrible. Not even this imaginary large African American population of fans of the Thompson/Ewing Basketball Program and who we supposedly would lose is coming out to see the games now. The fact is that the Thompson/Ewing clan has done more to hurt the significance of the program with the African-American community than anyone else. They’ve turned the beloved winning program of old to a perennial loser. When I read GU’s carefully worded statements (I bet it’s drafted by Reed, DeGioia, probably a lawyer and a HR head) regarding Ewing, the word “support” stands out. Why do you think that is? Whenever the firings start, if ever, and Ronny et al. Start crying foul, the Administration will be able to say that it supported the Basketball Program. Since no contradictory statements have been issued by the TAC, no one will be able to whine, or they will but no one will believe them. The path is clear. To be clear, I want the best possible coach out there regardless of race, sex, etc… In fact, last off-season, I mentioned looking into that successful female African American coach who was looking for a new challenge. Talk about an opportunity to make history! |
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 9, 2023 16:04:11 GMT -5
Honestly, I find this line of thinking on this pretty disgusting - to somehow be locked into a certain race for a certain position seems antithetical to everything JT Jr stood for. But it does illuminate yet another quandary facing the school whenever it decides to end this painful Ewing experiment. I don't think the "brand" of Georgetown basketball represents anything anymore, to be frank. I’m not sure why people keep citing JT2 in this conversation, as if he is a religious leader whose guidance and subjective beliefs we must follow as law. JT2’s beliefs have nothing to do with my argument and they most certainly are not what I am advocating for. At risk of making this conversation overtly political which is not my intention, I see nothing wrong with wanting to preserve the status of a historically black institution like Georgetown hoops even if the school itself is not an HBCU - to call that desire “disgusting” is hilarious and quite telling. No one is locked into hiring a coach of a particular race, as evidenced by the fact that I am calling for us to hire Pitino, I just believe that our heritage as Black America’s team is a fundamental part of our identity and its something we should encourage moving forward rather than leaving in the past, and continuing that legacy is much easier when you actually have a black coach. I recognize that Georgetown’s brand as you claim is functionally meaningless, but that is something I want to reverse rather than becoming effectively a semi-professional soulless entity that 99% of other schools have become. Except … Georgetown basketball is clearly not an “historically black institution.” |
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miracles87
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Post by miracles87 on Jan 9, 2023 16:30:43 GMT -5
Show me one HM coach who consistently overperforms with their players but lags in the recruiting department? Show kids you can develop them & they'll come Kids generally aren’t jumping at the opportunity to play for sixty year old guys who spent their entire lives coaching low majors. Going to go out and guess 99% of recruits can’t name a recognizable player that Jones has ever developed besides maybe Jordan Bruner (who was more or less a disaster at Bama relative to expectations). I can’t really say for sure who he has developed at Yale into high major caliber players, I’m sure there are some as there always will be by nature of being D1, but this to me seems way riskier than you’re making it out to be. In my opinion, hiring an Ivy League guy is effectively surrendering on ever being a national competitor again and I’d rather roll the dice on a risky but exciting guy like Mike Jones instead (and I’ve been very vocally in opposition to hiring him). If we’re going to down Id much rather go down swinging. Our last Ivy hire turned out pretty well, didn't it? |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2023 17:42:28 GMT -5
Kids generally aren’t jumping at the opportunity to play for sixty year old guys who spent their entire lives coaching low majors. Going to go out and guess 99% of recruits can’t name a recognizable player that Jones has ever developed besides maybe Jordan Bruner (who was more or less a disaster at Bama relative to expectations). I can’t really say for sure who he has developed at Yale into high major caliber players, I’m sure there are some as there always will be by nature of being D1, but this to me seems way riskier than you’re making it out to be. In my opinion, hiring an Ivy League guy is effectively surrendering on ever being a national competitor again and I’d rather roll the dice on a risky but exciting guy like Mike Jones instead (and I’ve been very vocally in opposition to hiring him). If we’re going to down Id much rather go down swinging. Our last Ivy hire turned out pretty well, didn't it? While I admire and was a supporter of JT3, and he had many great seasons with Georgetown, it's important to remember that the outcome of our last Ivy hire failing was hiring Patrick Ewing. And so, here we are. Also, comparing JT3 to James Jones is a ridiculous comparison. In four years at Princeton, JT3 made the NCAA tournament twice, and each year over year he improved Princeton's ranking (ranked 164, 145, 133, 108). When JT3 was hired by Georgetown, he was 38 years old. 38! In comparison, in 22 completed seasons (not including this year), James Jones has made the tournment 3 times (4 if you grant him the COVID year). So 3 out of 22. And Jones' teams' rankings have really wavered all over the place. He's had eras where his teams are in the 200s, some in the 100s. In the 22 completed seasons, he's only had top 100 teams 4 times. I realize he has some limitations from being at Yale and in the Ivy League, but if he was a coaching savant, his results would be better. And in February he'd be 59. He is who he is. If DeGioia is going to announce that Georgetown is placing less emphasis on basketball, like the Ivies, then Jones might make sense. Or if better choices completely spurn us because of Ronny, or something like that. But if we want to be a nationally competitive program, Jones is not the choice. He'd clearly be better than Ewing, but the bar is so low that's meaningless. I don't think Jones is a bad guy, I don't think he's a bad coach, I just think he has a low ceiling, and he would not in any way excite anybody. I guess in that sense he's a compromise choice, but that's not what we need for this moment. |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Jan 9, 2023 18:52:20 GMT -5
It's a Yale program that hadn't won the Ivy League since 1963 when Jones showed up. It's not Princeton or Penn. Yale went a decade without a winning Ivy League record before Jones got the job. Since his first year on the job, Jones has had one losing conference season in over 20 years. He's finished no worse than 4th in the league for 21 straight seasons.
JTIII inherited a Princeton program coming off years under Carmody in which they finished: 39th, 15th, 60th, 100th.
A top 100 KP ranking is not the baseline I'd use to judge an Ivy coach, it's not easy to do.
Top 100 finishes in the Ivy since Jones took over Yale:
Penn: 7 (only once since Dunphy left)
Harvard: 5 (Amaker blatantly stacking the deck in the early 2010s)
Yale: 4
Princeton: 4
Cornell: 1
Brown: 0
Dartmouth: 0
Columbia: 0
Considering the age he was when hired, it's likely it took Jones some time grow as a coach - and now has averaged a KenPom ranking of 112 over the last decade.
Ruling him out as being someone who can elevate the program back to Top 20 status is shortsighted in my opinion. Good, smart coaches always have a chance to figure it out - especially when recruiting high school players at a 4 and 5 star level has become less and less of a necessity. You need to develop what you get, fill in the holes from the portal (when a lot of those 4/5 stars shake free - ie Hopkins at PC this year) and coach it up while cultivating a culture around it. There's no reason someone of the caliber of Jones can't replicate what Providence, Creighton and Marquette are doing lately.
Again, I don't want James Jones - would prefer to not get that far down the list - but if that's the outcome I do not at all think it's Georgetown throwing in the towel on being a nationally competitive program, so long as he gets the same support and resources internally the Thompson's and Ewing's have been afforded (and places like Marquette, Creighton provide). There are some people I'd think Georgetown was throwing in the towel with, he specifically is not one of them.
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miracles87
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Post by miracles87 on Jan 9, 2023 19:03:28 GMT -5
Our last Ivy hire turned out pretty well, didn't it? While I admire and was a supporter of JT3, and he had many great seasons with Georgetown, it's important to remember that the outcome of our last Ivy hire failing was hiring Patrick Ewing. And so, here we are. Also, comparing JT3 to James Jones is a ridiculous comparison. In four years at Princeton, JT3 made the NCAA tournament twice, and each year over year he improved Princeton's ranking (ranked 164, 145, 133, 108). When JT3 was hired by Georgetown, he was 38 years old. 38! In comparison, in 22 completed seasons (not including this year), James Jones has made the tournment 3 times (4 if you grant him the COVID year). So 3 out of 22. And Jones' teams' rankings have really wavered all over the place. He's had eras where his teams are in the 200s, some in the 100s. In the 22 completed seasons, he's only had top 100 teams 4 times. I realize he has some limitations from being at Yale and in the Ivy League, but if he was a coaching savant, his results would be better. And in February he'd be 59. He is who he is. If DeGioia is going to announce that Georgetown is placing less emphasis on basketball, like the Ivies, then Jones might make sense. Or if better choices completely spurn us because of Ronny, or something like that. But if we want to be a nationally competitive program, Jones is not the choice. He'd clearly be better than Ewing, but the bar is so low that's meaningless. I don't think Jones is a bad guy, I don't think he's a bad coach, I just think he has a low ceiling, and he would not in any way excite anybody. I guess in that sense he's a compromise choice, but that's not what we need for this moment. That is some priceless stuff, keep it coming! Hilarious! |
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 9, 2023 19:30:06 GMT -5
Our last Ivy hire turned out pretty well, didn't it? While I admire and was a supporter of JT3, and he had many great seasons with Georgetown, it's important to remember that the outcome of our last Ivy hire failing was hiring Patrick Ewing. And so, here we are. Also, comparing JT3 to James Jones is a ridiculous comparison. In four years at Princeton, JT3 made the NCAA tournament twice, and each year over year he improved Princeton's ranking (ranked 164, 145, 133, 108). When JT3 was hired by Georgetown, he was 38 years old. 38! In comparison, in 22 completed seasons (not including this year), James Jones has made the tournment 3 times (4 if you grant him the COVID year). So 3 out of 22. And Jones' teams' rankings have really wavered all over the place. He's had eras where his teams are in the 200s, some in the 100s. In the 22 completed seasons, he's only had top 100 teams 4 times. I realize he has some limitations from being at Yale and in the Ivy League, but if he was a coaching savant, his results would be better. And in February he'd be 59. He is who he is. If DeGioia is going to announce that Georgetown is placing less emphasis on basketball, like the Ivies, then Jones might make sense. Or if better choices completely spurn us because of Ronny, or something like that. But if we want to be a nationally competitive program, Jones is not the choice. He'd clearly be better than Ewing, but the bar is so low that's meaningless. I don't think Jones is a bad guy, I don't think he's a bad coach, I just think he has a low ceiling, and he would not in any way excite anybody. I guess in that sense he's a compromise choice, but that's not what we need for this moment. Sounds mediocre. But that’s basically what happened to DePaul when they cut ties with the Meyers. They’ve had an army of mediocre at best coaches in over the last 30 years even hiring one mediocre coach twice. |
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Jan 9, 2023 19:37:15 GMT -5
You’re trying to resurrect something that cannot be. There is only one JT2 and folks in DC aren’t going to wear Gtown Starter jackets any time soon. We need to rebuild from the ground up, not recreate the’80s. I don’t think that’s what I’m arguing for. I understand the hype and larger than life persona of JT2 isn’t something we can ever replicate again nor is that what the objective is. Unless you’re trying to say it’s impossible to maintain an identity as a primarily black institution again while also winning, which is something I disagree with fundamentally. I think JT3 did an excellent job of this without being a national icon like his father and would love if we could combine his character and ideals with the actual winning side of things again in our future coach down the line. Setting aside the comment that GU (or maybe you just mean the men's basketball team?) is a "primarily black institution"--no one is saying that its impossible for a black coach to win at Georgetown. Rather, a lot of people on this board believe that GU should hire a coach who is as close to a "sure thing" as possible and who can initiate a quick turn around. Pitino and Mack meet that criteria. But aside from Cooley (who I frankly doubt will be interested), are there any other black coaches who are both proven high level and available? Mike Jones and Kim English might come if offered, but they are far from proven at this stage. If being "primarily black" was all it took to get fans, Howard would be DC's team. First and foremost, to get fans in the door, you have to be good. I have little doubt that if Pitino comes in and turns things around quickly, more DC residents will start buying tickets again regardless of the color of his skin. |
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Post by trillesthoya on Jan 9, 2023 19:49:14 GMT -5
I don’t think that’s what I’m arguing for. I understand the hype and larger than life persona of JT2 isn’t something we can ever replicate again nor is that what the objective is. Unless you’re trying to say it’s impossible to maintain an identity as a primarily black institution again while also winning, which is something I disagree with fundamentally. I think JT3 did an excellent job of this without being a national icon like his father and would love if we could combine his character and ideals with the actual winning side of things again in our future coach down the line. Setting aside the comment that GU (or maybe you just mean the men's basketball team?) is a "primarily black institution"--no one is saying that its impossible for a black coach to win at Georgetown. Rather, a lot of people on this board believe that GU should hire a coach who is as close to a "sure thing" as possible and who can initiate a quick turn around. Pitino and Mack meet that criteria. But aside from Cooley (who I frankly doubt will be interested), are there any other black coaches who are both proven high level and available? Mike Jones and Kim English might come if offered, but they are far from proven at this stage. If being "primarily black" was all it took to get fans, Howard would be DC's team. First and foremost, to get fans in the door, you have to be good. I have little doubt that if Pitino comes in and turns things around quickly, more DC residents will start buying tickets again regardless of the color of his skin. I’m not sure you’ve read my posts today. I’ve said repeatedly I want Pitino as a temporary fix and yes, I was referring to the hoops program as a primarily black institution which is undeniable from Jt2 onwards. Have also said explicitly that we have to be good to for the city to get behind us. |
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jan 9, 2023 21:06:47 GMT -5
While I admire and was a supporter of JT3, and he had many great seasons with Georgetown, it's important to remember that the outcome of our last Ivy hire failing was hiring Patrick Ewing. And so, here we are. Also, comparing JT3 to James Jones is a ridiculous comparison. In four years at Princeton, JT3 made the NCAA tournament twice, and each year over year he improved Princeton's ranking (ranked 164, 145, 133, 108). When JT3 was hired by Georgetown, he was 38 years old. 38! In comparison, in 22 completed seasons (not including this year), James Jones has made the tournment 3 times (4 if you grant him the COVID year). So 3 out of 22. And Jones' teams' rankings have really wavered all over the place. He's had eras where his teams are in the 200s, some in the 100s. In the 22 completed seasons, he's only had top 100 teams 4 times. I realize he has some limitations from being at Yale and in the Ivy League, but if he was a coaching savant, his results would be better. And in February he'd be 59. He is who he is. If DeGioia is going to announce that Georgetown is placing less emphasis on basketball, like the Ivies, then Jones might make sense. Or if better choices completely spurn us because of Ronny, or something like that. But if we want to be a nationally competitive program, Jones is not the choice. He'd clearly be better than Ewing, but the bar is so low that's meaningless. I don't think Jones is a bad guy, I don't think he's a bad coach, I just think he has a low ceiling, and he would not in any way excite anybody. I guess in that sense he's a compromise choice, but that's not what we need for this moment. Sounds mediocre. But that’s basically what happened to DePaul when they cut ties with the Meyers. They’ve had an army of mediocre at best coaches in over the last 30 years even hiring one mediocre coach twice. Joey Meyer was 3 - 23 in his last year at DePaul. Cutting ties with the Meyers isn’t what led to DePaul’s demise . Sticking with them too long was. Now go stand in the corner with your dunce cap on, professor. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 9, 2023 21:27:31 GMT -5
Setting aside the comment that GU (or maybe you just mean the men's basketball team?) is a "primarily black institution"--no one is saying that its impossible for a black coach to win at Georgetown. Rather, a lot of people on this board believe that GU should hire a coach who is as close to a "sure thing" as possible and who can initiate a quick turn around. Pitino and Mack meet that criteria. But aside from Cooley (who I frankly doubt will be interested), are there any other black coaches who are both proven high level and available? Mike Jones and Kim English might come if offered, but they are far from proven at this stage. If being "primarily black" was all it took to get fans, Howard would be DC's team. First and foremost, to get fans in the door, you have to be good. I have little doubt that if Pitino comes in and turns things around quickly, more DC residents will start buying tickets again regardless of the color of his skin. I’m not sure you’ve read my posts today. I’ve said repeatedly I want Pitino as a temporary fix and yes, I was referring to the hoops program as a primarily black institution which is undeniable from Jt2 onwards. Have also said explicitly that we have to be good to for the city to get behind us. So you’d accept Pitino as a temporary fix and a bridge to the next black head coach? Is this satire? |
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Post by trillesthoya on Jan 9, 2023 21:54:54 GMT -5
I’m not sure you’ve read my posts today. I’ve said repeatedly I want Pitino as a temporary fix and yes, I was referring to the hoops program as a primarily black institution which is undeniable from Jt2 onwards. Have also said explicitly that we have to be good to for the city to get behind us. So you’d accept Pitino as a temporary fix and a bridge to the next black head coach? Is this satire? This isn’t a productive response. My concern right now is with Georgetown basketball existentially. If we whif on the next hire I am skeptical the folks that matter (admin and donors) will continue to aspire for Georgetown to ever be a national contender, and as a result funding and support for the team will slowly disappear. That’s why I want Pitino, because he is a sure thing that is guaranteed to get you back to relevancy. After that, once we’ve proven we still have staying power and Pitino is likely ready to retire (guessing in four or five years), I would like us to eventually return to what I consider to be Georgetown’s identity. You can call that satire all you want but it’s an entirely feasible path forward. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 9, 2023 22:39:38 GMT -5
So you’d accept Pitino as a temporary fix and a bridge to the next black head coach? Is this satire? This isn’t a productive response. My concern right now is with Georgetown basketball existentially. If we whif on the next hire I am skeptical the folks that matter (admin and donors) will continue to aspire for Georgetown to ever be a national contender, and as a result funding and support for the team will slowly disappear. That’s why I want Pitino, because he is a sure thing that is guaranteed to get you back to relevancy. After that, once we’ve proven we still have staying power and Pitino is likely ready to retire (guessing in four or five years), I would like us to eventually return to what I consider to be Georgetown’s identity. You can call that satire all you want but it’s an entirely feasible path forward. What is Georgetown’s identity in your view? |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2023 23:30:29 GMT -5
I have no interest in wading into the discussion about the race of our future coach, except to say that I don't think it should matter. The best person should be chosen.
But, since we are talking about the cultural impact of Georgetown in the African American community, I do think it's interesting to note that in 1980, 70% of Washington DC's population was African American, whereas the latest Census estimates are 45.8%. So, the DC of John Thompson's heydey is very different than DC now. It's drastically changed even since I graduated 20 years ago.
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cas92
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Post by cas92 on Jan 9, 2023 23:44:22 GMT -5
I have no interest in wading into the discussion about the race of our future coach, except to say that I don't think it should matter. The best person should be chosen. But, since we are talking about the cultural impact of Georgetown in the African American community, I do think it's interesting to note that in 1980, 70% of Washington DC's population was African American, whereas in the latest Census estimates are 45.8%. So, the DC of John Thompson's heydey is very different than DC now. It's drastically changed even since I graduated 20 years ago. The gentrification of DC proper has been ongoing for some time now - and PG County has been the beneficiary of the exodus from the city (although public transport links to that part of Southern MD continually fails the populace w/ regards to commuting for work, etc.). One notable incident concerns the PCS Mobile Store @ the corner of Florida Avenue NW and 7th Street, which was forced to curtail airing of DC's native Go Go sound (Chuck Brown's legacy) from its premises owing to a public complaint stemming from a luxury apartment complex (built in 2016), The Shay - www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-different-kind-of-cellphone-store-business-was-a-dc-staple-long-before-go-gos-brief-silence/2019/04/12/735a7498-5d23-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.htmlThe public furor over how this was managed (and the initial complaint fielded) likely informed the eventual designation of Go Go as DC's official music in 2020. |
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 10, 2023 9:44:33 GMT -5
Does anyone think Reed has done anything to keep his job? From the moment we plucked him from noted aspirational/peer program at Cleveland St? Think he and Pat both need to go day 1 off the offseason imo.
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1427hoya
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Post by 1427hoya on Jan 10, 2023 10:02:49 GMT -5
Does anyone think Reed has done anything to keep his job? From the moment we plucked him from noted aspirational/peer program at Cleveland St? Think he and Pat both need to go day 1 off the offseason imo. There is ongoing debate how much control over men's basketball Reed has. Then, there is the fact that a lot of Georgetown teams are doing well. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 10, 2023 10:16:03 GMT -5
Does anyone think Reed has done anything to keep his job? From the moment we plucked him from noted aspirational/peer program at Cleveland St? Think he and Pat both need to go day 1 off the offseason imo. There is ongoing debate how much control over men's basketball Reed has. Then, there is the fact that a lot of Georgetown teams are doing well. There is ongoing debate, but it is pretty clear that the decision-makers over the program are DeGioia, the Board, and Ronny Thompson. When Ewing hit trouble last year, it wasn't Reed that was reported to be seeking new assistants, but rather Ronny Thompson. I realize Reed did make the statement in support of Ewing last year, and then made another statement this year, but we have no idea how those statements came to be, and I think it is safe to say Reed did not make those statements without some knowledge, approval, and perhaps coaxing from DeGioia. I do not claim to know the inside machinations of our athletic department (especially outside basketball), but I often think people who blame Reed do it mostly based on his title and not on any concrete deficiencies. To the extent he does have an active role in managing our program, I might agree that he needs to go, but I really think that's highly unlikely to be the case. And Reed certainly has no authority to hire/fire the head coach (nor should he on his own - it is by far the university's largest employment contract). |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 10, 2023 10:31:02 GMT -5
Does anyone think Reed has done anything to keep his job? From the moment we plucked him from noted aspirational/peer program at Cleveland St? Think he and Pat both need to go day 1 off the offseason imo. Lee Reed has done well at Georgetown in a job that is not as easy as some might think. He's responsible for 30 teams and works to maintain a positive experience for 780 student athletes and, by extension, their parents. Many, many things are not under his control (men's basketball, poor facilities for most teams, number of scholarships, etc.) so he has to work with what Georgetown gives him. Nonetheless, he's been recognized by his peers and wants to be at Georgetown. Institutionally, Georgetown takes a dim view of administrators who come to GU largely to land a better job elsewhere, and such was the case with Reed's predecessor, Bernard Muir. Another example of this was Juan Gonzalez, who was VP of Student Affairs for just three years before bolting to Arizona State. nacda.com/news/2018/7/25/Lee_Reed_Announced_as_First_Former_NACDA_Intern_to_Become_Association_amp_8217_s_President.aspx |
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