RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,143
|
Post by RBHoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:25:47 GMT -5
Do people really think that handing the keys of the basketball program of a predominantly white institution to a white coach would result in blowback? There's a ~100% chance it will result in some blow back from some percentage of the population. The only question is how loud that gets, and how much if any traction it gets in the mainstream. But you see that sort of criticism all the time on social media and even among a certain percentage of Hoyatalk posters (many of whom, thankfully, have moved on from posting here). There's a segment of the fan base that is loyal to Big John first, that became attached to the program in the "starter jacket" era, and felt a strong connection to the program JTII built. If JT2 had been a white coach with largely white or mixed race teams (think Coach K/Duke) and had equivalent on-court success in those years, that segment of the fan base never would have become fans. It was more about what he and the team stood for, and gave those fans a sense of connection/ownership. And there's a sense among some in that segment that the largely white fan base that ousted JT3 and is now trying to oust Patrick in order to install Rick Pitino, John Beilein or Chris Mack is doing so because they want to "take the program back".... In other words, they think that (largely white) fans are the racists who want the program back in the hands of "one of their own." To be clear I do not subscribe to this view, but this is the basic understanding I've developed from reading/hearing some that do. Then of course there is the Ronny wildcard. Remember how his exit at Ball St went? If we assume that he is also sent packing at season's end, is there some chance he falls back on that same playbook? You can't tell me that there aren't a lot of media outlets who wouldn't love to run a story about JT2's son criticizing DeGioia or the Georgetown community as being racist. Those kinds of stories always get clicks, especially when it's a Thompson talking about Georgetown. And I'm sure that over 40 years or so, Ronny and the inner circle HAVE actually heard or seen some racist stuff from members of the community, maybe even from people of prominence, at least enough for some reporter or columnist with an axe to grind (or just fishing for clicks) to spin up a story. I am not making any judgments about the community, but it just seems statistically probable that with this many people over that many years, Ronny has seen or knows about some racist stuff that happened to him, his brother, his father or Patrick from within the Georgetown community. So yes, I think it will come up. And I think someone like DeGioia is probably petrified of that kind of thing especially at this phase of his career. If he hires a Pitino or some other white coach, he leaves himself open to that criticism. If he instead hires James Jones, some of the criticism from the Team Thompson loyalists may still come, but he can make the very obvious "We can't be THAT racist if the new coach is also black" rebuttal, and it probably never goes anywhere. And I think that will be appealing to JD as he tries to make this hire. |
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 19,532
|
Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:36:26 GMT -5
To me, his London comments indicate that he is preparing to raise the white flag because he doesn't believe that Georgetown should even attempt to compete in the new landscape of college basketball and NIL. He, of all people, should have been prepared for that change due to his time at the NCAA. I wrote "their vision and image of Georgetown" not specifically that of the basketball program. Thus, a guy like Jones from Yale would fit their image of Georgetown as an "Ivy" type university. I want to push back on that because.... - where did he talk in the London comments about academics, or graduation, or APR? Nowhere. - where did he say Georgetown wouldn't do NIL? His statements were more towards (a) they didn't have any real NIL setup and won't till this half of 2023 and (b) the NCAA is in danger of losing safe harbor on antitrust, and all that is sort of a smokescreen - if you don't have those deals setup, how are you successfully recruiting 4* and 5* and top transfers currently? Georgetown will do NIL because they will have to. I go to any of the other Big East programs - I can buy a Jared Bynum autograph by clicking through their roster (https://friars.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster?path=mbball -> "Jared Bynum Marketplace"). If I want a Ryan Nembhard cameo? Click through his page on the Creighton roster : gocreighton.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/ryan-nembhard/7461 -> Deals (opendorse) Those are the schools we are closely related to - not the Ivies. I know that we're not closely related to the Ivies. I'm merely suggesting that is what Jack D thinks. The reason Jack D could not bring up academics, graduation rates, and APR in London - had he done so, it would have been an implicit criticism of Ewing for non-basketball reasons. Accordingly, Jack could only reference the coaching record and his continued support of Ewing. He won't venture into other reasons that Ewing has failed beyond the abysmal on-court record. |
|
hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,995
|
Post by hoyaguy on Jan 9, 2023 11:40:22 GMT -5
Let’s just say we did offer pitino and St. John’s might be competing, we ca outbid them easily right?
|
|
|
|
Post by trillesthoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:43:01 GMT -5
Let’s just say we did offer pitino and St. John’s might be competing, we ca outbid them easily right? Based on current contracts for Ewing and Anderson absolutely. They’d have to significantly increase their budget of we’d have to significantly reduce ours, both of which is possible but no reason to suggest either way. |
|
hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,839
|
Post by hoyazeke on Jan 9, 2023 11:53:35 GMT -5
Some keep saying that it's statistically impossible to go winless in conference in back-to-back seasons. Well, there's statistics and real life. We are in real life and I think another winless conference season is a distinct possibility. Oh it's happening. If Ewing is our coach there is only the DePaul and Butler games that we could possibly win the way we are currently playing. Winning a game against BE competition will require a few players getting on a scorcher for the entirety of the game. I can't see that happening with the amount of fatigue the players experience with Ewing coaching. |
|
1427hoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 352
|
Post by 1427hoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:54:38 GMT -5
Do people really think that handing the keys of the basketball program of a predominantly white institution to a white coach would result in blowback? There's a ~100% chance it will result in some blow back from some percentage of the population. The only question is how loud that gets, and how much if any traction it gets in the mainstream. But you see that sort of criticism all the time on social media and even among a certain percentage of Hoyatalk posters (many of whom, thankfully, have moved on from posting here). There's a segment of the fan base that is loyal to Big John first, that became attached to the program in the "starter jacket" era, and felt a strong connection to the program JTII built. If JT2 had been a white coach with largely white or mixed race teams (think Coach K/Duke) and had equivalent on-court success in those years, that segment of the fan base never would have become fans. It was more about what he and the team stood for, and gave those fans a sense of connection/ownership. And there's a sense among some in that segment that the largely white fan base that ousted JT3 and is now trying to oust Patrick in order to install Rick Pitino, John Beilein or Chris Mack is doing so because they want to "take the program back".... In other words, they think that (largely white) fans are the racists who want the program back in the hands of "one of their own." To be clear I do not subscribe to this view, but this is the basic understanding I've developed from reading/hearing some that do. Then of course there is the Ronny wildcard. Remember how his exit at Ball St went? If we assume that he is also sent packing at season's end, is there some chance he falls back on that same playbook? You can't tell me that there aren't a lot of media outlets who wouldn't love to run a story about JT2's son criticizing DeGioia or the Georgetown community as being racist. Those kinds of stories always get clicks, especially when it's a Thompson talking about Georgetown. And I'm sure that over 40 years or so, Ronny and the inner circle HAVE actually heard or seen some racist stuff from members of the community, maybe even from people of prominence, at least enough for some reporter or columnist with an axe to grind (or just fishing for clicks) to spin up a story. I am not making any judgments about the community, but it just seems statistically probable that with this many people over that many years, Ronny has seen or knows about some racist stuff that happened to him, his brother, his father or Patrick from within the Georgetown community. So yes, I think it will come up. And I think someone like DeGioia is probably petrified of that kind of thing especially at this phase of his career. If he hires a Pitino or some other white coach, he leaves himself open to that criticism. If he instead hires James Jones, some of the criticism from the Team Thompson loyalists may still come, but he can make the very obvious "We can't be THAT racist if the new coach is also black" rebuttal, and it probably never goes anywhere. And I think that will be appealing to JD as he tries to make this hire. Like you, I just want the best coach - regardless of race. If he's a white guy or a black guy or a Hispanic guy - I don't care at all. What matters to me is that he runs an ethical program, plays within the new rules, and gets us back into being a top national program. Regarding the fanbase that really only wants a black coach, what can you say? People can like a program for whatever reasons they choose. But look around - Georgetown doesn't have a lot of fans anymore anyway. The arena gets about 2000 people a game. Maybe some of these fans are just sitting on the sidelines (like me) and will come back when things are better. But people who want a "family" coach have one, so they're less likely sitting on the sidelines. So how many of these people are we talking about? My guess is that it is very, very few. Whatever Ronny says out the door won't get a lot of traction. If the team goes 0-40 over two BE seasons, it looks more and more like sour grapes - even among those who want to cover it like it is true. |
|
|
|
Post by augustusfinknottle on Jan 9, 2023 11:55:09 GMT -5
So a school that has had Black coaches for 45 of the last 50 years would be susceptible to (or concerned about) charges of racism because they made a judgment that the best person to be the next head coach was not Black? Preposterous.
|
|
|
|
Post by happyhoya1979 on Jan 9, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -5
Our situation has deteriorated to the point that we have to make a huge, big, bold step to fix things. I am reminded of the world of politics last year when a certain world leader had blundered in Afghanistan, was seeing all his diplomatic initiatives and alliance meetings ignored by an adversary who invaded a country to spite that world leader's best efforts and warnings. Gas prices rose to over $5 per gallon and it looked like this leader's economy was going into a deep recession and that his political party was down for the count in the coming midterms. What did that world leader do-he made an unprecedented, almost reckless decision to drain the already 20% below capacity Strategic Petroleum Reserve down to half its capacity with action to sell over 1 milllion barrels a day (5% of domestic daily usage or thereabouts) of oil until the midterms. We all know the results $3.50 a gallon and an improbable Democrat Senate. Going Big and outside the box worked for that world leader. I disagree with him politically but for sheer political skill and daring you have to tip your hat to him.
My solution for Georgetown: an NBA coach. Get the best one we can for up to $10 million a year and get out of this mess. I am not an expert on the NBA but what about a Doc Rivers or a Steve Nash? This experiment would certainly fill the Capital One arena while it takes place, put Georgetown on the front page in a big way and have the nation saying Wow!
When you are this far down, you have to go big and bold.
And announce it now-let the entire transfer portal know that come next season, Georgetown is out to win it all and that we want future NBA stars on the roster.
|
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2023 12:07:12 GMT -5
Whatever Ronny says out the door won't get a lot of traction. If the team goes 0-40 over two BE seasons, it looks more and more like sour grapes - even among those who want to cover it like it is true. Exactly. I do not mean to demean the guy, but it is important to remember that as far as college basketball goes, Ronny Thompson is essentially nothing. He played for his father at Georgetown. He was an abysmal coach at Ball State, lasted one season, and never was hired again in a coaching role. He was not a good college player, he was not a good coach. The best thing he's probably done is his TV commentary, which I actually thought was useful when he did Big East games in the JT3 era. Point being, other than being a Thompson son, Ronny is really irrelevant. Ronny has the job and role he has because of his father. It's that simple. No other college program would hire him, nor should they, as he's simply unqualified. So, let Ronny whine and complain and file frivolous lawsuits. I don't think anybody will care, and certainly not if someone like Rick Pitino turns things around and wins. That's a much more interesting story than Ronny whining. I still think it's highly ironic that in firing JT3 (the better and more talented Thompson son) led to us rehiring the totally unqualified Thompson son. |
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,661
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 9, 2023 12:09:50 GMT -5
We should hire the best coach possible. Gutting a basketball office that’s gone 0-26 in conference play and counting will receive sympathy from no one.
|
|
RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,143
|
Post by RBHoya on Jan 9, 2023 12:16:48 GMT -5
I have thought way too much about this.. Deleting the rest of your commentary to avoid expanding the page, but a very well thought out post. At the moment I think Pitino and Cooley should be the Top 2, though I do not think our leadership will have the guts to pursue Pitino and I think Cooley will say no. Next for me is Chris Mack. This guy has already demonstrated that he can take a Big East team to the NCAA tournament year after year, and Georgetown should still have a few advantages over X. And he's attainable and affordable. Everybody lauded the hire of Willard across town, but go back 5 years ago and which of the two would you have taken? I think Mack with the right staff could be really formidable here, and the personality quirks and "fit" issues would be quickly forgotten once he came in and started winning games. Most of us rooted hard against Rick Pitino dressed as Colonel Sanders at UL also. It's different when he's your guy and winning. Mike Young and Mike Jones would be great and on the same tier as Mack, but not sure you can convince them to leave the ACC for here given where we stand at present. The last group, if all those fell through, would be guys like McCasland, James Jones, Pat Kelsey or Pitino Jr. Basically guys who appear to be very strong mid (or low) majors. You're rolling the dice that they are going to be able to translate their success to the Big East level, so none are sure things or close. But if you can't get someone with a proven high major track record, that's probably your best bet and is the route that a lot of high major programs go every year. Mike Jones is the "safety school" hire--you know he'd take it, so in the event we keep swinging and missing, we know he's the floor. Would be a huge gamble. I've been saying since last off-season that he should run his own program for a few years first. Doesn't seem to have gotten a look for the GW job last year, and now we're going to hire him at Georgetown? He has potential but it's too soon. And the more years he's away from the high school ranks, who knows how his recruiting ability might diminish. Most important though is that this has potential to change a lot in the coming months. We thought there might be a coaching change at this time last year and yet nobody was talking about Dennis Gates last January, though in retrospect he probably would have been a great hire. Nobody was talking about Shaheen Holloway jumping to the BE last January but by March it was obvious. Things will change in the coming months and our pecking order should too. Let's just make sure we clear the decks and are ready to strike come mid March, rather than just starting to search by then. |
|
hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,995
|
Post by hoyaguy on Jan 9, 2023 12:39:21 GMT -5
We should hire the best coach possible. Gutting a basketball office that’s gone 0-26 in conference play and counting will receive sympathy from no one. Yeah Ronny helped tank the program so bad that if he tried anything, I doubt anyone that wasn’t already Thompson-first would care. |
|
78HOYA78
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 432 
|
Post by 78HOYA78 on Jan 9, 2023 12:46:19 GMT -5
I like Coach Cooley but it seems weird to me a Big East coach to Coach another Big East team. I'm sure it has happened - just saying not knowing the BE coaching down through the years coaching within the conference.
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,415
Member is Online
|
Post by calhoya on Jan 9, 2023 12:47:09 GMT -5
While to my father the hiring of John Thompson was a very important step taken by a Catholic institution that had a primarily white student body, I do not think that he would feel the same today about the need to hire a black coach. Opportunities are much more available for young black basketball coaches now than was the case in 1972. I think it is critical to hire someone who can coach, regardless of race or ethnicity. Also think it is important to find someone who can relate to today's athlete and has a feel for marketing the program to the fans. Recruiting fans is important if this program is ever to enjoy success again.
|
|
|
|
Post by practice on Jan 9, 2023 12:47:52 GMT -5
Didn't Brandon Murray supposedly get an NIL deal in the ~ $300K ballpark to come to the Hilltop? It's completely BS that Georgetown cannot compete with at least other BE schools in NIL. These are peer institutions in terms of size of alumni/ae base. DeGioia is a complete fraud and talks out of every side of his mouth when it comes to the basketball program.
|
|
|
|
Post by practice on Jan 9, 2023 12:53:44 GMT -5
Ed Cooley is not coming to Georgetown, let's just be serious. I'd love Ed Cooley and think he'd be a better long-term guy than Pitino, but there's no way he'd entertain an offer.
In terms of an African American coach ... I thought it was critical after JT3 to keep that legacy alive. I thought the school should have taken a flyer on some young black coach -- HC or assistant -- and then give that guy 3 to 4 years to rebuild. Well, unfortunately, I think everyone can now agree that the damage done over the last five years changes the job description. In my humble opinion, we need to win immediately and significantly ... and that points to hiring a coach who has won at the highest levels immediately ... who would consider this job now ... and that leads me back to Pitino and maybe Mack. Sampson and Cooley are not leaving sure things to come to Georgetown. Most of the other names mentioned are all big gambles on potential or taking big professional step ups.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 19,532
|
Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 12:59:36 GMT -5
I like Coach Cooley but it seems weird to me a Big East coach to Coach another Big East team. I'm sure it has happened - just saying not knowing the BE coaching down through the years coaching within the conference. Much less leave his home state to do so. Where he is rightfully immensely popular. |
|
|
|
Post by trillesthoya on Jan 9, 2023 13:04:48 GMT -5
Ed Cooley is not coming to Georgetown, let's just be serious. I'd love Ed Cooley and think he'd be a better long-term guy than Pitino, but there's no way he'd entertain an offer. In terms of an African American coach ... I thought it was critical after JT3 to keep that legacy alive. I thought the school should have taken a flyer on some young black coach -- HC or assistant -- and then give that guy 3 to 4 years to rebuild. Well, unfortunately, I think everyone can now agree that the damage done over the last five years changes the job description. In my humble opinion, we need to win immediately and significantly ... and that points to hiring a coach who has won at the highest levels immediately ... who would consider this job now ... and that leads me back to Pitino and maybe Mack. Sampson and Cooley are not leaving sure things to come to Georgetown. Most of the other names mentioned are all big gambles on potential or taking big professional step ups. I know many people will not agree with this - but in the long run I firmly believe Georgetown basketball is too meaningful of an institution to the black community in America historically for our long term solution at head coach to not be black. The reason why I want Pitino is I know he is effectively a bridge QB for us (and a damn good one at that). He will get us back to national prominence immediately, and will inevitably retire in a few years which will put us in a good position to hand things off to someone to continue our legacy as Black America’s team. The problem with Pitino is he will inevitably leverage the job for his son, but that’s a battle I’m willing to punt on in the future. It’s also why Im infuriated they tried to make Ewing work for another year - if they had just hired Dennis Gates last spring we could’ve skipped this entire process. This issue is probably at the heart of this fan base and it begs the question of what Georgetown basketball really is. Does it have an identity beyond being the basketball program for Georgetown University? It does to me, and likely about half our fan base give or take. I know some folks (particularly alums) either never viewed it that way or no longer do so since its been quite some time since JT2 was on the sidelines fighting for these issues, but Georgetown basketball is to me way greater than just the students and alumni, and that’s not something we can ignore when thinking about long term vision. |
|
78HOYA78
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 432
|
Post by 78HOYA78 on Jan 9, 2023 13:15:16 GMT -5
For fun: Coach Gino (try the men's side) - Coach Staley (break the glass ceiling). I always wondered why Coach Summit or Coach Larry did not get a chance to coach men. If you are a good coach- you are a good coach.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,661
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 9, 2023 13:22:01 GMT -5
The role of the basketball program in the black community was due to JT2. If JT2 went 0-26 in conference, he wouldn’t have had an audience. The basketball program needs to win first, then it can create a platform for social good.
|
|
