hoyajmw
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Post by hoyajmw on Jan 9, 2023 8:21:34 GMT -5
At this point it looks like we’re just letting coach Ewing solidify his place as the worst coach in BE history and perhaps even the worst coach in a power conference in the modern era. Bad coaches going forward will be compared to Pat. It’s been difficult to watch this play out. I think one can safely take out the “perhaps even” and likely even limiters of “power conference in the modern era.” I just don’t think there’s anyone that makes it a close question, in terms of length of tenure, overall results, resources/expectations, and simple eye test… |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 8:22:17 GMT -5
Some keep saying that it's statistically impossible to go winless in conference in back-to-back seasons. Well, there's statistics and real life. We are in real life and I think another winless conference season is a distinct possibility.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jan 9, 2023 8:39:41 GMT -5
It really comes down to whether or not the administration wants to compete nationally in basketball like it has in the past or concede. This should be a perennial top 35 program in the country with most years in the top 25. If they do, then you're taking swings at the big names and starting with Pitino. If you end up with an assistant or Ivy HC then you know where they see Gtown's future, and it's not to be a top program. If that's the direction you go, you cut the amount of funding that basketball gets and we all come to terms with the mediocrity the program will be going forward. I don't think I'm being dramatic by saying this. We cannot afford to go with an unknown quantity on the big stage. Period. You have a layup available. You absolutely put out feelers to the biggest names out there as well. If they're willing to spend the type of money that they have, it will be inexcusable to come away with anything but a sure thing. We've all been beaten down over the past decade + and the program is at a major crossroads. Pretty terrified to see what direction we go to be honest.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 9, 2023 8:58:41 GMT -5
It really comes down to whether or not the administration wants to compete nationally in basketball like it has in the past or concede. This should be a perennial top 35 program in the country with most years in the top 25. If they do, then you're taking swings at the big names and starting with Pitino. If you end up with an assistant or Ivy HC then you know where they see Gtown's future, and it's not to be a top program. If that's the direction you go, you cut the amount of funding that basketball gets and we all come to terms with the mediocrity the program will be going forward. I don't think I'm being dramatic by saying this. We cannot afford to go with an unknown quantity on the big stage. Period. You have a layup available. You absolutely put out feelers to the biggest names out there as well. If they're willing to spend the type of money that they have, it will be inexcusable to come away with anything but a sure thing. We've all been beaten down over the past decade + and the program is at a major crossroads. Pretty terrified to see what direction we go to be honest. Why terrified? I say this with brutal honesty and no snark - any of those choices are a huge improvement over what we have now. James Jones would be a huge improvement. A really, really good assistant isn't what we need right now and it's a sign that we're not going to compete - but it would be a huge improvement over what we have now. The only choices that should terrify you are the Ewing / Nickelberry / Amaker / Broadus / Baldwin / Ronny continuation of the status quo. |
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hoyajmw
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Post by hoyajmw on Jan 9, 2023 9:03:18 GMT -5
Before you submit or read your next post, stop and read this from Casual Hoya. Then come back and be ready to think and discuss intelligently. This is no time for feelings overruling our thoughts and reason. Get serious -- or else how can we expect Jack DeGioia, theBoard, and the folks who have their ear to be serious in making this important decision? Very insightful, interesting — and ultimately depressing — analysis. I mean, we couldn’t have made a worse decision in 2017 if we were trying to make a bad decision. Many first guessed that decision for many different reasons — ALL of which turned out to be true and here we are…🤦🏻♂️ In contrast, an uplifting story about Ed Cooley (as if he needs more uplift): he attended the big opening dinner to commemorate the opening of the JTJr training center “to show my respect for Big John and all he meant to me, our school and our game” (or words to that effect, per a conversation that night). A real class act who will never in a gajillion years leave Providence to come here — and he shouldn’t…. |
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 9, 2023 9:17:11 GMT -5
We need to be careful, most any new hire would be an improvement. Our goal is to fight for conference supremacy and vie for deep NCAA runs. We need to hit a home run with our next hire. I’m not going to be excited to move up to the middle of the BE pack and make the tournament every now and then. With that ceiling we will continue to play in an empty arena.
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Post by practice on Jan 9, 2023 9:30:16 GMT -5
Just beating the drum at this point : #1 Pitino #2 Pitino #3 Pitino, #4 Pitino #5 Pitino #6 Pitino #7 Pitino #8 Pitino #9 Pitino #10 Pitino #11 Chris Mack #12 Chris Mack # 13 Richard Pitino # 14 any other HC with a winning record currently at a Power 6 team # 15 any assistant w/DMV ties and significant experience (who also haven't failed before -- see K. Nickelberry) #16 up and coming HCs from the mid-majors. #17 tried and true but past over HCs in the mid-majors
That's a field of about 500 individuals. Frankly, as long as someone closely associated with the program is not named and as long as there is a legitimate cleaning of the house, i.e. all current staff gone and no new ties to R. Thompson or D. Falk, I'm fine with whatever. Ideally we try to do the 180 -- which is Pitino or maybe Mack and win NOW -- but any real change is welcome. At this point, unless it is clear that the interim will NOT be considered for the permanent position, I'm hoping that there's an announcement sooner rather than later that this will be Pat's last season but he will leave at the end of the season. I live in fear of Baldwin or Nickelberry (or Thompson) coaching this roster to a .400 or .500 record over the last few games and being named HC.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 9, 2023 9:52:23 GMT -5
Just hire Pitino; this truly is not rocket science. And if and when Pitino says “no thanks”? Very doubtful that he'd say that, given the relationships he has with Georgetown and where he is in his career. This is a no-brainer of epic proportions, both sides need each other and it's a perfect fit. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 9:56:52 GMT -5
And if and when Pitino says “no thanks”? Very doubtful that he'd say that, given the relationships he has with Georgetown and where he is in his career. This is a no-brainer of epic proportions, both sides need each other and it's a perfect fit. I'd also venture to guess that's there's no way Jack D and the Board offer it to him. |
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Post by practice on Jan 9, 2023 10:20:07 GMT -5
Very doubtful that he'd say that, given the relationships he has with Georgetown and where he is in his career. This is a no-brainer of epic proportions, both sides need each other and it's a perfect fit. I'd also venture to guess that's there's no way Jack D and the Board offer it to him. Concur that Pitino would accept in a heartbeat -- unless something better comes along -- and that Jack D is likely incapable of making a modestly bold move. It's pure insanity that Georgetown would fail to make Rick Pitino -- who currently coaches at a CATHOLIC mid-major and is a HOF coach who is still throwing a 95 mph fastball -- an offer. He'll end up somewhere -- likely next season or the following season -- and he'll be great. This will be incompetence on the scale of the Ewing 3 year $12 million secret extension should DeGioia fail to act. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 9, 2023 10:20:10 GMT -5
Very doubtful that he'd say that, given the relationships he has with Georgetown and where he is in his career. This is a no-brainer of epic proportions, both sides need each other and it's a perfect fit. I'd also venture to guess that's there's no way Jack D and the Board offer it to him. Why so negative, SS? Imagine yourself driving down from Delaware all happy because we have a shot at winning the BE regular season title or seeing good OOC opponents (not the ranked 200+ that still outcoach Pat), and then driving back home with a smile on your face? |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Jan 9, 2023 10:22:36 GMT -5
I have thought way too much about this..
The obvious: Rick Pitino
Make him say no: Ed Cooley
Could use each other but this is probably too weird: Chris Mack
The buyout is a non-starter: Dennis Gates, Steve Forbes, Steve Pikiell, Mike Boynton
Makes sense: Mike Young & Mikes Jones together
Okay fit, very very questionable coaching credentials: Bobby Hurley, Mike Rhoades, Richard Pitino
Bland but a fit - with varying degrees of success: Ryan Odom, James Jones, Matt Langel, John Beckner, Mark Schmidt, Anthony Grant
Falk'd: Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker
Better off retired: Mike Brey
Likely very good but too odd of a fit: Pat Kelsey, Grant McCasland, Darian DeVries, Bob Richey, Griff Aldrich
So weird it might work: Randy Bennett
Could talk me into it: Ron Hunter
Let's see in 5 years: Kim English*, Takayo Siddle, Mark Byington, Chris Markwood, Mike Jones, Chris Caputo, Tony Skinn, Nolan Smith, Darris Nichols, Jordan Mincy, Charlton Young, Kimani Young
Where I land:
It starts and ends with Pitino. If there are options 1-1,000 - it's all Pitino and you go from there. Forget competing in the Big East - You can win a national title with Rick Pitino by year three. No other candidate can sniff that. And people can debate this and reject the notion but I believe it - he also fits the program. He gets the job, he gets the legacies, he gets the Big East, he gets the University.
Cooley - a no brainer. Personality, culture he'd build, the whole thing would be a grand slam. PC and Georgetown still are not equals, he could accomplish more here. If someone wanted to argue they'd want 10-15 years out of Cooley than 4-5 out of Pitino, I don't think I'd say you're wrong. However I think he's caught his second wind at PC and the success they've had makes this a no from him, maybe rather quickly at this rate.
Mike Young and Mike Jones. Does Mike Young want to leave rural VA and move up to the big city? Maybe not, not sure he's wired that way but he's already understood the importance of recruiting the DMV and he'd have to know Jones would be even more valuable of an asset at Georgetown and perhaps a head coach in waiting. He'd get a pay increase and would move into one of the best jobs in a big conference instead of a middling VT job. His coaching credentials are not up for debate. And he is an A+ human.
Randy Bennett. I've thought about this one a lot considering his name surfaced in the '17 search (I'm still not sure why - agent playing games?) - but this guy could tap into an international recruiting pipeline that nobody has done on the East Coast and there's no better University to do it at than Georgetown. Is the style of play (slow) a concern? Probably, local powerbrokers likely laugh at him too - but his results are beyond reproach. He's only 60 so there is gas left in the tank - he's flirted with UNLV two years ago, Cal before that, but has never jumped. Is this the time? He's working on having back-to-back seasons in the Top 20 at Saint Mary's (they're 9th in KenPom!). A blackmark on his resume is the recruiting violations St. Mary's got hit with under his watch. He's also incredibly boring. But his coaching acumen is so high that it's a tradeoff you might live with.
James Jones. He's by some accounts been itching to test himself at a higher level. He adapts to personnel year after year and just wins. He was able to up Yale recruiting efforts a bit when Harvard loosened things, which gives me some hope he can adapt to this level and hire the right people. Ivy League guy, he fits what Georgetown would be happy with. I would not be thrilled with this but I do find it sensical and will bring you back to respectability if it's the case. To lump him in with Amaker is lazy and dumb. He is a very sharp basketball coach. Listen to his post-game presser and how he viewed the game after facing Kentucky a few weeks ago on youtube and contrast that to what we've been listening to the last six years.
Mark Schmidt. Short of La Salle and Fordham, St. Bonaventure is the most difficult place to win at in the A10. He's had a pretty remarkable run at a place that is extremely difficult to recruit to. He finds diamonds in the rough time and time again (a couple locally over the years, including their current FR small forward from Baltimore) and their track record of player development is exceptional, as is his on the court X and O's. Does he fit Georgetown? I say yes. Good dude, does it the right way. Again, respectable hire that lands you on solid ground. His name was linked with BC for what felt like every season for the last decade (as well as the Pitt job), so it's not like he hasn't been viewed as a possible HM coach.
*One guy who hits almost all the checkpoints is Ron Hunter, except I am hesitant to believe he could field reasonable enough defensive units at this level with how he coaches on that end of the floor (gimmicky zone). But has built IUPUI (while making a transition to D1), built Georgia State, building up Tulane now. Personality as big as anyone's, committed to fan outreach. Appealing style of play on offense. Easy guy to root for.
*Kim English - pending. For the we need a young guy with a fresh start crowd - why do we choose to overlook the A10 coach in the backyard and instead focusing on the guy who's been on a D1 bench as an assistant for a whole year and a half? English is younger, more personable than Mike Jones. I am very skeptical about his coaching - and would have to show well the next two months - and you would have to growth with him - but as far as his personality, accessibility - he'd be a shot in the arm for this program. If there is any other younger candidate I'd throw in here it would be Siddle. But to even get in the convo, the next two months would be pivotal for them.
I am open to Mike Jones - if anyone can tell me why beyond the fact he's a DMV guy. And I've yet to hear it. Local recruiting with the portal matters less and less. And the kids you get to stay locally - it better work out, because nobody shuts of access to them like the DC powerbrokers if things don't work. But, I am still waiting for someone to tell me what he'd do offensively, defensively, how he'd sell and market a program - until then, you're just guessing. And we can't afford to guess. Great run at DeMathan and coached Team USA - that's awesome. Were the 2017 Warriors not available for him?
order of preference: Pitino, Cooley, Young -- Jones, Bennett, Schmidt, Hunter
Tried to narrow it to guys would actually take the job/would actually get hired, fit the culture, guys that I do not have to for a second wonder if they can X and O. And maybe most importantly they have built a program on their own (unlike guys like Rhoades, Valentine) who took over ready-made programs. For the 'safe' grouping of Schmidt/Jones, I need someone with an ounce of personality (Anthony Grant, John Becker, Johnny Dawkins make JTIII look like the most charasmatic guy in the world - given the program's ongoing issues of transparency, fan outreach, reaching out to alums/ex-players - I don't think it's an attribute to just throw aside. There needs to be an outreach to this fanbase - Schmidt over time has created a fiercely loyal fanbase and a great home court advantage. James Jones is media friendly and more charismatic than he'd get credit for, but obviously at a spot where attention on his program is non-existent). Finding a good coach is going to be hard, finding the right one for Georgetown makes it even harder.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 10:42:58 GMT -5
I'd also venture to guess that's there's no way Jack D and the Board offer it to him. Why so negative, SS? Imagine yourself driving down from Delaware all happy because we have a shot at winning the BE regular season title or seeing good OOC opponents (not the ranked 200+ that still outcoach Pat), and then driving back home with a smile on your face? Because as long as Jack and the current Board are in charge, I fear they do not have the cojones to hire Pitino. Such a hire does not square with their vision and image of Georgetown. I hazard to speculate the Yale coach seems more their type. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2023 10:51:32 GMT -5
Very doubtful that he'd say that, given the relationships he has with Georgetown and where he is in his career. This is a no-brainer of epic proportions, both sides need each other and it's a perfect fit. I'd also venture to guess that's there's no way Jack D and the Board offer it to him. I do not think Jack DeGioia on his own would hire Pitino, so I think it would require influence from the Board, donors, alumni, etc. The fact is that if you do a true national search, the top name that should come up is Pitino. Georgetown will likely never have an opportunity to hire a Hall of Fame coach--with a real chance of getting us a championship--again, and so they need to take the opportunity now that it exists. And while Pitino isn't young, a 5-7 year run from Pitino would so drastically transform the program in a positive way that it would position us extremely well for the future. And the timing is perfect because Pitino has all but acknowledged he would leave for a better opportunity in both his statements about Iona not extending him and Iona being in a one-bid league. As others have said, at this particular time, we are a great fit for Pitino and he is a great fit for us. It would allow him back into a major conference, he could coach at a program with an immense amount of history that he clearly appreciates, he could cement his legacy by turning around a once-great program that is struggling, and give him a last chance at a championship. He could really cap off his career nicely, while also positioning our program for success in the future (which is badly needed). Frankly, in any normal university or program this would be so obviously the choice that there'd be little debate about it. Taken differently, how would Pitino impact Georgetown from the fan perspective? 1. Very good likelihood that within 2-3 years (maybe sooner) we are in the NCAA tournament. 2. Very good likelihood that in 2-3 years we are a top 25 program, maybe sooner. 3. Very good likelihood we are a top 10 program and make the Sweet 16+ by years 4-5 (if not sooner) for the first time since 2007. 4. Very good likelihood we finally play some 10,000+ attendance games at home. 5. Very good likelihood Pitino brings in top recruits, creating an exciting brand of basketball. 6. A lot of national attention/excitement/interest from the media and alumni. 7. Winning!!!! |
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 9, 2023 10:57:20 GMT -5
Because as long as Jack and the current Board are in charge, I fear they do not have the cojones to hire Pitino. Such a hire does not square with their vision and image of Georgetown. I hazard to speculate rhe Yale coach seems more their type. It's hard to tell what DeGioia's vision or image of Georgetown Basketball is because : - he has not laid out a vision in the last 6 years, nor given any public comment - how the program has been run the last 6 years (graduation, APR, run-off, pre-2022 recruitment, disciplinary issues) doesn't square whatsoever with the perception of what people think their vision is (highly respected super non-rule breaking) - and they signed the extension despite that - how the program has been run the last year has been in absolute opposition with the perception of "the vision", and they signed off on all of that in an attempt to make the extension work I honestly don't think Jack cares what we do as long as he doesn't get implicated / get his hands dirty / doesn't have to give a public comment. Winning with Pitino would be a lot less inconvenient. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:03:59 GMT -5
Because as long as Jack and the current Board are in charge, I fear they do not have the cojones to hire Pitino. Such a hire does not square with their vision and image of Georgetown. I hazard to speculate rhe Yale coach seems more their type. It's hard to tell what DeGioia's vision of image of Georgetown Basketball is because : - he has not laid out a vision in the last 6 years, nor given any public comment - how the program has been the last 6 years doesn't square whatsoever with the perception of what people think their vision is (highly respected super non-rule breaking) - and they signed the extension despite that - how the program has been run the last year has been in absolute opposition with the perception of "the vision", and they signed off on all of that in an attempt to make the extension work. I honestly don't think Jack cares what we do as long as he doesn't get implicated / get his hands dirty / doesn't have to give a public comment. Winning would be a lot less inconvenient. To me, his London comments indicate that he is preparing to raise the white flag because he doesn't believe that Georgetown should even attempt to compete in the new landscape of college basketball and NIL. He, of all people, should have been prepared for that change due to his time at the NCAA. I wrote "their vision and image of Georgetown" not specifically that of the basketball program. Thus, a guy like Jones from Yale would fit their image of Georgetown as an "Ivy" type university. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2023 11:07:08 GMT -5
It's hard to tell what DeGioia's vision of image of Georgetown Basketball is because : - he has not laid out a vision in the last 6 years, nor given any public comment - how the program has been the last 6 years doesn't square whatsoever with the perception of what people think their vision is (highly respected super non-rule breaking) - and they signed the extension despite that - how the program has been run the last year has been in absolute opposition with the perception of "the vision", and they signed off on all of that in an attempt to make the extension work. I honestly don't think Jack cares what we do as long as he doesn't get implicated / get his hands dirty / doesn't have to give a public comment. Winning would be a lot less inconvenient. To me, his London comments indicate that he is preparing to raise the white flag because he doesn't believe that Georgetown should even attempt to compete in the new landscape of college basketball and NIL. He, of all people, should have been of Georgetown as an "Ivy" type university. I agree that DeGioia's London comments were discouraging, but I would argue that at least for now, Georgetown could easily be competitive even taking a cautious approach to NIL (and from what others have said, there IS NIL money in the program already). There is not a binary choice of (1) doing what other schools do on NIL and (2) being non-competitive. There is a middle ground and one we can fill, even if we aren't aggressive with NIL. We just cannot get there with Ewing. We are just at the point of being so bad that NIL doesn't matter. The bigger question, does Jack DeGioia know that? Addendum: I would just add that in 2021 when DeGioia gave Ewing a 3 year, $12 million extension, he was well aware of the NIL situation. If he was going to waive the white flag, then why spend such a high sum on Ewing? Oh, I forgot. I guess it's because he "deserves our support" and if anybody can do it, it's Pat. Got it. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:14:31 GMT -5
To me, his London comments indicate that he is preparing to raise the white flag because he doesn't believe that Georgetown should even attempt to compete in the new landscape of college basketball and NIL. He, of all people, should have been of Georgetown as an "Ivy" type university. I agree that DeGioia's London comments were discouraging, but I would argue that at least for now, Georgetown could easily be competitive even taking a cautious approach to NIL (and from what others have said, there IS NIL money in the program already). There is not a binary choice of (1) doing what other schools do on NIL and (2) being non-competitive. There is a middle ground and one we can fill, even if we aren't aggressive with NIL. We just cannot get there with Ewing. We are just at the point of being so bad that NIL doesn't matter. The bigger question, does Jack DeGioia know that? Addendum: I would just add that in 2021 when DeGioia gave Ewing a 3 year, $12 million extension, he was well aware of the NIL situation. If he was going to waive the white flag, then why spend such a high sum on Ewing? Oh, I forgot. I guess it's because he "deserves our support" and if anybody can do it, it's Pat. Got it. I had previously posted (semi-seriously) that the contract extension is akin to a deferred NIL deal/golden parachute for Ewing who's been Jack's buddy since Ewing was 18-years old. Ewing put Georgetown on the map nationally (no disrespect to that 1980 team that made the Regional Finals in Philly) at a time when athletes could not benefit despite the economic and marketing advantages it brought to their schools. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 9, 2023 11:18:41 GMT -5
I had previously posted (semi-seriously) that the contract extension is akin to a deferred NIL deal/golden parachute for Ewing who's been Jack's buddy since Ewing was 18-years old. Ewing put Georgetown on the map nationally (no disrespect to that 1980 team that made the Regional Finals in Philly) at a time when athletes could not benefit despite the economic and marketing advantages it brought to their schools. Yes, it’s always fun (and expensive) when Jack, Pat, the Thompsons and Falk get together to play with other people’s money. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 9, 2023 11:18:49 GMT -5
To me, his London comments indicate that he is preparing to raise the white flag because he doesn't believe that Georgetown should even attempt to compete in the new landscape of college basketball and NIL. He, of all people, should have been prepared for that change due to his time at the NCAA. I wrote "their vision and image of Georgetown" not specifically that of the basketball program. Thus, a guy like Jones from Yale would fit their image of Georgetown as an "Ivy" type university. I want to push back on that because.... - where did he talk in the London comments about academics, or graduation, or APR? Nowhere. - where did he say Georgetown wouldn't do NIL? His statements were more towards (a) they didn't have any real NIL setup and won't till this half of 2023 and (b) the NCAA is in danger of losing safe harbor on antitrust, and all that is sort of a smokescreen - if you don't have those deals setup, how are you successfully recruiting 4* and 5* and top transfers currently? - the Ivy League has NIL too Georgetown will do NIL because they will have to. I go to any of the other Big East programs - I can buy a Jared Bynum autograph by clicking through their roster (https://friars.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster?path=mbball -> "Jared Bynum Marketplace"). If I want a Ryan Nembhard cameo? Click through his page on the Creighton roster : gocreighton.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/ryan-nembhard/7461 -> Deals (opendorse) Those are the schools we are closely related to - not the Ivies. |
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