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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 28, 2022 15:04:18 GMT -5
I have no idea who any of the suggested coaches are with the exception of Pitino. But why aren't we looking at what worked at the most successful program in the history of the Big East? Jay Wright was a Pennsylvania/Philly kid who understood not just how to coach but how to build a program. He was invested in the Philly basketball scene and brought his energy and commitment to the entire Nova community. Rather than look all over the country for a coach why not stay local (like we did with JT2) and get a guy (not older than 40) who grew up in the DMV, who has documented coaching cred, and who is HUNGRY. Leave it up to those on this Board with more knowledge than I of the local basketball scene to come up with some names. I'm not sure what you're recommending. Wright had been a head coach for six or seven years with an almost unimpeachable track record of improvement year over year. He was one of the absolute hottest coaching commodities the year he was hired. So, to get the equivalent, you'd need someone with close to that level of success at a mid major consistently, and with deep DC ties. That's.......a tall order. Or are you suggesting a young top HS coach (like we had with JT Jr)? That's an incredible risk. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 28, 2022 15:08:32 GMT -5
I have no idea if the school will be looking for a new coach next year or not, but if they are going to look, they need to swing for the fences and at least check in with the really big names that have proven they can succeed at a high level. Put a call into Oates at Alabama, Few at Gonzaga, Drew at Baylor and Sampson at Houston. I doubt that these guys would be interested, but you never know until you ask. I am sure there are others guys who fit this bill as well, but those guys came to mind instantly. If they do hire a new guy they can''t settle for someone they "hope" knows how to run a big time program. They need to bring someone in that has shown they can get it done. I agree with this, but only up to a certain point. I think you get one, MAYBE 2 of these. Beyond that, your coaching search becomes a farce and you end up devaluing the job. There are so many coaches eager to use our (or any major) opening as leverage to get a better deal with their current employer or signal to their current fan base that they are in demand--remember when we supposedly offered Chris Mack $4mm/year before we got Ewing? So it's difficult enough as it is to manage the PR of this kind of thing. I think you can ask one high level candidate and be publicly rebuffed and it's no big deal. You can MAYBE ask a second high level candidate and be turned down and still recover. But if your 3rd choice says no, it's a bad look and starts to teeter on laughingstock territory. And while some people might shrug off the egg on our faces, in college basketball perception is pretty important when it comes to recruiting players, coaches, NIL sponsors, etc. So I think it's OK to swing for the fences on your first offer (which btw is easier if you're not still paying the previous coach millions and millions of dollars) and maybe even your second, but your third offer needs to be someone you're pretty certain is going to accept. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 28, 2022 15:24:22 GMT -5
I have no idea who any of the suggested coaches are with the exception of Pitino. But why aren't we looking at what worked at the most successful program in the history of the Big East? Jay Wright was a Pennsylvania/Philly kid who understood not just how to coach but how to build a program. He was invested in the Philly basketball scene and brought his energy and commitment to the entire Nova community. Rather than look all over the country for a coach why not stay local (like we did with JT2) and get a guy (not older than 40) who grew up in the DMV, who has documented coaching cred, and who is HUNGRY. Leave it up to those on this Board with more knowledge than I of the local basketball scene to come up with some names. Well, you're open about the fact that you're not familiar with the potential candidates so I will tell you this: There is no candidate that matches the criteria you've laid out. There are young guys from the area who are hungry and can hustle (English, Nolan Smith maybe) but their actual coaching track records are sparse at best. If there was a young guy (no older than 40) with "documented coaching cred" who was from the area, I think it's safe to say that we'd all be on-board for that candidate. But he doesn't exist, so some trade-offs need to be made. Out of: -Young -Strong Coaching Cred -Local ties You probably can't have all 3. You're probably lucky if you get two. |
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Nov 28, 2022 15:37:23 GMT -5
I apologize in advance as I haven't kept up with it as closely the last few years and I'm unable to attend games in person to witness. But what is Ronny Thompson's official role with the team and program? What does he do off the court and during the games? He seems to be catching a lot of ire from the chat board, and just wondering about his responsibilities and, hence, accountability with where the program sits today. Thanks in advance. RD
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Nov 28, 2022 15:44:10 GMT -5
I apologize in advance as I haven't kept up with it as closely the last few years and I'm unable to attend games in person to witness. But what is Ronnie Thompson's official role with the team and program? What does he do off the court and during the games? He seems to be catching a lot of ire from the chat board, and just wondering about his responsibilities and, hence, accountability with where the program sits today. Thanks in advance. RD |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 28, 2022 15:57:08 GMT -5
I have no idea who any of the suggested coaches are with the exception of Pitino. But why aren't we looking at what worked at the most successful program in the history of the Big East? Jay Wright was a Pennsylvania/Philly kid who understood not just how to coach but how to build a program. He was invested in the Philly basketball scene and brought his energy and commitment to the entire Nova community. Rather than look all over the country for a coach why not stay local (like we did with JT2) and get a guy (not older than 40) who grew up in the DMV, who has documented coaching cred, and who is HUNGRY. Leave it up to those on this Board with more knowledge than I of the local basketball scene to come up with some names. Jay Wright was an extremely successful coach at Hofstra before moving to Villanova. I agree someone like that, but from the DC area with strong DC roots would be great. But, I'm not sure that such a person--with proven college experience, and successful experience--exists. But, admittedly, I do not know the lower conference coaches well and open to suggestions. I am just not aware of such a person, but I know I would not be willing to hire anybody who hasn't already coached at the college level. While it worked out when Georgetown hired John Thompson, in basketball terms, that's ancient history. Programs that want to win do not do that anymore. We all need to get comfortable with the fact that no perfect candidate exists. So, anybody that takes the job would have some downside. Nobody is going to tick all the boxes. Even Pitino who ticks all the coaching boxes has downsides in his past (which some people find disqualifying, though I do not), Mack the same. And the younger up and comer types that are excellent (like Wright was) get snapped up really quickly. You basically have to get lucky on timing with those guys. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 28, 2022 16:05:35 GMT -5
I have no idea who any of the suggested coaches are with the exception of Pitino. But why aren't we looking at what worked at the most successful program in the history of the Big East? Jay Wright was a Pennsylvania/Philly kid who understood not just how to coach but how to build a program. He was invested in the Philly basketball scene and brought his energy and commitment to the entire Nova community. Rather than look all over the country for a coach why not stay local (like we did with JT2) and get a guy (not older than 40) who grew up in the DMV, who has documented coaching cred, and who is HUNGRY. Leave it up to those on this Board with more knowledge than I of the local basketball scene to come up with some names. Jay Wright was an extremely successful coach at Hofstra before moving to Villanova. I agree someone like that, but from the DC area with strong DC roots would be great. But, I'm not sure that such a person--with proven college experience, and successful experience--exists. But, admittedly, I do not know the lower conference coaches well and open to suggestions. I am just not aware of such a person, but I know I would not be willing to hire anybody who hasn't already coached at the college level. While it worked out when Georgetown hired John Thompson, in basketball terms, that's ancient history. Programs that want to win do not do that anymore. We all need to get comfortable with the fact that no perfect candidate exists. So, anybody that takes the job would have some downside. Nobody is going to tick all the boxes. Even Pitino who ticks all the coaching boxes has downsides in his past (which some people find disqualifying, though I do not), Mack the same. And the younger up and comer types that are excellent (like Wright was) get snapped up really quickly. You basically have to get lucky on timing with those guys. Mike Jones is the Associate Head Coach at Virginia Tech after spending 19 years at DeMatha having succeeded HOFer Morgan Wooten. He doesn't check all the boxes as he has not been a collegiate head coach but may be worth a look. hokiesports.com/staff-directory/mike-jones/3510 |
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bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Nov 28, 2022 16:12:30 GMT -5
Re-posting this from thread under Recruiting that is now gone. Apologies for the repeat, but it follows 2003's point about Pitino and addresses some people's hesitancy in such a candidate.
Yeah, there is an initial negative gut reaction to hiring someone like Pitino given the skeezy things he's done. On one hand, I do think he could and would turn this ship around in all good ways. But first, I have to self-examine to be sure my fervent hope for a new and better Hoyas MBB program is not clouding my ethical compass.
So, I am a lapsed Catholic. 16 years of nuns and Jesuits (the last 4 of those years on the Hilltop). Big Irish Catholic family, altar boy, etc., etc. No need to get into details, but if you have been paying attention for the last 20-25 years, you have witnessed and seen the corruption and depravity and probably could guess why I chose to leave. Suffice it to say, though, that I have continued to believe in redemption, or what prhoya calls "second chances". Like almost everyone in life, I've had lots of screwups and have been lucky to have the support structure and foundation in my life and family to keep me moving forward. We have all taken some lumps on bad decisions, close calls, screwups, accidents and the like. If it weren't for getting handed those second chances, I wouldn't have been able to get through all that and be where I am now. If this were Pitino from 10 years ago, I wouldn't think twice about saying "no way". Since he has arrived at Iona, he has done little more than elevate that program in short order and demonstrate (again) that he is a master basketball coach while the eyes of the NCAA have been all over his every move. I have to think that his every step is being scrutinized -- there has been no news about anything amiss that I have heard with his tenure at Iona. So, the questions to me are "has he done his penance? has he made up for what he did? Has he redeemed himself?"
pr is right -- Catholics believe in second chances. I am lucky that I am not today judged by all my screwups committed from my youth up to 10 years ago -- it's only a small part of who I am now. At what point do we allow someone like Pitino to do the same? In fact, I like the hiring even more because of the mercy and compassion it would require from Georgetown, the premier Catholic university in the country, rooted in a tradition of reflection (know thyself) and redemption. School gets to reaffirm its values and we get a coach in the twilight of his career, who everyone seems to think would love to coach here, whose son went here and so he knows the place, and make his last crowning achievement be rebuilding this storied program. I doubt the present administration has the guts or boldness to make such a move, but I think it makes a lot of sense and would accomplish real change quickly -- and show what redemption and second chances are all about.
To double down on 2003's point -- there is no one perfect coaching candidate. In that case preferences will come down to what we value most. Let's se what the powers that be value as they approach this situation.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 28, 2022 16:30:14 GMT -5
Mike Jones is the Associate Head Coach at Virginia Tech after spending 20 years at DeMatha having succeeded HOFer Morgan Wooten. He doesn't check all the boxes as he has not been a collegiate head coach but may be worth a look. hokiesports.com/staff-directory/mike-jones/3510It's a huge risk because he has never run a college program and we have no idea whether he'd do a good job. After the experience of the last 5.5 years, there's a strong case that we want somebody who doesn't just understand basketball but all that goes into running a college basketball "program." Also Jones can't really check the box for "young"--he's roughly 50ish, which isn't ancient by any means and he'd still have many good years of coaching in front of him, but he doesn't fit the young up-and-comer paradigm exactly. That said if the priority is on "local ties", he may be the guy. He recruited more high major caliber players to DeMatha than our current staff has recruited to Georgetown--you know, an actual high major. If you don't believe me, line up some of Jones's DeMatha guys (Jahmir Young, Dickinson, Justin Moore, Jordan Hawkins) against this year or last year's Hoya teams and tell me which one you're picking. In a perfect world a guy like Jones goes from being associate head coach at Tech to head coach at a low or mid major in the DMV, where he elevates them and proves he can build his own college program, and then we snap him up from there. However, we live in an imperfect world and don't have time for all that to unfold. We will have to either gamble that he's learned enough between DeMatha and being an Associate Head Coach to run a college program on his own, or go in another direction for somebody with less local ties but a stronger overall resume. As bad as things are right now, the idea of turning over the program to somebody who is almost completely unproven at the collegiate level is extra scary. Our next coach HAS TO be a winner, or the program may never bounce back. But as risky as it is, Jones has to at least be on the list. High ceiling/low floor relative to some of the other candidates. Edited to Add: Another near-ideal scenario would be that we hire a more proven head coach (someone more along the lines of Pitino or Mack) and offer Jones a raise to be the Associate Head Coach at Georgetown rather than at Tech. Have to think he'd be happy to move his family back to DC from Blacksburg if we could give him even a modest raise. That way we get the benefits of Jones' local ties without the risk of turning the program over to somebody who hasn't run a college program before. But, this would likely be pretty expensive (tough when we're in to Ewing for so many millions) and no guarantee he'd go for it. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 28, 2022 16:37:15 GMT -5
Mike Jones is the Associate Head Coach at Virginia Tech after spending 20 years at DeMatha having succeeded HOFer Morgan Wooten. He doesn't check all the boxes as he has not been a collegiate head coach but may be worth a look. hokiesports.com/staff-directory/mike-jones/3510It's a huge risk because he has never run a college program and we have no idea whether he'd do a good job. After the experience of the last 5.5 years, there's a strong case that we want somebody who doesn't just understand basketball but all that goes into running a college basketball "program." Also Jones can't really check the box for "young"--he's roughly 50ish, which isn't ancient by any means and he'd still have many good years of coaching in front of him, but he doesn't fit the young up-and-comer paradigm exactly. That said if the priority is on "local ties", he may be the guy. He recruited more high major caliber players to DeMatha than our current staff has recruited to Georgetown--you know, an actual high major. If you don't believe me, line up some of Jones's DeMatha guys (Jahmir Young, Dickinson, Justin Moore, Jordan Hawkins) against this year or last year's Hoya teams and tell me which one you're picking. In a perfect world a guy like Jones goes from being associate head coach at Tech to head coach at a low or mid major in the DMV, where he elevates them and proves he can build his own college program, and then we snap him up from there. However, we live in an imperfect world and don't have time for all that to unfold. We will have to either gamble that he's learned enough between DeMatha and being an Associate Head Coach to run a college program on his own, or go in another direction for somebody with less local ties but a stronger overall resume. As bad as things are right now, the idea of turning over the program to somebody who is almost completely unproven at the collegiate level is extra scary. Our next coach HAS TO be a winner, or the program may never bounce back. But as risky as it is, Jones has to at least be on the list. High ceiling/low floor relative to some of the other candidates. All points well taken. (And when you're closer to 70 than to 60 like I am, 50 is young!!) |
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Nov 28, 2022 16:58:49 GMT -5
Kevin Ollie anyone?
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hoyaroc
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Post by hoyaroc on Nov 28, 2022 17:00:40 GMT -5
It’s good to dream. 🤣
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Nov 28, 2022 17:56:06 GMT -5
I have no idea who any of the suggested coaches are with the exception of Pitino. But why aren't we looking at what worked at the most successful program in the history of the Big East? Jay Wright was a Pennsylvania/Philly kid who understood not just how to coach but how to build a program. He was invested in the Philly basketball scene and brought his energy and commitment to the entire Nova community. Rather than look all over the country for a coach why not stay local (like we did with JT2) and get a guy (not older than 40) who grew up in the DMV, who has documented coaching cred, and who is HUNGRY. Leave it up to those on this Board with more knowledge than I of the local basketball scene to come up with some names. I'm not sure what you're recommending. Wright had been a head coach for six or seven years with an almost unimpeachable track record of improvement year over year. He was one of the absolute hottest coaching commodities the year he was hired. So, to get the equivalent, you'd need someone with close to that level of success at a mid major consistently, and with deep DC ties. That's.......a tall order. Or are you suggesting a young top HS coach (like we had with JT Jr)? That's an incredible risk. I guess I was more aware of Wright's ties to the Philly area than his coaching cred at Hofstra. My point is that someone who is really tuned into the DMV basketball scene and who has 10+ years coaching in it (even if it wasn't as head coach) would be better able to not just turn our program around but also make the turnaround sustainable. Reading JT2's book it is obvious that JT2 brought a tremendous amount of knowledge of the DC area basketball community and had established contacts with area coaches and local basketball junkies who could help him get the guys (Al Dutch, Craig Shelton, John Duren etc) that built the JT2 era powerhouse. Also, a guy like JT2 was HUNGRY to coach a college bball program. There has to be a local young JT2, Jay Wright, Rick Pitino out there. |
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Nov 28, 2022 17:58:47 GMT -5
so glad this thread was started. it provides hope, there are some good candidates being listed here. turnarounds can happen quickly in college basketball with a new head coach. no shame in bringing ewing aboard but it’s time to end the ewing era of coaching, it just ended up being the wrong move. let’s get this one right.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 28, 2022 18:08:02 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you're recommending. Wright had been a head coach for six or seven years with an almost unimpeachable track record of improvement year over year. He was one of the absolute hottest coaching commodities the year he was hired. So, to get the equivalent, you'd need someone with close to that level of success at a mid major consistently, and with deep DC ties. That's.......a tall order. Or are you suggesting a young top HS coach (like we had with JT Jr)? That's an incredible risk. I guess I was more aware of Wright's ties to the Philly area than his coaching cred at Hofstra. My point is that someone who is really tuned into the DMV basketball scene and who has 10+ years coaching in it (even if it wasn't as head coach) would be better able to not just turn our program around but also make the turnaround sustainable. Reading JT2's book it is obvious that JT2 brought a tremendous amount of knowledge of the DC area basketball community and had established contacts with area coaches and local basketball junkies who could help him get the guys (Al Dutch, Craig Shelton, John Duren etc) that built the JT2 era powerhouse. Also, a guy like JT2 was HUNGRY to coach a college bball program. There has to be a local young JT2, Jay Wright, Rick Pitino out there.Unless there isn't? You are setting an awfully high bar. Rick Pitino and Jay Wright are among the most elite college basketball coaches of the last 25 years. Talents like that are few and far between and do not pop up all that often. And, when they do, they usually rise through the ranks very quickly. The only name I have seen here is Mike Jones, and I admit that for someone without college head coach experience, he is an intriguing possibility. But, as others have noted there is a lot of risk there because he's never piloted a college program, though obviously he did oversee a prominent high school team. I am sure that others know a lot more about him than I do (and I know next to nothing), so I'll defer to others on that. My only caution is *coaching* is really important here. While an ace recruiter with connections in the area would be nice, we really need somebody who can get a group of 13 guys to play together coherently on both offensive and defensive ends. That's really not an easy task, and there are very, very, few coaches out there who are proven to succeed at both at the high-major college level. For me, I'd much rather have a proven coach who has already turned around another program (or improved it year over year), than somebody who is an ace recruiter with questionable coaching chops. A good, charismatic coach can address recruiting through assistants. Obviously, you'd ideally want both in a head coach, but that's not going to happen. I'm just not sure the perfect candidate with DC ties--or even a good one--exists. |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Nov 28, 2022 18:36:49 GMT -5
Rick Pitino
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..............
Everyone else.
He would crawl to get this job. He values it, he values the Big East, he values being in a metropolitan city and would value the privacy this specific job brings. He has ties to the University. There are, IMO - only a handful of jobs he'd want as much as this. And he has no buyout currently at Iona and at this point, I would imagine there's a good chance he would demand less than what you're currently paying Ewing.
He is the *only* attainable coach who puts a Big East title and a Final 4 back on the table by year three.
This program is beyond the point of being able to gamble on an unproven coach. There are qualified, long time HC's - Steve Pikiell, Mark Schmidt, etc that can put you on solid footing again but none with the upside of Pitino. a failed gamble on a young coach (say Kim English, who quite frankly stinks, but talks a good game) could set you back an additional 5 years and then you really are DePaul, or worse.
The program can't afford to not seriously look and vet Pitino. He's the only option for what the program needs - IF we're still taking things seriously around here.
And if some of his past transgressions rule him out of this job - I would highly recommended to stop paying a coach 3+ million a year - and go hire Matt Langel or James Jones and start graduating kids again and not running them off after one season. Glass houses or something.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 28, 2022 19:07:22 GMT -5
Rick Pitino ... ...... .............. Everyone else. He would crawl to get this job. He values it, he values the Big East, he values being in a metropolitan city and would value the privacy this specific job brings. He has ties to the University. There are, IMO - only a handful of jobs he'd want as much as this. And he has no buyout currently at Iona and at this point, I would imagine there's a good chance he would demand less than what you're currently paying Ewing. He is the *only* attainable coach who puts a Big East title and a Final 4 back on the table by year three. I hazard to guess that Jack D will not go for this, much less the Board. |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Nov 28, 2022 19:11:34 GMT -5
That's fine. Hire Jones or Langel and get on with it.
But for the university that re-hired Broadus and now spun the recruiting director at LSU to be your program savior - while several kids pursued *cough* other opportunities - I don't think they are above what they may want to portray.
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Nov 28, 2022 19:55:12 GMT -5
That's fine. Hire Jones or Langel and get on with it. But for the university that re-hired Broadus and now spun the recruiting director at LSU to be your program savior - while several kids pursued *cough* other opportunities - I don't think they are above what they may want to portray. We are a disciple insitiution of the church so it is very fitting that they get choosy about who deserves passes to keep the status quo of cronyism and a holier than thou attitude even with APR being in the toilet lol. Just give up and be like football until we eventually get dumped to the Pat league for all sports (note: I am quite catholic but don't really associate with the institutional church anymore for various obvious reasons) |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 28, 2022 19:55:45 GMT -5
Rick Pitino ... ...... .............. Everyone else. He would crawl to get this job. He values it, he values the Big East, he values being in a metropolitan city and would value the privacy this specific job brings. He has ties to the University. There are, IMO - only a handful of jobs he'd want as much as this. And he has no buyout currently at Iona and at this point, I would imagine there's a good chance he would demand less than what you're currently paying Ewing. He is the *only* attainable coach who puts a Big East title and a Final 4 back on the table by year three. I hazard to guess that Jack D will not go for this, much less the Board. I question whether there will be any change whatsoever as long as the administration and decision-makers remain the same, and even if there is movement at the top of the basketball program, if the same administration is in place, we are virtually guaranteed to get an uninspired choice. I hope I am wrong. |
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