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Post by augustusfinknottle on Mar 3, 2023 11:56:45 GMT -5
Pitino would not talk to them if he had no intentions of accepting the job. To say the least Georgetown has already demonstrated a willingness to pay more than market value. If he does talk to them and is not hired draw your own conclusions.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 3, 2023 13:01:20 GMT -5
Both things can be true. Patrick was set up for failure because he had no network at the college level to draw from and didn't have any real idea what went into being a successful college coach. He spent a lot of years as an assistant in the association, mostly coaching up centers and maybe learning a few things along the way about coaching professionals from the Van Gundys, Clifford, etc. That did not in any way prepare him to be a successful college basketball head coach, which involves SO MUCH more. He was totally unprepared for the job he was handed and had no idea what he would be up against. And because he didn't have a network at the college level or even a strong opinion about what type of person he needed around him to succeed, he deferred to the Thompsons, who surrounded him with Thompson loyalists like Kirby, Waheed, Ronny and Howze. I do believe he was set up to fail, both by being hired into a position he wasn't capable of handling and by the people around him giving him a support staff who were hired not because of their ability but because of their fealty to the royal family. I do not think the Thompsons or JD were purposely trying to tank Patrick or the program, I think they all legitimately talked themselves into a) Patrick can do this job and b) Ronny and this team of assistants know the game and are the best people to have around him. But they were dead wrong on both counts--the results speak for themselves. All that said, Patrick is a fully grown professional making millions and millions of dollars per year. He could have said no to the job. He could have realized that he wasn't getting what he needed from his staff. He could have changed his approach--in games, in practices, on the recruiting trail, in managing the program, in the media, etc. All of those things were in his power, and he didn't do them or didn't do them successfully. Ultimately, the responsibility is his. I don't buy the "totally unprepared" narrative. After an entirely expected transition season, in year 2 Ewing's Hoyas finished 9-9 in the BE and tied for third. Going into year three with the addition of Yurt, they looked poised to take off, particularly after taking down Texas and hanging with Duke in NYC. So in terms of initial steps and preparation, it appeared (at least on the surface) that things were advancing sufficiently. Yes, there were red flags--especially on the defensive end and with the Sodom and Walker situations, but Ewing's start was not Kenny Payne-esque either. Then came the exodus, and the plan for steady progress flew out the window. With hindsight, we know that this was not a one time bit of bad luck---player retention (in my opinion) is Ewing's biggest weakness as a college coach. But as a practical matter this meant that Ewing had to pivot to constantly filling huge roster gaps every year and taking away any opportunity for player/team development. Yet--the post Exodus year three team and the post-covid pause year four team were at times exciting and successful, culminating in the BET championship. They were far from perfect, but those teams became coherent units which demonstrated that Ewing and staff had at least some level of coaching acumen. But its really hard for any coach/program to start from scratch and reload every single year. Even Duke and UK have trouble with this, and they are reloading each time with 5*s. Last year's frosh and transfer heavy group was simply too inexperienced and did not gel. Should Ewing have been let go at that point? Almost certainly. But for whatever reason ($$$) he was given one more chance. He got desperate, totally changed his staff and brought in a bunch more transfers, but the gambit failed and the wheels completely fell off. I think what you are seeing now from Ewing is a completely dejected man who has played his last coaching card, but is too proud to admit its over. I don't think Ewing is the incompetent some would make him out to be, and with a little luck its possible things might have turned out differently. But the truth is the Exodus and everything that followed did happen, and eventually Ewing's very real flaws could not be papered over. Sometimes things just don't work out, and in this case it has depressingly spiraled. Fortunately, Georgetown hoops is still a big name and this can be reversed with the right hire. I still have no idea what Ronny does or does not do (and assume most of what others have said is speculation), so I really can't say if Ronny was a positive, negative or non-factor in this narrative. If he is indeed a malicious actor whose presence will prevent the Hoyas from bringing in a Pitino or or Cooley or Mack, then absolutely, get rid of him. If he is just being paid some salary as a term of the severance agreement with JTIII or the deferred salary which was owed to JTII, but has no real influence, then pay it out so there is one less distraction. |
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caip
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Post by caip on Mar 3, 2023 13:53:03 GMT -5
This back and forth is maddening. It’s very simple. Pat is a bad bench coach and an even worse manager of the roster. Jack has no background or expertise to oversee a major college basketball program. It’s the height of arrogance to think otherwise. I’m happy that he and Pat have a “beautiful “ relationship but thousands of students and alums are left with a broken program that has become an embarrassment. My flicker of hope that change is coming is extinguished by the knowledge that Jack will be making the decision. All he has to do is ask Pitino so a HOF coach doesn’t need to beg for the job. I fear he won’t but hope I’m wrong.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Mar 3, 2023 14:05:50 GMT -5
Both things can be true. Patrick was set up for failure because he had no network at the college level to draw from and didn't have any real idea what went into being a successful college coach. He spent a lot of years as an assistant in the association, mostly coaching up centers and maybe learning a few things along the way about coaching professionals from the Van Gundys, Clifford, etc. That did not in any way prepare him to be a successful college basketball head coach, which involves SO MUCH more. He was totally unprepared for the job he was handed and had no idea what he would be up against. And because he didn't have a network at the college level or even a strong opinion about what type of person he needed around him to succeed, he deferred to the Thompsons, who surrounded him with Thompson loyalists like Kirby, Waheed, Ronny and Howze. I do believe he was set up to fail, both by being hired into a position he wasn't capable of handling and by the people around him giving him a support staff who were hired not because of their ability but because of their fealty to the royal family. I do not think the Thompsons or JD were purposely trying to tank Patrick or the program, I think they all legitimately talked themselves into a) Patrick can do this job and b) Ronny and this team of assistants know the game and are the best people to have around him. But they were dead wrong on both counts--the results speak for themselves. All that said, Patrick is a fully grown professional making millions and millions of dollars per year. He could have said no to the job. He could have realized that he wasn't getting what he needed from his staff. He could have changed his approach--in games, in practices, on the recruiting trail, in managing the program, in the media, etc. All of those things were in his power, and he didn't do them or didn't do them successfully. Ultimately, the responsibility is his. I don't buy the "totally unprepared" narrative. After an entirely expected transition season, in year 2 Ewing's Hoyas finished 9-9 in the BE and tied for third. Going into year three with the addition of Yurt, they looked poised to take off, particularly after taking down Texas and hanging with Duke in NYC. So in terms of initial steps and preparation, it appeared (at least on the surface) that things were advancing sufficiently. Yes, there were red flags--especially on the defensive end and with the Sodom and Walker situations, but Ewing's start was not Kenny Payne-esque either. Just wanted to open up a bit of a discussion about Year 3. Sadly we'll never know what the full roster could have done over an entire season but the 4-3 start showed just as much reason for concern as optimism. The trip to NY was definitely the highlight. The rest, alarming. In the opener Georgetown was down 19 in the second half at home before coming back to beat a bad MSM team that finished 11-21. Then they got blasted at home in the third games in a wire to wire win, no sweat victory by Penn State. Giving up 83 to Georgia State at home showed that once again the defense was going to be an issue. Given what we've seen from Ewing over his entire time at Georgetown, it's hard to imagine he would have done well with an 11 man rotation on a nightly basis. I'm not saying you did this but some people have such a different view of what the start to the 2019-20 season was as compared to the reality. Some think that Georgetown was ranked at one point after the Texas win. They were not. |
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Mar 3, 2023 14:21:07 GMT -5
Why is this even a discussion, he’s a bad coach at pretty much everything.
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Mar 3, 2023 14:49:33 GMT -5
What I will never understand is that he got aggressively worse the last two seasons. All of the interesting sets/wrinkles he'd run his first couple years he totally left behind (maybe just a product of losing Jessie and MD skillset, but even so we never saw the insanity of what this years' offense turned into). It's like he just quit trying on the offensive end almost. Defense was always bad - but obviously it found new depths (historic levels of bad)
He was never 'good' but he certainly was adequate at times through the first four years and now he's turned into of the worst coaches I have ever seen at this level. I hate to say he threw in the towel at some point last year, but I don't know how else to explain it.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 3, 2023 15:04:09 GMT -5
What I will never understand is that he got aggressively worse the last two seasons. All of the interesting sets/wrinkles he'd run his first couple years he totally left behind (maybe just a product of losing Jessie and MD skillset, but even so we never saw the insanity of what this years' offense turned into). It's like he just quit trying on the offensive end almost. Defense was always bad - but obviously it found new depths (historic levels of bad) He was never 'good' but he certainly was adequate at times through the first four years and now he's turned into of the worst coaches I have ever seen at this level. I hate to say he threw in the towel at some point last year, but I don't know how else to explain it. This is essentially my point. I don't think even given the best of circumstances Ewing was going to get to a Final 4, but the earlier seasons showed that he's better than...this. My best guess as to why it all came so spectacularly down is that when these last two teams didn't gel, he panicked and felt his best bet was to allow Dante/Aminu last year and Primo/Murray this year to do their thing, hoping that eventually the rest of the team would come together like it did the second half of the covid season. Instead, it just discouraged the rest of the team, the players tuned out Ewing, and it all deteriorated. |
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 3, 2023 15:15:27 GMT -5
I don't buy the "totally unprepared" narrative. After an entirely expected transition season, in year 2 Ewing's Hoyas finished 9-9 in the BE and tied for third. Going into year three with the addition of Yurt, they looked poised to take off, particularly after taking down Texas and hanging with Duke in NYC. So in terms of initial steps and preparation, it appeared (at least on the surface) that things were advancing sufficiently. Yes, there were red flags--especially on the defensive end and with the Sodom and Walker situations, but Ewing's start was not Kenny Payne-esque either. Just wanted to open up a bit of a discussion about Year 3. Sadly we'll never know what the full roster could have done over an entire season but the 4-3 start showed just as much reason for concern as optimism. The trip to NY was definitely the highlight. The rest, alarming. In the opener Georgetown was down 19 in the second half at home before coming back to beat a bad MSM team that finished 11-21. Then they got blasted at home in the third games in a wire to wire win, no sweat victory by Penn State. Giving up 83 to Georgia State at home showed that once again the defense was going to be an issue. Given what we've seen from Ewing over his entire time at Georgetown, it's hard to imagine he would have done well with an 11 man rotation on a nightly basis. I'm not saying you did this but some people have such a different view of what the start to the 2019-20 season was as compared to the reality. Some think that Georgetown was ranked at one point after the Texas win. They were not. No doubt there was cause for concern--but to clarify the Exodus didn't come out of nowhere the day after the UNC Greensboro debacle. There was clearly already serious internal discord and no doubt that was a big factor in some other less than impressive performances before the departures. Can those issues and the exodus be placed on Ewing? Certainly. But what the UT and Duke games made clear was the very real potential of that group Ewing pieced together. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 3, 2023 16:17:05 GMT -5
What I will never understand is that he got aggressively worse the last two seasons. All of the interesting sets/wrinkles he'd run his first couple years he totally left behind (maybe just a product of losing Jessie and MD skillset, but even so we never saw the insanity of what this years' offense turned into). It's like he just quit trying on the offensive end almost. Defense was always bad - but obviously it found new depths (historic levels of bad) He was never 'good' but he certainly was adequate at times through the first four years and now he's turned into of the worst coaches I have ever seen at this level. I hate to say he threw in the towel at some point last year, but I don't know how else to explain it. This is essentially my point. I don't think even given the best of circumstances Ewing was going to get to a Final 4, but the earlier seasons showed that he's better than...this. My best guess as to why it all came so spectacularly down is that when these last two teams didn't gel, he panicked and felt his best bet was to allow Dante/Aminu last year and Primo/Murray this year to do their thing, hoping that eventually the rest of the team would come together like it did the second half of the covid season. Instead, it just discouraged the rest of the team, the players tuned out Ewing, and it all deteriorated. Why Ewing hit rock bottom is unclear and likely there are multiple causes, these are some I can think of: 1. The first few seasons had several players coached by JT3. 2. The first few seasons had very solid talent (not spectacular but not bad) in both Govan, Derrickson, Johnson, Moslely, but also Akinjo, McClung, LeBlanc. 3. John Thompson Jr. died and was no longer a mentor to him. 4. The roster turnover has only gotten worse since the first Ewing season and the lack of continuity makes it harder to succeed. Ewing lost three full recruiting classes to transfers. Ewing has never been a good coach, though. Even his best team wasn’t an at large NCAA bid, nor was it close. |
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 3, 2023 16:34:26 GMT -5
Just wanted to open up a bit of a discussion about Year 3. Sadly we'll never know what the full roster could have done over an entire season but the 4-3 start showed just as much reason for concern as optimism. The trip to NY was definitely the highlight. The rest, alarming. In the opener Georgetown was down 19 in the second half at home before coming back to beat a bad MSM team that finished 11-21. Then they got blasted at home in the third games in a wire to wire win, no sweat victory by Penn State. Giving up 83 to Georgia State at home showed that once again the defense was going to be an issue. Given what we've seen from Ewing over his entire time at Georgetown, it's hard to imagine he would have done well with an 11 man rotation on a nightly basis. I'm not saying you did this but some people have such a different view of what the start to the 2019-20 season was as compared to the reality. Some think that Georgetown was ranked at one point after the Texas win. They were not. No doubt there was cause for concern--but to clarify the Exodus didn't come out of nowhere the day after the UNC Greensboro debacle. There was clearly already serious internal discord and no doubt that was a big factor in some other less than impressive performances before the departures. Can those issues and the exodus be placed on Ewing? Certainly. But what the UT and Duke games made clear was the very real potential of that group Ewing pieced together. Exodus all came from LeBlanc and companies legal issues and Akonjo’s dislike of Mac. Then the 50 accusatory letters from admin on kids who were still innocent. You do wonder how things would have panned out if Akinjo had swallowed his pride and accepted Mac and if LeBlanc had stayed out of trouble. Season would have been wiped away by COVID ( a la #1 seed Dayton) but that team had talent and depth. It’s sad how LeBlancs career really fell off after that. Coach showcased him and LeBlanc had NBA talent if developed properly. But he was never the same after he left. |
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Mar 3, 2023 16:50:34 GMT -5
He stunk from the get go. In his first year (at Creighton?) , down a point or two we gave a foul rather than play defense with way more than shot clock time left. Clueless.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 3, 2023 16:51:04 GMT -5
You’re talking about 50+ years ago. Everything - literally, everything - surrounding the upcoming hire is different than it was a half century ago. Harkening back to the past to guide the way forward is what has gotten us into this miserable predicament. You completely missed the point of my post. As I say upfront I think Pitino is our best chance of returning the program to prominence. But I was trying to point out that GU is probably looking at more than just pure coaching ability from the person it selects. Considering the University's efforts to maintain its reputation as an "elite" academic institution, and looking at its efforts over the past 40 years to both connect with the DC black community and project itself as an inclusive and diverse institution I feel certain that the University would never consider men like Pitino and Brey and just might think "outside the box", like they did 48 years ago, and approach Dawn Staley. I agree that the jury is out on whether she would actually be a successful D1 mens basketball coach but I'm trying to make the point that what many of the posters are looking for in a new coach is probably not what DeGoia and the Board may be looking for. I didn’t miss the point of your post at all. I just think you’re completely wrong on this. |
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astrohoya
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Post by astrohoya on Mar 3, 2023 17:01:12 GMT -5
You do wonder how things would have panned out if Akinjo had swallowed his pride and accepted Mac and if LeBlanc had stayed out of trouble. Season would have been wiped away by COVID ( a la #1 seed Dayton) but that team had talent and depth. Good coaches figure out a way to get players to play with each other and bring out the best in each other. Good coaches get players to put team before personal pride. Good coaches figure out a way to use depth to patch up losses. Pat Ewing is not a good coach. Please, Jack, announce his departure so we can stop talking about his awfulness and focus on the future. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 3, 2023 17:13:52 GMT -5
Pitino to Georgetown talk is really healing up. Seems like that’s the likeliest scenario at the moment. Mood could be very very different in these parts in 2-3 weeks.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 3, 2023 17:34:17 GMT -5
No doubt there was cause for concern--but to clarify the Exodus didn't come out of nowhere the day after the UNC Greensboro debacle. There was clearly already serious internal discord and no doubt that was a big factor in some other less than impressive performances before the departures. Can those issues and the exodus be placed on Ewing? Certainly. But what the UT and Duke games made clear was the very real potential of that group Ewing pieced together. Exodus all came from LeBlanc and companies legal issues and Akonjo’s dislike of Mac. Then the 50 accusatory letters from admin on kids who were still innocent. You do wonder how things would have panned out if Akinjo had swallowed his pride and accepted Mac and if LeBlanc had stayed out of trouble. Season would have been wiped away by COVID ( a la #1 seed Dayton) but that team had talent and depth. It’s sad how LeBlancs career really fell off after that. Coach showcased him and LeBlanc had NBA talent if developed properly. But he was never the same after he left. Initially, I would have agreed that the Exodus was simply a matter of factors more or less outside of Ewing's control. Unfortunately, many more players have transferred since then, which calls into question the bad luck narrative. To be fair, the need to emergency back fill after the exodus may have compounded the issue, but the fact is that Ewing's inability to retain anyone (with the notable exceptions of Blair and Pickett) is how we got here. In terms of the next Hoyas coach, among other attributes, we need someone who can stop the roster chaos. |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Mar 3, 2023 17:43:25 GMT -5
Pitino to Georgetown talk is really healing up. Seems like that’s the likeliest scenario at the moment. Mood could be very very different in these parts in 2-3 weeks. When the chatter started I was a naysayer. Couldn’t see it happening. But I have to admit there’s an awful lot of smoke that make me at least think it’s possible. For the sake of the program let’s hope the smoke turns into fire. Never will we get this rare opportunity to hire a HOF coach on the cheap, wanting redemption. |
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Mar 3, 2023 17:44:16 GMT -5
In the Exodus season - after the players left, while Mac and Yurtseven were still healthy: the team played some of its best ball under Ewing. We won six in a row, a few against decent teams. I think we beat OK. State, Texas tech, and Syracuse in that run. Terell Allen and Mosely played very sound basketball, Mac and Blair provided the perimeter offense, and Yurtseven was an effective post scorer. We looked like a real team for about 3 weeks, even after the 5 players left.
But then Mac got poked in the eye in the 6th game of this run, and missed a few games. Then after he came back, he hurt his foot and basically did not play for the rest of the year. Then Yurtseven went down in our last win of the season. the team still battled pretty well in a few of their losses to end the season, but we were just too shorthanded.
The departures are surely on Ewing to some extent. But if Mac and Yurtseven had not gotten hurt - that team might have been able to make a run at the NCAA tournament. Having a real point guard in Allen was the key - he and Mosely kept the offense organized. We generally had good ball movement. Nothing like the garbage offense we have played for the past two seasons. The D was not good, but it was not the complete disaster of confusion and lazy transition D we have seen for the past two seasons.
The following season - they did pull it to gather to play fairly well for the final month of the season, and then had that bizarre dream week at the Garden. then back to reality in the colorado debacle.
During this stretch - -we did play some good basketball for stretches when the team was healthy Not great, but certainly competitive on a Big East level. But the talent diisappeared last season, and the coaching disappeared as well. then this season - they got desperate and broghjt in some talented guys who had no interest in playing team basketball, with no coaches who were inclined to force the players to do so.
Ewing has to go - he failed spetacularly. But there were stretches where it looked like the Ewing experiment had a shot at working, where there were some reasons for optimism. But he could not build on any success he did manage to have, and then he just let the entire thing collapse over the past two seasons.
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 3, 2023 18:32:13 GMT -5
Pitino to Georgetown talk is really healing up. Seems like that’s the likeliest scenario at the moment. Mood could be very very different in these parts in 2-3 weeks. He's been in waiting for more than just recently. |
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 3, 2023 18:44:52 GMT -5
In the Exodus season - after the players left, while Mac and Yurtseven were still healthy: the team played some of its best ball under Ewing. We won six in a row, a few against decent teams. I think we beat OK. State, Texas tech, and Syracuse in that run. Terell Allen and Mosely played very sound basketball, Mac and Blair provided the perimeter offense, and Yurtseven was an effective post scorer. We looked like a real team for about 3 weeks, even after the 5 players left. But then Mac got poked in the eye in the 6th game of this run, and missed a few games. Then after he came back, he hurt his foot and basically did not play for the rest of the year. Then Yurtseven went down in our last win of the season. the team still battled pretty well in a few of their losses to end the season, but we were just too shorthanded. The departures are surely on Ewing to some extent. But if Mac and Yurtseven had not gotten hurt - that team might have been able to make a run at the NCAA tournament. Having a real point guard in Allen was the key - he and Mosely kept the offense organized. We generally had good ball movement. Nothing like the garbage offense we have played for the past two seasons. The D was not good, but it was not the complete disaster of confusion and lazy transition D we have seen for the past two seasons. The following season - they did pull it to gather to play fairly well for the final month of the season, and then had that bizarre dream week at the Garden. then back to reality in the colorado debacle. During this stretch - -we did play some good basketball for stretches when the team was healthy Not great, but certainly competitive on a Big East level. But the talent diisappeared last season, and the coaching disappeared as well. then this season - they got desperate and broghjt in some talented guys who had no interest in playing team basketball, with no coaches who were inclined to force the players to do so. Ewing has to go - he failed spetacularly. But there were stretches where it looked like the Ewing experiment had a shot at working, where there were some reasons for optimism. But he could not build on any success he did manage to have, and then he just let the entire thing collapse over the past two seasons. Explained very well. I'd say at least 3 out of the 6 years Ewing was at the helm, the team really had a chance in beginning to mid season and then things started happening to derail the seasons. Ewing's lack of success can be defined more by the players who LEFT than who were here for their full 4 years. Keep most of those classes together and you've got some experience and pretty good teams that being said, a good coach becomes apparent fairly quickly. should not take six years to figure out. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 3, 2023 19:36:11 GMT -5
Well, I guess the “bury Ewing’s firing at 5 pm on Friday” thing isn’t happening. I never expected it would, but I was hoping smart minds might make the decision that needs to be made.
I’ll say again - ANYTHING later than the day after we lose in the BET (almost certainly Thursday, it needs to happen).
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