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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 3, 2023 9:09:26 GMT -5
There's not nearly enough consideration here for the possibility that Pitino wouldn't take it. And, of course, if that happens, we may never even know. Because he would absolutely take it To be clear...I'm in favor of our getting him. And I do think he will take it. I'm just saying that I can't be as certain as you and many others.
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Post by oldhoyafan3 on Mar 3, 2023 9:23:53 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 3, 2023 9:26:07 GMT -5
At this point, I think it's fair to assume that JT2 ordered Jack to hire Esherick, fire Esherick, hire JT3 and hire Ewing. It's neither fair nor accurate. 1. Leo O'Donovan was president when Craig Esherick was promoted to head coach. 2. The board forced the issue on Craig Esherick, just two weeks after Esherick getting DeGioia's personal endorsement. John did not, and would not have told anyone to fire his hand-picked successor and risk having it go outside the family. 3. John was not involved in the hiring of JT III and steered clear of it. JT III was clearly the best of the three candidates that emerged and John had no need to interfere. John Thompson was a very smart man. He may have cleared the tracks for Ewing when no one formally applied but he did not tell Jack to do anything.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 3, 2023 9:33:53 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was.
I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Mar 3, 2023 9:35:43 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. He could have said no or left when it was clear he was both absurdly in over his head and not in a place well suited for an incompetent like himself. But, he didn’t so deleted him. No sympathy for him.
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Post by oldhoyafan3 on Mar 3, 2023 9:39:16 GMT -5
As I stated there's a big elephant in the room Sorry I’m missing the elephant. Can you elaborate? There are some fans, both alum and non-alum alike, who have expressed that. Some feel as if Hoya basketball is DC's hoops team and not necessarily the school's team. Some feel as if Georgetown's role in African American culture would mean hiring a minority coach. I get it. I grew up in rural Virginia as a huge Hoyas fan and many of my classmates used to ask why I root for an HBCU. We need to remember however that Craig Esherick was JT's handpicked successor, not Mike Riley. I also hope that we can hire the BEST candidate to resurrect the hoops program, regardless of skin color. A winning culture would bring back fans regardless of what the Coach and players looked like.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 3, 2023 9:45:51 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. This. 100%
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astrohoya
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Post by astrohoya on Mar 3, 2023 9:53:00 GMT -5
Pat was set up to fail. He was asked to take a job he did not have the experience or competence for. The people that hired him (and the people who thought his hiring was a good idea) are certainly responsible for that.
But Pat is a grown man and he could say no. He was richly compensated for this choice even before the extension that will turn out to be a $12 million gift from the university. Pat has continued on to collect that money long past the point it was obvious he had failed at his job, and at this point there is not any even evidence he is trying.
I’m a lawyer, and it is actually a violation of our professional ethics to take on a job we know we are unqualified or unequipped to do.
So yes, the people that hired him set him up for failure and should answer that. But spare me the violins for Pat Ewing. His failure is his responsibility.
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Mar 3, 2023 9:55:10 GMT -5
Gosh. Then I guess Ronny should go too.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 3, 2023 9:56:12 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. All of which conveniently overlooks Big John’s megalomaniacal need to control the program. Why did he clear the tracks for Ewing? Because he wanted his own person in place. Big John was entirely too smart to believe Pat could coach well. 15 years an assistant in the NBA without a sniff of a head coaching job tells you everything you need to know about his coaxing acumen. 15 years an assistant then hand selected to Coach Georgetown (Esherick Deja Vu). He put him there so the Thompson family honoraria would continue unabated. Job for Ronny; job for all the affiliated hangers on like Howze, etc. The bad guy here was and remains Big John. He put Pat in place to keep the gravy train rolling knowing full well Pat was not up to the task and that it would be well nigh impossible for GU to fire him. Pat screwed it up by being so awful as to be beyond the pale.
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Post by practice on Mar 3, 2023 9:56:29 GMT -5
At this point, I think it's fair to assume that JT2 ordered Jack to hire Esherick, fire Esherick, hire JT3 and hire Ewing. It's neither fair nor accurate. 1. Leo O'Donovan was president when Craig Esherick was promoted to head coach. 2. The board forced the issue on Craig Esherick, just two weeks after Esherick getting DeGioia's personal endorsement. John did not, and would not have told anyone to fire his hand-picked successor and risk having it go outside the family. 3. John was not involved in the hiring of JT III and steered clear of it. JT III was clearly the best of the three candidates that emerged and John had no need to interfere. John Thompson was a very smart man. He may have cleared the tracks for Ewing when no one formally applied but he did not tell Jack to do anything. DeGioia himself has said he’s been running men’s basketball since the 1980s. I’d encourage you to recount your retelling of theEsherick hiring and firing and JT3’s hiring to Craig Esherik …. And then duck. You carry DeGioia’s water on this site. You find endless ways to deflect blame from DeGioia when it helps him and then you try to make him sound like some independent voice when that benefits him. JT2 was a great coach. He also micromanaged the program for his own and his inner circles benefit until the day he died. The results are evident. Since 1972 either JT2 or his pick has been head coach. His other son is chief of staff. Spin all you like but you can’t deny reality.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 3, 2023 10:00:03 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. Oh come on, this argument is such a cop-out and blaming everyone but Ewing - it's Big John's fault for pushing him into the role! It's Kirby and Waheed's fault! It's Ronny's fault! It's Bill Howze's fault! It completely ignores the fact that Ronny isn't the only one hiring friends and family and creating an insular culture - Patrick has been doing that too. After last year, everyone blamed the players and Kirby and Waheed for recruiting them, then celebrated the transfers that were brought in ... and the results are worse (Georgetown 2022 was 175 in kenpom, Georgetown 2023 is 217) and this team has a level of dissension that wasn't present last year. So you have to ask yourself - were Kirby and Waheed really the issue? Were their hands tied in recruiting in ways that Nickelberry's weren't? If JT2 did clear the tracks for Patrick (Shaka Smart, etc), it means that everyone else but Patrick had the common sense to realize this was going to be a dysfunctional situation they should stay away from.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 3, 2023 10:04:13 GMT -5
Pat was set up to fail. He was asked to take a job he did not have the experience or competence for. The people that hired him (and the people who thought his hiring was a good idea) are certainly responsible for that. But Pat is a grown man and he could say no. He was richly compensated for this choice even before the extension that will turn out to be a $12 million gift from the university. Pat has continued on to collect that money long past the point it was obvious he had failed at his job, and at this point there is not any even evidence he is trying. I’m a lawyer, and it is actually a violation of our professional ethics to take on a job we know we are unqualified or unequipped to do. So yes, the people that hired him set him up for failure and should answer that. But spare me the violins for Pat Ewing. His failure is his responsibility. Lawyer is not equivalent to basketball coach and there are many many lawyers taking on jobs and lawsuits they have no right bringing. Patrick probably thought he could do it and figured he was qualified. He also had one fleeting moment to make him think he had turned the corner so when we stupidly threw more money at him, he took it. He wouldn't be the first big ego running around the Gtown campus thinking he was better than he actually was. I'm not out here saying to feel bad for the guy. I'm just saying that a few years of perspective will hopefully mend the inevitable falling out of all of this.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 3, 2023 10:07:37 GMT -5
DeGioia himself has said he’s been running men’s basketball since the 1980s. I’d encourage you to recount your retelling of theEsherick hiring and firing and JT3’s hiring to Craig Esherik …. And then duck. Was Leo O'Donovan not the president for 12 years?
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 3, 2023 10:14:00 GMT -5
DeGioia himself has said he’s been running men’s basketball since the 1980s. I’d encourage you to recount your retelling of theEsherick hiring and firing and JT3’s hiring to Craig Esherik …. And then duck. Was Leo O'Donovan not the president for 12 years? What practice said isn't wrong.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 3, 2023 10:20:24 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. I think he was set up to fail by everyone involved, I've had many back & forth with folks on the very subject. All of the items listed in your post are things that any coach will need to have a chance at being successful, and most will demand to know how the administration is going to fix these issues before accepting the job. If Pitino says to JD would you be willing to bring in new eyes on all levels of the program? Examples are marketing, fundraising/outreach, trainers, nutritionists etc.. Would he be willing to accommodate these demands?
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Mar 3, 2023 10:25:34 GMT -5
Pat was set up to fail. He was asked to take a job he did not have the experience or competence for. The people that hired him (and the people who thought his hiring was a good idea) are certainly responsible for that. But Pat is a grown man and he could say no. He was richly compensated for this choice even before the extension that will turn out to be a $12 million gift from the university. Pat has continued on to collect that money long past the point it was obvious he had failed at his job, and at this point there is not any even evidence he is trying. I’m a lawyer, and it is actually a violation of our professional ethics to take on a job we know we are unqualified or unequipped to do. So yes, the people that hired him set him up for failure and should answer that. But spare me the violins for Pat Ewing. His failure is his responsibility. Lawyer is not equivalent to basketball coach and there are many many lawyers taking on jobs and lawsuits they have no right bringing. Patrick probably thought he could do it and figured he was qualified. He also had one fleeting moment to make him think he had turned the corner so when we stupidly threw more money at him, he took it. He wouldn't be the first big ego running around the Gtown campus thinking he was better than he actually was. I'm not out here saying to feel bad for the guy. I'm just saying that a few years of perspective will hopefully mend the inevitable falling out of all of this. I suppose it's possible that Patrick both didn't want the job and thought he could do it. Of course, his recurring failure to look in the mirror, acknowledge his shortcomings and change is a product of the same, oversized ego that led him to believe he could succeed as Head Coach.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 3, 2023 10:29:56 GMT -5
Both things can be true.
Patrick was set up for failure because he had no network at the college level to draw from and didn't have any real idea what went into being a successful college coach. He spent a lot of years as an assistant in the association, mostly coaching up centers and maybe learning a few things along the way about coaching professionals from the Van Gundys, Clifford, etc. That did not in any way prepare him to be a successful college basketball head coach, which involves SO MUCH more. He was totally unprepared for the job he was handed and had no idea what he would be up against. And because he didn't have a network at the college level or even a strong opinion about what type of person he needed around him to succeed, he deferred to the Thompsons, who surrounded him with Thompson loyalists like Kirby, Waheed, Ronny and Howze. I do believe he was set up to fail, both by being hired into a position he wasn't capable of handling and by the people around him giving him a support staff who were hired not because of their ability but because of their fealty to the royal family. I do not think the Thompsons or JD were purposely trying to tank Patrick or the program, I think they all legitimately talked themselves into a) Patrick can do this job and b) Ronny and this team of assistants know the game and are the best people to have around him. But they were dead wrong on both counts--the results speak for themselves.
All that said, Patrick is a fully grown professional making millions and millions of dollars per year. He could have said no to the job. He could have realized that he wasn't getting what he needed from his staff. He could have changed his approach--in games, in practices, on the recruiting trail, in managing the program, in the media, etc. All of those things were in his power, and he didn't do them or didn't do them successfully. Ultimately, the responsibility is his.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 3, 2023 10:43:27 GMT -5
One point that is sometimes missed with Ewing (especially with folks mad at him for his extension), he didn't really want the Georgetown job and said as much after being hired. He specifically said he wouldn't have even entertained going to the college ranks if it weren't for being talked into it by Big John. I hope when all the dust settles, people can step back and see this for what it was. I want to see new leadership for sure. But I also think Pat was set-up to fail by Ronny & the hanger on types. That is the biggest impediment to the next coach. Pat needed someone to help him parse the quickly changing college landscape. He needed someone to bring in new ideas, engage the alumni, and change the antiquated ways the program had been run. Yes, Pat didn't adapt and that is his fault but he also didn't get much help along the way. Oh come on, this argument is such a cop-out and blaming everyone but Ewing - it's Big John's fault for pushing him into the role! It's Kirby and Waheed's fault! It's Ronny's fault! It's Bill Howze's fault! It completely ignores the fact that Ronny isn't the only one hiring friends and family and creating an insular culture - Patrick has been doing that too. After last year, everyone blamed the players and Kirby and Waheed for recruiting them, then celebrated the transfers that were brought in ... and the results are worse (Georgetown 2022 was 175 in kenpom, Georgetown 2023 is 217) and this team has a level of dissension that wasn't present last year. So you have to ask yourself - were Kirby and Waheed really the issue? Were their hands tied in recruiting in ways that Nickelberry's weren't? If JT2 did clear the tracks for Patrick (Shaka Smart, etc), it means that everyone else but Patrick had the common sense to realize this was going to be a dysfunctional situation they should stay away from. Obviously, PE has to take a huge chunk of the blame for his failure as a head coach but all the off-court decision-makers have to take their share as well. This is especially true when they'll be looking for a new coach soon, what will their answer be to the simple question of how did you allow it to get this bad? Every possible candidate is going to know how dysfunctional the administration is going in, they're going to want to know what changes are in the works to fix the issues.. How will JD or Reed or the board answer these basic questions? Business as usual is not going to work any longer in my view
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 3, 2023 10:51:18 GMT -5
Here's the thing - no one's going to believe any "we talked to Pitino and couldn't make it happen" story. You can't sell that kind of nonsense after the way the last two searches have gone where they put up the AD and a respected alum on a panel, told us they'd do a nationwide search, and then hired whoever JT2 wanted. There's zero trust here - no one is going to be giving them credit for a process we know has been Kabuki theater in the past. If Pitino ends up at Kentucky - that's one thing. Their program has the budget of a small nation-state - we can't compete with that. If Pitino ended up at St. John's, is anyone going to believe they tried? Whoever the result is, that's who they had in mind. Agreed that no sentient Hoya fan would fall for such a story. But it doesn't mean Jack D wouldn't try!
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