Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 21, 2021 12:51:05 GMT -5
That leads to the bigger question of can you make a deep tournament run with an old school big? You risk being taken down by a three ball shooting mid-major willing to trade twos for threes.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,965
|
Post by EtomicB on Mar 21, 2021 13:01:01 GMT -5
That leads to the bigger question of can you make a deep tournament run with an old school big? You risk being taken down by a three ball shooting mid-major willing to trade twos for threes. Of course, but you also have to have flexibility in your program that allows you to match up with smaller line-ups, going from Wahab to Tim I., Wilson or Mutumbo won't work well... Also no need to bring mid-major schools into the discussion both Nova & Creighton trade two’s for three’s.
|
|
bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,831
|
Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 21, 2021 13:39:04 GMT -5
That leads to the bigger question of can you make a deep tournament run with an old school big? You risk being taken down by a three ball shooting mid-major willing to trade twos for threes. I’ve thought a bit about this as I’ve processed the game. Wahab was our best option on offense but a liability on defense. They basically let Wahab get his points, shut the rest of our offense down, and took advantage of him on defense because we had to keep him out there. We both didn’t have any other options in terms of lineup and had to have his presence to get points. In the off season, though, I sure wish Wahab would improve his ability to finish down low, especially through contact. He has the potential to be a dominant offensive player. I do think yesterday shows that we have to have more depth to win games in the big stage. We don’t have to play 10-11 guys, but we at least need the ability to “go small” if we drew a team like you describe. The best teams in the post-season seem to be versatile teams that have several ways to win. Georgetown under Ewing will always be a force inside, but we need a lineup that gives us opportunities in-game to adjust to our opponents. I actually give Ewing a lot of credit for getting as much as he did out of this team. We weren’t a deep team, and he did a nice job of getting this team to play with toughness. Some depth, though, especially in terms of lineup options, would really help us take it to another level.
|
|
vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,329
Member is Online
|
Post by vv83 on Mar 21, 2021 14:39:44 GMT -5
Tough to have the depth for small ball when you have 4 centers on the roster, all of whom are primarily low post 7 footers. If Mutombo can develop a decent 3 point shot - he could give us more versatility offensively. But defensively - any center that can't defend a guard on the perimeter off a PnR switch is going to get played off the court by any good small ball team, unless they are truly dominant offensive players. Even then - you end up trading 2s for 3s, so you are at a disadvantage.
I feel kind of bad for the big, skilled, slow low post 7 footers who cannot shoot 3s. They really have become dinosaurs.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Florida State defends Colorado. Hamilton likes to play true big men at the 5, but his guys tend to be more athletic and perhaps better able to defend the perimater, or toggle back and forth between defending the rim and defending the 3. Wahab is not close to being able to do either of these things defensively, which is a big part of what sunk us yesterday.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Mar 21, 2021 15:18:41 GMT -5
That leads to the bigger question of can you make a deep tournament run with an old school big? You risk being taken down by a three ball shooting mid-major willing to trade twos for threes. You need some balance. Inside game and out. In this day and age, everyone is in love with the 3, but jump shooting teams have their limitations too. And they too get their reality checks come tournament time. Balance is key. We couldn't generate anything on the perimeter because of Colorado's tough defense. It exposed our lack of ballhandlers and dribble penetrators to disrupt a defense (It is also why we are turnover prone). So, we took awkward outside shots. All we had was Q at that point.
|
|
vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,329
Member is Online
|
Post by vv83 on Mar 21, 2021 15:45:23 GMT -5
That leads to the bigger question of can you make a deep tournament run with an old school big? You risk being taken down by a three ball shooting mid-major willing to trade twos for threes. You need some balance. Inside game and out. In this day and age, everyone is in love with the 3, but jump shooting teams have their limitations too. And they too get their reality checks come tournament time. Balance is key. We couldn't generate anything on the perimeter because of Colorado's tough defense. It exposed our lack of ballhandlers and dribble penetrators to disrupt a defense (It is also why we are turnover prone). So, we took awkward outside shots. All we had was Q at that point. Hopefully Aminu, Riley, and Beard will give us a set of players who can initiate offense by beating their man off the dribble. Add Harris to the three freshmen, and we should always have a couple of guys on the court who can threaten the defense with the ball in their hands. While our shooting may not be as good next year, we should have a lot more options for generating good looks.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Mar 21, 2021 15:57:33 GMT -5
You need some balance. Inside game and out. In this day and age, everyone is in love with the 3, but jump shooting teams have their limitations too. And they too get their reality checks come tournament time. Balance is key. We couldn't generate anything on the perimeter because of Colorado's tough defense. It exposed our lack of ballhandlers and dribble penetrators to disrupt a defense (It is also why we are turnover prone). So, we took awkward outside shots. All we had was Q at that point. Hopefully Aminu, Riley, and Beard will give us a set of players who can initiate offense by beating their man off the dribble. Add Harris to the three freshmen, and we should always have a couple of guys on the court who can threaten the defense with the ball in their hands. While our shooting may not be as good next year, we should have a lot more options for generating good looks. That is a lot of hope. We'll have to see how they adjust to the college level. Right now, Dante is the only returning guard with experience next year. Biggest hope is if these guys have the desire and capability to defend. Defense is still the biggest priority right now.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 21, 2021 16:08:24 GMT -5
The answer may be that you can win with an “old school big” if that player is truly dominant. May not want to stockpile immobile 7 footers though.
|
|
3xhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by 3xhoya on Mar 21, 2021 21:52:26 GMT -5
The answer may be that you can win with an “old school big” if that player is truly dominant. May not want to stockpile immobile 7 footers though. Would you consider Kofi Cockburn a truly dominant old school big? They seem too easy to plan against. The players that seem impossible to stop and can carry a team are the ones with multiple skill sets and are very athletic.
|
|
smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,300
|
Post by smokeyjack on Mar 22, 2021 7:31:53 GMT -5
The answer may be that you can win with an “old school big” if that player is truly dominant. May not want to stockpile immobile 7 footers though. Would you consider Kofi Cockburn a truly dominant old school big? They seem too easy to plan against. The players that seem impossible to stop and can carry a team are the ones with multiple skill sets and are very athletic. Issue with both Cockburn and Q is that they are both truly dreadful passers. Illinois, like us, didn’t play inside out through the post, both offenses dead-ended in the post because neither big was a remotely refined passer. Getting touches in there is critical to keep the floor balanced and keep opponents guessing and adjusting, but you can’t flip the odds on the swapping 3s for 2s scenario unless your post is adept at kicking the ball back out to open perimeter players. If Q never learns this, he’ll severely limit our offense if the first option is to always look inside. Now, if the goal with infusing athletic wings is to defend like crazy on one end and alternate between playing transition and halfcourt dump and chase to Q with those athletes crashing the glass on other end, that will be effective against most teams but really not great basketball...certainly not great to watch. I think key will be recruiting guys who give Pat options. But unlike everyone else who seems in love with Q and his development, I see a guy who struggles to finish at the rim and struggles even more to draw-and-kick to perimeter. I realize this season we were often desperate for any offense, but Q needs to improve significantly to merit being focal point of offense in 3-point era. Not hating on Q, because he is much improved. But I do think they need to really work on his passing out of the post, ESPECIALLY if he intends to play in the league.
|
|
|
Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 22, 2021 8:26:31 GMT -5
Would you consider Kofi Cockburn a truly dominant old school big? They seem too easy to plan against. The players that seem impossible to stop and can carry a team are the ones with multiple skill sets and are very athletic. Issue with both Cockburn and Q is that they are both truly dreadful passers. Illinois, like us, didn’t play inside out through the post, both offenses dead-ended in the post because neither big was a remotely refined passer. Getting touches in there is critical to keep the floor balanced and keep opponents guessing and adjusting, but you can’t flip the odds on the swapping 3s for 2s scenario unless your post is adept at kicking the ball back out to open perimeter players. If Q never learns this, he’ll severely limit our offense if the first option is to always look inside. Now, if the goal with infusing athletic wings is to defend like crazy on one end and alternate between playing transition and halfcourt dump and chase to Q with those athletes crashing the glass on other end, that will be effective against most teams but really not great basketball...certainly not great to watch. I think key will be recruiting guys who give Pat options. But unlike everyone else who seems in love with Q and his development, I see a guy who struggles to finish at the rim and struggles even more to draw-and-kick to perimeter. I realize this season we were often desperate for any offense, but Q needs to improve significantly to merit being focal point of offense in 3-point era. Not hating on Q, because he is much improved. But I do think they need to really work on his passing out of the post, ESPECIALLY if he intends to play in the league. Biggest difference between Q and Cockburn right now are in these 3 stats: FG%: Cockburn 65.4%, Wahab 59.1% TO%: Cockburn 13.2%, Wahab 18.9% FTR (not %, but rate of getting to the line): Cockburn 66.4, Wahab 52.6 You'd expect a guy like Yurt who was taking a fair bit of jumpers to not shoot 60%+ from the floor, but for guys with similar limited range like Q/Cockburn, Q's got to finish at a higher rate inside 2-3 feet with more regularity. Despite Illinois losing yesterday, Cockburn was basically automatic anytime he got a paint touch; it was a bucket or a foul. There are times when Q gets cute with the hook shot instead of going up strong and finishing through contact. It's on him to get stronger this offseason and develop another consistent move instead of going to his right. Working on passing out of the post will be critical not just to find open shooters, but to limit turnovers.
|
|
smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,300
|
Post by smokeyjack on Mar 22, 2021 8:32:38 GMT -5
Issue with both Cockburn and Q is that they are both truly dreadful passers. Illinois, like us, didn’t play inside out through the post, both offenses dead-ended in the post because neither big was a remotely refined passer. Getting touches in there is critical to keep the floor balanced and keep opponents guessing and adjusting, but you can’t flip the odds on the swapping 3s for 2s scenario unless your post is adept at kicking the ball back out to open perimeter players. If Q never learns this, he’ll severely limit our offense if the first option is to always look inside. Now, if the goal with infusing athletic wings is to defend like crazy on one end and alternate between playing transition and halfcourt dump and chase to Q with those athletes crashing the glass on other end, that will be effective against most teams but really not great basketball...certainly not great to watch. I think key will be recruiting guys who give Pat options. But unlike everyone else who seems in love with Q and his development, I see a guy who struggles to finish at the rim and struggles even more to draw-and-kick to perimeter. I realize this season we were often desperate for any offense, but Q needs to improve significantly to merit being focal point of offense in 3-point era. Not hating on Q, because he is much improved. But I do think they need to really work on his passing out of the post, ESPECIALLY if he intends to play in the league. Biggest difference between Q and Cockburn right now are in these 3 stats: FG%: Cockburn 65.4%, Wahab 59.1% TO%: Cockburn 13.2%, Wahab 18.9% FTR (not %, but rate of getting to the line): Cockburn 66.4, Wahab 52.6 You'd expect a guy like Yurt who was taking a fair bit of jumpers to not shoot 60%+ from the floor, but for guys with similar limited range like Q/Cockburn, Q's got to finish at a higher rate inside 2-3 feet with more regularity. Despite Illinois losing yesterday, Cockburn was basically automatic anytime he got a paint touch; it was a bucket or a foul. There are times when Q gets cute with the hook shot instead of going up strong and finishing through contact. It's on him to get stronger this offseason and develop another consistent move instead of going to his right. Working on passing out of the post will be critical not just to find open shooters, but to limit turnovers. Yep, your stats back up exactly what I thought I was seeing - too many point blank misses from Q and not enough of Lic’s meanery. Q needs to improve his efficiency to justify being focal point of offense. To be fair, Harris also needs to significantly improve on his drive-and-finds to Wahab. How many classic PG drive, draw and slip pass for a dunk to Q did we see from Dante? Definitely can count them on one hand. That element (facilitator) was almost completely missing from Dante’s game last season. I don’t think that’s completely unusual for a frosh who is asked to handle ball and defend other team’s primary. But at his size, he should be looking to find more than finish on his drives in my opinion. That would greatly improve Q’s efficiency...and Dante’s FG%
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Mar 22, 2021 8:40:35 GMT -5
Issue with both Cockburn and Q is that they are both truly dreadful passers. Illinois, like us, didn’t play inside out through the post, both offenses dead-ended in the post because neither big was a remotely refined passer. Getting touches in there is critical to keep the floor balanced and keep opponents guessing and adjusting, but you can’t flip the odds on the swapping 3s for 2s scenario unless your post is adept at kicking the ball back out to open perimeter players. If Q never learns this, he’ll severely limit our offense if the first option is to always look inside. Now, if the goal with infusing athletic wings is to defend like crazy on one end and alternate between playing transition and halfcourt dump and chase to Q with those athletes crashing the glass on other end, that will be effective against most teams but really not great basketball...certainly not great to watch. I think key will be recruiting guys who give Pat options. But unlike everyone else who seems in love with Q and his development, I see a guy who struggles to finish at the rim and struggles even more to draw-and-kick to perimeter. I realize this season we were often desperate for any offense, but Q needs to improve significantly to merit being focal point of offense in 3-point era. Not hating on Q, because he is much improved. But I do think they need to really work on his passing out of the post, ESPECIALLY if he intends to play in the league. Biggest difference between Q and Cockburn right now are in these 3 stats: FG%: Cockburn 65.4%, Wahab 59.1% TO%: Cockburn 13.2%, Wahab 18.9% FTR (not %, but rate of getting to the line): Cockburn 66.4, Wahab 52.6 You'd expect a guy like Yurt who was taking a fair bit of jumpers to not shoot 60%+ from the floor, but for guys with similar limited range like Q/Cockburn, Q's got to finish at a higher rate inside 2-3 feet with more regularity. Despite Illinois losing yesterday, Cockburn was basically automatic anytime he got a paint touch; it was a bucket or a foul. There are times when Q gets cute with the hook shot instead of going up strong and finishing through contact. It's on him to get stronger this offseason and develop another consistent move instead of going to his right. Working on passing out of the post will be critical not just to find open shooters, but to limit turnovers. Q's just not a big guy like Cockburn 7-0 285 lbs or Yurt7 7-0 264. He's only 6-11 237 lbs. (and he looks more 6-10 to me) Much smaller guy.
|
|
smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,300
|
Post by smokeyjack on Mar 22, 2021 8:44:56 GMT -5
Biggest difference between Q and Cockburn right now are in these 3 stats: FG%: Cockburn 65.4%, Wahab 59.1% TO%: Cockburn 13.2%, Wahab 18.9% FTR (not %, but rate of getting to the line): Cockburn 66.4, Wahab 52.6 You'd expect a guy like Yurt who was taking a fair bit of jumpers to not shoot 60%+ from the floor, but for guys with similar limited range like Q/Cockburn, Q's got to finish at a higher rate inside 2-3 feet with more regularity. Despite Illinois losing yesterday, Cockburn was basically automatic anytime he got a paint touch; it was a bucket or a foul. There are times when Q gets cute with the hook shot instead of going up strong and finishing through contact. It's on him to get stronger this offseason and develop another consistent move instead of going to his right. Working on passing out of the post will be critical not just to find open shooters, but to limit turnovers. Q's just not a big guy like Cockburn 7-0 285 lbs or Yurt7 7-0 264. He's only 6-11 237 lbs. (and he looks more 6-10 to me) Much smaller guy. Absolutely right...which is why it’s so important for him to improve his passing and shot. Kofi has the size to play his game to some degree in the pros. Q does not. Even in secondary leagues, his game won’t work unless he significantly improves his other skills. He’s not big enough to just be a back to the basket scorer and weak side shot blocker. I guess good news is he’s a very nice piece already with mountains of room for improvement on both ends.
|
|
|
Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 22, 2021 8:53:24 GMT -5
Q's just not a big guy like Cockburn 7-0 285 lbs or Yurt7 7-0 264. He's only 6-11 237 lbs. (and he looks more 6-10 to me) Much smaller guy. Absolutely right...which is why it’s so important for him to improve his passing and shot. Kofi has the size to play his game to some degree in the pros. Q does not. Even in secondary leagues, his game won’t work unless he significantly improves his other skills. He’s not big enough to just be a back to the basket scorer and weak side shot blocker. I guess good news is he’s a very nice piece already with mountains of room for improvement on both ends. I also think there's some room for him and just about everyone else on the team as well to grow in the strength department. If his calling card isn't going to be defensive versatility and mobility (and it doesn't look like he's going to be that kind of player), then this ends up being doubly important for him to improve.
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Mar 22, 2021 9:00:55 GMT -5
Absolutely right...which is why it’s so important for him to improve his passing and shot. Kofi has the size to play his game to some degree in the pros. Q does not. Even in secondary leagues, his game won’t work unless he significantly improves his other skills. He’s not big enough to just be a back to the basket scorer and weak side shot blocker. I guess good news is he’s a very nice piece already with mountains of room for improvement on both ends. I also think there's some room for him and just about everyone else on the team as well to grow in the strength department. If his calling card isn't going to be defensive versatility and mobility (and it doesn't look like he's going to be that kind of player), then this ends up being doubly important for him to improve. He actually seems like a pretty good athlete to me, and it's just his footwork on defending outside that is off. It really appears that before he came to the states that all he was doing was playing pick up games and had never played organized basketball or had any coaching. Given his level of athleticism, coordination and learning ability I see no reason for him not to excel at covering out the 3pt line, getting a midrange (maybe even a 3pt shot) and passing ability. It's just going to take time but he seems to be a prodigy and masters whatever he is being taught. Just can't overwhelm him with information/instruction all at one time.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Mar 22, 2021 9:07:31 GMT -5
One of Q's issue is that he always has to catch, set (put the ball the on the floor or gather him self), then make a play. Too much time for an opposing defense.
His inside shots aren't money. A few times his inside shots were there, and he just misses (in and out, off the rim, lack of rotation on the shot, etc.).
These are minor things he can work on at G-town. Two year's of eligibility remaining. He does hit his free throws. Over time he will refine his game. Keep mind what he was his freshmen year vs this year. It is a big difference. Now whether he becomes a Dirk Nowitski type is another story.
Q's weaknesses are not our biggest issues as a program. There are 4 other players on the court. And we lose 3 of our top 4 scorers (and rebounders) for next year.
Our current freshmen class has to show a lot more if we want to improve upon this year's success. Next year's freshmen will have to bring something to the table as well for us to have a chance.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,965
|
Post by EtomicB on Mar 22, 2021 9:43:56 GMT -5
Biggest difference between Q and Cockburn right now are in these 3 stats: FG%: Cockburn 65.4%, Wahab 59.1% TO%: Cockburn 13.2%, Wahab 18.9% FTR (not %, but rate of getting to the line): Cockburn 66.4, Wahab 52.6 You'd expect a guy like Yurt who was taking a fair bit of jumpers to not shoot 60%+ from the floor, but for guys with similar limited range like Q/Cockburn, Q's got to finish at a higher rate inside 2-3 feet with more regularity. Despite Illinois losing yesterday, Cockburn was basically automatic anytime he got a paint touch; it was a bucket or a foul. There are times when Q gets cute with the hook shot instead of going up strong and finishing through contact. It's on him to get stronger this offseason and develop another consistent move instead of going to his right. Working on passing out of the post will be critical not just to find open shooters, but to limit turnovers. Yep, your stats back up exactly what I thought I was seeing - too many point blank misses from Q and not enough of Lic’s meanery. Q needs to improve his efficiency to justify being focal point of offense. To be fair, Harris also needs to significantly improve on his drive-and-finds to Wahab. How many classic PG drive, draw and slip pass for a dunk to Q did we see from Dante? Definitely can count them on one hand. That element (facilitator) was almost completely missing from Dante’s game last season. I don’t think that’s completely unusual for a frosh who is asked to handle ball and defend other team’s primary. But at his size, he should be looking to find more than finish on his drives in my opinion. That would greatly improve Q’s efficiency...and Dante’s FG% Teams know Dante has an issue finishing at the rim so in scout sessions I guarantee opposing coaches are telling their bigs not to help off or try to stop his drive, instead just try to contest at the rim... There won't be a lot of chances for dump-offs until he proves he can finish consistently in my opinion...
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 22, 2021 9:45:33 GMT -5
If you have an old school big out there, he better be automatic down low and a significant defensive presence. You are basically trading high percentage twos for lower percentage threes. Your opponent always has a shot to come back quickly if they get hot.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,402
|
Post by SSHoya on Mar 22, 2021 9:50:28 GMT -5
If you have an old school big out there, he better be automatic down low and a significant defensive presence. You are basically trading high percentage twos for lower percentage threes. Your opponent always has a shot to come back quickly if they get hot. Luka Garza? Garza has certainly earned whatever opportunity comes to him: he shoots close to 70% around the rim, per analytics site BartTorvik.com, and averages an efficient 1.13 points per possession on post-ups, per Synergy. “ Also 1.9 blocks per game. www.si.com/college/2021/03/22/luka-garza-nba-future-iowa-march-madness-daily-cover
|
|