The current state of our Hoya basketball program

[EtomicB]

Aug 1, 2024 11:11:24 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Jul 31, 2024 21:24:24 GMT -5 hsaxon said:

Until proven otherwise, we are the second-worst program in the BE.

I will never understand what possesses someone to not post for two weeks, then come on and post 5 negative comments, most of which are basically the same thing, and then leave. Especially when things are trending up.

Here's the state of the program / coaching based on what I think we need to do to win. It's impossible to tease those two out.

STRATEGIC

• Evaluate Talent: This is an incomplete. Recruiting gurus like our freshman and transfer class, but we need to see how good they are. The original transfer class was somewhere between mediocre to poor, but it is tough to tell what was evaluation and what was ability to get. Cooley's record at Providence was strong with under the radar guys but sometimes there's a transition when you have more choices.
• Recruit: It's tough to give anything but an very positive grade for the future. The first transfer class was terrible, but he had little time and no NIL apparatus. The 2024 class is exceptional for a team coming off 2 wins in 2 seasons, and the current transfer class is good aside from the lack of big with the same weaknesses ... and that may be rectified on the freshman side. That freshman class plus a good transfer class given what we're coming off is VERY good sign. People expecting perfection here are setting the bar too high.
• NIL: We are never going to compete with the very top, but so far it does seem like we are a step above most peers and this will be a relative strength except against blue bloods and sugar daddy teams. Real concern is the football schools rerouting money to basketball but hopefully it works the other way around. This is a relative good versus other BE schools but a very big concern long term. So TBD.
• Develop Players: Cooley has a long track record of quality here, but last year saw very little progress by most players. I'm still positive on this point but I understand skepticism. I would say that Rowan and Fielder both improved to my eye, and quite a bit. Cook added a decent amount of offense.
• Retention: TBD. I know a lot of people will point to the straight numbers here but it's pretty clear that we retained 2 of the 3 players we really wanted to retain (and the third we apparently didn't want to pay though I'm sure we would have liked to keep Styles.) The reality is that the massive freshman class is the first challenge of retention Cooley will face. We will see.

Tactical

• Gameplan strategy, tactics and execution: Last year was an absolute fail here. The inability of the team to pick up basic defensive rotations is a real problem. The likely choice to have Cook contest almost nothing was suspect. Cooley's never been a Beilein type, but his teams have always seem well organized and cohesive. Last year was not. Cooley or the players? We will see.
• Motivation: Historically a Cooley strength, I wouldn't say the team quit, but they couldn't also seem to get basic things right. Capability or focus?
• In Game Coaching: Cooley was good at this last year. Good out of bounds plays, good management down the stretch. Given the limitations of the roster, I think this is a positive.

The reality is that the strategic elements seem to be shockingly strong for a team that has won 4 conference games in three years. The freshman recruiting is very, very strong, especially IF Julius commits. Despite the expectations, the transfer class is a B or so -- the downplaying of Peavy, Mack and the general move to a more athletic, defensive minded team is an important shift even if we didn't not get enough experience and age, especially a big. The NIL machine is not "Top 5" -- but it is clearly enough to compete.

What is left on the strategic side is whether these classes are actually as good as ranked and whether we can retain them. I think Cooley's personality is a plus on the latter, but so much of retention will be about playing time and NIL expectations. I think his history of development tells me that we don't have a ton to worry about there -- the fact that Heath and Massoud didn't improve is irrelevant.

So the big questions are:

• Retention
• How much of the defensive disaster last year was personnel and how much was coaching
• Can a young team play well enough to keep momentum going?

Rhetoric like your post is kind of pointless. There's much more talent on this team than last year. It's just going to be super young. The negativity in the fanbase actually hurts the team, because that's going to affect recruiting and retention. And with the talent we've grabbed, I think we're going to be pretty good if we can just retain guys long enough for them to develop.

Retaining is a two way street, as you pointed out above the staff kept 2 of the 3 players they really wanted to keep which is another way of saying they kicked the rest of the departures to the curb. Add in that Styles was let go(supposedly) because his price was too high which indicates to me they didn't want him badly either.

The portal is an alluring drug to staffs these days, and Cooley has made several statements about coaching on a year to year basis in the new portal world.

Bottom line to me is that Cooley & staff have to figure out a way to think longer term if they expect to retain kids longer.

[AltoSaxa]

Crawl .... walk .... run
We will have a competitive squad and, if retained, we have opportunity to build

[78HOYA78]

"if retained" If you really think about it, this new generation of ball players want the money, playing time and will do whatever it takes to get it. Rightly or wrongly loyalty is a thing of the past. I remember when Georgetown basketball was thought of as "family" but NIL, (COVID to some extent) and the transfer portal has changed the landscape and there is no going back. Coaches and programs that can adapt and foster more than just basketball will be successful.

[jctnhoya4ever]

The biggest problem is the players transfer see how many these guys come back. If 2-3 transfers will be same boat every season. The nil is killing Georgetown. How hard is this to understand. Don’t be negative this and that it’s facts Hoyas can’t keep players. Until proven otherwise you will never win consistently. Nit once in a while. If Cooley can keep the players from leaving after this season, then we have a chance if not it’s over.

[Gammo]

The current state is trending up and on the road back to winning!

We have so many tough minded winners now on the team. Our defense will be vastly improved. You can sense the change in the mindset of the team - great effort by the coaches, parents and the players!!!

[sweetness]

Watched the first episode of Malik Mack's video story on Youtube that was just released. He seems like an awesome, hard-working kid. Definitely got me even more excited for the start of the season.

[EtomicB]

Aug 3, 2024 8:28:53 GMT -5 sweetness said:

Watched the first episode of Malik Mack's video story on Youtube that was just released. He seems like an awesome, hard-working kid. Definitely got me even more excited for the start of the season.

[jwp91]

I think sometimes we may overlook the significance of adding MM. He was an elite PG in the portal. We definitely struggled at PG last year. Hopefully, he has an amazing year.

[hoyazeke]

Aug 2, 2024 11:53:30 GMT -5 jctnhoya4ever said:

The biggest problem is the players transfer see how many these guys come back. If 2-3 transfers will be same boat every season. The nil is killing Georgetown. How hard is this to understand. Don’t be negative this and that it’s facts Hoyas can’t keep players. Until proven otherwise you will never win consistently. Nit once in a while. If Cooley can keep the players from leaving after this season, then we have a chance if not it’s over.

This is effectively Cooley's 1st yr at GTown with NIL. How can you say we have a problem when we didn't lose 1 player that Cooley desired to keep. If after next yr there is another exodus like the Akinjo yr I'll 2nd your claim but Wayne, Rowan, Trez and Supreme weren't players Cooley was fighting to bring back.

[DanMcQ]

[sportsastroguy]

Aug 3, 2024 14:22:49 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Aug 3, 2024 8:28:53 GMT -5 sweetness said:

Watched the first episode of Malik Mack's video story on Youtube that was just released. He seems like an awesome, hard-working kid. Definitely got me even more excited for the start of the season.

thx. got a ton of respect for him. loved when he set the record straight on the maryland tatt. 2 great guards with multiple injuries in their career.... stay healthy fellas. i believe he and JB gonna turn up this year. a bunch of them will.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Aug 1, 2024 12:37:57 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Retaining is a two way street, as you pointed out above the staff kept 2 of the 3 players they really wanted to keep which is another way of saying they kicked the rest of the departures to the curb. Add in that Styles was let go(supposedly) because his price was too high which indicates to me they didn't want him badly either.

The portal is an alluring drug to staffs these days, and Cooley has made several statements about coaching on a year to year basis in the new portal world.

Bottom line to me is that Cooley & staff have to figure out a way to think longer term if they expect to retain kids longer.

Yes and no. I have no personal knowledge of this whatsoever, but some have said on here that it was the staff's decision not to keep Rowan in the fold. If that is true (and I have no idea), I would need to know the staff's reasoning before I could judge whether the "rest of the departures" were "kicked" to the curb. Same on Styles. If Styles made a reasonable NIL ask, then maybe letting him go was a mistake. If he was asking for an unrealistic sum that NC State was willing to provide but Georgetown wasn't, then good luck to him. I hardly call Styles leaving, likely for MORE money to play in his home state kicking him to the curb. (For all we know, maybe Georgetown DID offer him increased NIL, just not as much as he wanted.)

There is nothing about Cooley's actual approach to recruiting so far (which has focused a lot on younger players) that tells me he's looking at these things on a year-to-year basis. If Cooley has no plans/desire to keep much of the current roster in place for at least 2-3 years, then the current approach would make little sense. Cooley's past and history tells me he does want to keep many of our guys in place, but he also recognizes that until that manifests itself on the Court, that will be very tough.

We really need to resist the black/white, zero-sum type thinking on recruiting the portal v. high school. When all is said and done, I think most coaches will use a combination of the approaches, as that's what is most sensible. Restocking from the portal each year makes no sense and provides no stability, but similarly, you cannot recruit like it's 2005 anymore and expect to keep most of the roster in place for 4 years.

[jwp91]

From what I understand without getting specific, Rowan acted on and off the court in a way that was a net negative to the desired team environment from EC’s perspective. Thus, there was an involuntary parting of ways.


From what I understand, both Styles and Cook made NIL asks in excess of the Hoyas’ valuation of their contribution. With Styles, Peavy and McKenna’s development made him expendable at the requested compensation . Cook’s team wanted a payday that was unwarranted given his ability to contribute.

I don’t have an issue with EC’s actions with respect to any of the 3.

[SFHoya99]

Aug 4, 2024 19:20:48 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

From what I understand, both Styles and Cook made NIL asks in excess of the Hoyas’ valuation of their contribution. With Styles, Peavy and McKenna’s development made him expendable at the requested compensation . Cook’s team wanted a payday that was unwarranted given his ability to contribute.

The players are really no longer student-athletes, they are employees. They are getting paid. There is no more "pushing out" -- once it becomes a commercial transaction, unless the player and school want to write a longer term contract, everything is simply negotiation.

If you were a not very good players on a terrible team and you were a key reason, to go back and try and negotiate for more money is certainly ballsy, if nothing else. But it's not pushing someone out to expect them to perform to salary. Or to not want to give them a raise.

[EtomicB]

Aug 4, 2024 17:16:18 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Aug 1, 2024 12:37:57 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Retaining is a two way street, as you pointed out above the staff kept 2 of the 3 players they really wanted to keep which is another way of saying they kicked the rest of the departures to the curb. Add in that Styles was let go(supposedly) because his price was too high which indicates to me they didn't want him badly either.

The portal is an alluring drug to staffs these days, and Cooley has made several statements about coaching on a year to year basis in the new portal world.

Bottom line to me is that Cooley & staff have to figure out a way to think longer term if they expect to retain kids longer.

Yes and no. I have no personal knowledge of this whatsoever, but some have said on here that it was the staff's decision not to keep Rowan in the fold. If that is true (and I have no idea), I would need to know the staff's reasoning before I could judge whether the "rest of the departures" were "kicked" to the curb. Same on Styles. If Styles made a reasonable NIL ask, then maybe letting him go was a mistake. If he was asking for an unrealistic sum that NC State was willing to provide but Georgetown wasn't, then good luck to him. I hardly call Styles leaving, likely for MORE money to play in his home state kicking him to the curb. (For all we know, maybe Georgetown DID offer him increased NIL, just not as much as he wanted.)

There is nothing about Cooley's actual approach to recruiting so far (which has focused a lot on younger players) that tells me he's looking at these things on a year-to-year basis. If Cooley has no plans/desire to keep much of the current roster in place for at least 2-3 years, then the current approach would make little sense. Cooley's past and history tells me he does want to keep many of our guys in place, but he also recognizes that until that manifests itself on the Court, that will be very tough.

We really need to resist the black/white, zero-sum type thinking on recruiting the portal v. high school. When all is said and done, I think most coaches will use a combination of the approaches, as that's what is most sensible. Restocking from the portal each year makes no sense and provides no stability, but similarly, you cannot recruit like it's 2005 anymore and expect to keep most of the roster in place for 4 years.

You won't even say for sure it was a mistake if Styles made a reasonable offer to the program 2003?

I would have overpaid for Styles because he played well in his 1st year of real PT and it's hard to put a price on continuity & consistency, especially during a program rebuild. Plus he'd be at a minimum the 2nd best wing on the team(the best offensively)

It's hard for me to think it's a good thing for the staff to quibble over requests from rotation players on the team when they're offering big dollars to players outside of the team when recruiting out of the portal.

I can't say for sure that the staff has been focused on youngsters, I think they've tried to get the best players they could get to be honest and they've done a good job. Now comes the real work of molding a cohesive unit and then keeping it together.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Aug 5, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Aug 4, 2024 17:16:18 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Yes and no. I have no personal knowledge of this whatsoever, but some have said on here that it was the staff's decision not to keep Rowan in the fold. If that is true (and I have no idea), I would need to know the staff's reasoning before I could judge whether the "rest of the departures" were "kicked" to the curb. Same on Styles. If Styles made a reasonable NIL ask, then maybe letting him go was a mistake. If he was asking for an unrealistic sum that NC State was willing to provide but Georgetown wasn't, then good luck to him. I hardly call Styles leaving, likely for MORE money to play in his home state kicking him to the curb. (For all we know, maybe Georgetown DID offer him increased NIL, just not as much as he wanted.)

There is nothing about Cooley's actual approach to recruiting so far (which has focused a lot on younger players) that tells me he's looking at these things on a year-to-year basis. If Cooley has no plans/desire to keep much of the current roster in place for at least 2-3 years, then the current approach would make little sense. Cooley's past and history tells me he does want to keep many of our guys in place, but he also recognizes that until that manifests itself on the Court, that will be very tough.

We really need to resist the black/white, zero-sum type thinking on recruiting the portal v. high school. When all is said and done, I think most coaches will use a combination of the approaches, as that's what is most sensible. Restocking from the portal each year makes no sense and provides no stability, but similarly, you cannot recruit like it's 2005 anymore and expect to keep most of the roster in place for 4 years.

You won't even say for sure it was a mistake if Styles made a reasonable offer to the program 2003?

I would have overpaid for Styles because he played well in his 1st year of real PT and it's hard to put a price on continuity & consistency, especially during a program rebuild. Plus he'd be at a minimum the 2nd best wing on the team(the best offensively)

It's hard for me to think it's a good thing for the staff to quibble over requests from rotation players on the team when they're offering big dollars to players outside of the team when recruiting out of the portal.

I can't say for sure that the staff has been focused on youngsters, I think they've tried to get the best players they could get to be honest and they've done a good job. Now comes the real work of molding a cohesive unit and then keeping it together.

Payroll cohesion is going to be a big piece of this. You basically need a salary cap manager. You know what you have to spend and what slot values are for replacement players. What is the WAR (win above replacement) you can expect from an outside player? It is probably higher from retaining a player with a lower slot value than it is in spending big and bringing in an outsider.

How do you then also evaluate a kid whom you thought would jump in year two against a kid who has already jumped as an outsider? Is it because of true development or is it because of opportunity? Styles will be interesting to follow at NC State. He has yet to play meaningful minutes for a winner in college. A kid like Spears is a great example. He had great numbers on Duquesne & Georgetown. The problem is both teams were awful so those numbers were completely meaningless. He then goes to Florida state and plays a less prominent role as a non-starter but for an average team. He is now off to Texas San Antonio where he will probably put up great numbers on a trash squad and then he will leave college having played for four schools in four years. Probably not having a degree because those credits don't all transfer and will have to figure out a path through southeast asia or russia to make some money. I think Ed is on the right path. Find kids that really value Georgetown for what it is. Offer them a fair deal and focus on years 2 thru 4. If we turn over the roster again after this year, I'll still watch but I can't keep doing season tickets to watch a new batch of kids each year. I am most excited to watch Drew & Epps this year. I want to see how kids grow and with more talent around them, how they respond to different roles.

[SFHoya99]

Aug 5, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

3?

I would have overpaid for Styles

I have no idea how you can be certain about this when you don't know the ask nor do you know the budget or NIL allocations.

You've basically made an assumption about what the ask was ("quibble") that you have no real idea if it is true.

it's hard to put a price on continuity & consistency

Well, you have to. You have a limited budget. You can't simply overpay for subjective reasons.


There's an opportunity cost to every dollar spent.

[conshyhoya]

Aug 5, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Aug 4, 2024 17:16:18 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Yes and no. I have no personal knowledge of this whatsoever, but some have said on here that it was the staff's decision not to keep Rowan in the fold. If that is true (and I have no idea), I would need to know the staff's reasoning before I could judge whether the "rest of the departures" were "kicked" to the curb. Same on Styles. If Styles made a reasonable NIL ask, then maybe letting him go was a mistake. If he was asking for an unrealistic sum that NC State was willing to provide but Georgetown wasn't, then good luck to him. I hardly call Styles leaving, likely for MORE money to play in his home state kicking him to the curb. (For all we know, maybe Georgetown DID offer him increased NIL, just not as much as he wanted.)

There is nothing about Cooley's actual approach to recruiting so far (which has focused a lot on younger players) that tells me he's looking at these things on a year-to-year basis. If Cooley has no plans/desire to keep much of the current roster in place for at least 2-3 years, then the current approach would make little sense. Cooley's past and history tells me he does want to keep many of our guys in place, but he also recognizes that until that manifests itself on the Court, that will be very tough.

We really need to resist the black/white, zero-sum type thinking on recruiting the portal v. high school. When all is said and done, I think most coaches will use a combination of the approaches, as that's what is most sensible. Restocking from the portal each year makes no sense and provides no stability, but similarly, you cannot recruit like it's 2005 anymore and expect to keep most of the roster in place for 4 years.

You won't even say for sure it was a mistake if Styles made a reasonable offer to the program 2003?

I would have overpaid for Styles because he played well in his 1st year of real PT and it's hard to put a price on continuity & consistency, especially during a program rebuild. Plus he'd be at a minimum the 2nd best wing on the team(the best offensively)

It's hard for me to think it's a good thing for the staff to quibble over requests from rotation players on the team when they're offering big dollars to players outside of the team when recruiting out of the portal.

I can't say for sure that the staff has been focused on youngsters, I think they've tried to get the best players they could get to be honest and they've done a good job. Now comes the real work of molding a cohesive unit and then keeping it together.

Styles would have been a bench player. I liked Styles and I would have liked to keep him but Peavy is better. You say Styles is better offensively but I don't really think that is definitely the case. He was forced to be the second go to player and he still at times disappeared while Peavy wasn't a main option but still average over 10 a game. Also we have no idea what the young ones will bring so hard to say if he is better than say Drew M. He is more of an outside threat than Peavy and on this team that may be an issue which is one of the reasons I would have liked to retain him.

[sweetness]

There were too many games & moments where you forgot Styles was even out there, especially on the offensive end. I think Peavy will have a greater impact and is a better fit.

[EtomicB]

Aug 5, 2024 9:48:39 GMT -5 ColumbiaHeightsHoya said:

Aug 5, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

You won't even say for sure it was a mistake if Styles made a reasonable offer to the program 2003?

I would have overpaid for Styles because he played well in his 1st year of real PT and it's hard to put a price on continuity & consistency, especially during a program rebuild. Plus he'd be at a minimum the 2nd best wing on the team(the best offensively)

It's hard for me to think it's a good thing for the staff to quibble over requests from rotation players on the team when they're offering big dollars to players outside of the team when recruiting out of the portal.

I can't say for sure that the staff has been focused on youngsters, I think they've tried to get the best players they could get to be honest and they've done a good job. Now comes the real work of molding a cohesive unit and then keeping it together.

Payroll cohesion is going to be a big piece of this. You basically need a salary cap manager. You know what you have to spend and what slot values are for replacement players. What is the WAR (win above replacement) you can expect from an outside player? It is probably higher from retaining a player with a lower slot value than it is in spending big and bringing in an outsider.

How do you then also evaluate a kid whom you thought would jump in year two against a kid who has already jumped as an outsider? Is it because of true development or is it because of opportunity? Styles will be interesting to follow at NC State. He has yet to play meaningful minutes for a winner in college. A kid like Spears is a great example. He had great numbers on Duquesne & Georgetown. The problem is both teams were awful so those numbers were completely meaningless. He then goes to Florida state and plays a less prominent role as a non-starter but for an average team. He is now off to Texas San Antonio where he will probably put up great numbers on a trash squad and then he will leave college having played for four schools in four years. Probably not having a degree because those credits don't all transfer and will have to figure out a path through southeast asia or russia to make some money. I think Ed is on the right path. Find kids that really value Georgetown for what it is. Offer them a fair deal and focus on years 2 thru 4. If we turn over the roster again after this year, I'll still watch but I can't keep doing season tickets to watch a new batch of kids each year. I am most excited to watch Drew & Epps this year. I want to see how kids grow and with more talent around them, how they respond to different roles.

I agree 1000% on the 1st part of your post, value you the kids who have already said yes to Gtown over the possibilities in the portal.

I wouldn't compare Styles to Spears who played big minutes for Duquesne. Styles averaged 12 & 5, shot 36.8 from 3 in 4 attempts per game in BE play. Folks beating him up about "disappearing" are basically upset he wasn't a borderline BE player last season. Add in that Styles is a blender type player, he's not ball-dominant or a take over a game type player.

The staff should focus greatly on the kids they have, and give them more than a year to prove themselves individually & team wise because that's where Cooley has been most successful during his career.