prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 19, 2024 9:49:41 GMT -5
I’m not going to say that he did the Ewing blame-it-on-the-players-you-recruited routine, but no one wants to hear/read this excuse next year if we have another losing season: “Jon Rothstein: As you’ve had some time to reflect on things, what are the biggest reasons why you think last season went the way that it did? Ed Cooley: Well, coming in and taking over a new organization — we’re cleaning up a lot of things that just weren’t really efficient in the Big East. We had some really good players, but it didn’t work out well. I think you’ve got to flush that. You’ve got to get not just players who want to come to Georgetown, but players that can play for me in the style that we want to play. I think that was the biggest deficiency last year. We just didn’t have the personalities that matched. We had to upgrade our personnel.” |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jul 19, 2024 12:11:37 GMT -5
I personally spoke to his Dad….and I know that wherever he goes he wants to start from day 1. That was in question with Malik Mack. Not saying he would have ended up at Georgetown, but it was certainly a factor. Meh… Lewis will be an August 2025 frosh. How does he (and his dad) know what our roster, and possible playing time, will look like next year? If he wants to start from Day 1, then Acaden needs to wait to see how all of his favorite schools’ rosters shake out after March and April 2025. Regarding GU’s guards in Acaden’s position: - Peavy will not have eligibility. - if we have another losing season, does Epps stay for his last season and never smell the NCAAT? - if we have another losing season, and Mack has stated that he (1.) wants to win the BE regular season, (2.) wants a BET championship, and (3.) wants to go to the NCAAT, does Mack stay or look for greener pa$ture$ with a better chance to win championships and smell the post-season? - if Mulready doesn’t get pt, does he stay? Recent history at GU says no. That’s it. It’s a perfect playing time opportunity for Lewis. He would get as much playing time here as he could handle. No, just like we’ve read about other top targets that Cooley failed to reel in, it’s about going to a winning program, consistently reaching the NCAAT and showcasing your talent at the only truly important level… and NIL for most… I agree with PR....plus to add that whatever school that he chooses will be loaded with guards both coming in and returning that are probably higher rated that what GTown will have on its roster....the bluebloods lose some to the L but they always bring back one or two guards and recruit in one or two guards.....it was simply about wanting to play on a winning program and not believing GTown would be anywhere near a winning program next season. |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jul 19, 2024 12:15:21 GMT -5
I’m not going to say that he did the Ewing blame-it-on-the-players-you-recruited routine, but no one wants to hear/read this excuse next year if we have another losing season: “Jon Rothstein: As you’ve had some time to reflect on things, what are the biggest reasons why you think last season went the way that it did? Ed Cooley: Well, coming in and taking over a new organization — we’re cleaning up a lot of things that just weren’t really efficient in the Big East. We had some really good players, but it didn’t work out well. I think you’ve got to flush that. You’ve got to get not just players who want to come to Georgetown, but players that can play for me in the style that we want to play. I think that was the biggest deficiency last year. We just didn’t have the personalities that matched. We had to upgrade our personnel.” Ed doesn't have to win big this year but the product needs to at least be better. I need to see effort on D and competitive games against the top of the BE. I need to see us steal a few games that we shouldn't win on paper. I need to see a record over .500 and closer to .65 |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 19, 2024 15:26:28 GMT -5
it was simply about wanting to play on a winning program and not believing GTown would be anywhere near a winning program next season. I always find it odd that people always want to litigate these things down to a single driver, or a binary dynamic. It's almost like no one has made a decision before. It's not insane to think he wants a winning program AND to play, and he's willing to sacrifice certainty of playing time for the former, but not if the team is less likely to win. |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jul 20, 2024 6:37:15 GMT -5
it was simply about wanting to play on a winning program and not believing GTown would be anywhere near a winning program next season. I always find it odd that people always want to litigate these things down to a single driver, or a binary dynamic. It's almost like no one has made a decision before. It's not insane to think he wants a winning program AND to play, and he's willing to sacrifice certainty of playing time for the former, but not if the team is less likely to win. SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 20, 2024 6:49:43 GMT -5
I always find it odd that people always want to litigate these things down to a single driver, or a binary dynamic. It's almost like no one has made a decision before. It's not insane to think he wants a winning program AND to play, and he's willing to sacrifice certainty of playing time for the former, but not if the team is less likely to win. SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... My point was that with anyone, there's rarely a single factor that defines everything. He might be willing to sit the bench for a year if he goes to UConn or Duke or UNC, but not if he goes to a team that isn't a contender, like us. That's a very simple and likely situation. In fact, I'd bet 99%+ of choices come down to NLI money, PT, prestige of program / chances of winning, and then development history and relationship with the coach. Consider it all a sliding scale -- the Rutgers C took less money to go to the school he wanted, but that doesn't mean money wasn't important. ---- Also, the there's going to be a lot of 5 star freshmen -- especially point guards, and especially those towards the bottom of the 5 star list -- who come off the bench as freshmen behind a sophomore who played very well as a frosh. I'm not sure how many times we have to see the inherent variability because rankings and performance before we stop assuming every 5 * is immediately amazing. The idea that Monk would get more minutes than him as a freshman actually seems pretty likely to me. |
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Jul 20, 2024 11:39:05 GMT -5
I always find it odd that people always want to litigate these things down to a single driver, or a binary dynamic. It's almost like no one has made a decision before. It's not insane to think he wants a winning program AND to play, and he's willing to sacrifice certainty of playing time for the former, but not if the team is less likely to win. SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... His father said that was part of the issue. What’s the struggle here? Are you just refusing to believe the kids, father because your own theory provides more confirmation bias? |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jul 21, 2024 8:05:29 GMT -5
SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... His father said that was part of the issue. What’s the struggle here? Are you just refusing to believe the kids, father because your own theory provides more confirmation bias? Once a kid says no I really don't care anymore but no I just don't believe any excuse if it doesn't make sense. It's not a struggle. I simply stated my belief. I don't need anyone to agree. It's cool. |
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Jul 21, 2024 11:38:28 GMT -5
Meh… Lewis will be an August 2025 frosh. How does he (and his dad) know what our roster, and possible playing time, will look like next year? If he wants to start from Day 1, then Acaden needs to wait to see how all of his favorite schools’ rosters shake out after March and April 2025. Regarding GU’s guards in Acaden’s position: - Peavy will not have eligibility. - if we have another losing season, does Epps stay for his last season and never smell the NCAAT? - if we have another losing season, and Mack has stated that he (1.) wants to win the BE regular season, (2.) wants a BET championship, and (3.) wants to go to the NCAAT, does Mack stay or look for greener pa$ture$ with a better chance to win championships and smell the post-season? - if Mulready doesn’t get pt, does he stay? Recent history at GU says no. That’s it. It’s a perfect playing time opportunity for Lewis. He would get as much playing time here as he could handle. No, just like we’ve read about other top targets that Cooley failed to reel in, it’s about going to a winning program, consistently reaching the NCAAT and showcasing your talent at the only truly important level… and NIL for most… I agree with PR....plus to add that whatever school that he chooses will be loaded with guards both coming in and returning that are probably higher rated that what GTown will have on its roster....the bluebloods lose some to the L but they always bring back one or two guards and recruit in one or two guards.....it was simply about wanting to play on a winning program and not believing GTown would be anywhere near a winning program next season. there's something to be said about forging your own path; not being even in the final 8 after GU entered early tells me more than it being about the blue bloods; there's also something to be said about, ok, so what there are good guards there, but i am confident in myself. but, ultimately it's his decision. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 22, 2024 0:18:16 GMT -5
SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... His father said that was part of the issue. What’s the struggle here? Are you just refusing to believe the kids, father because your own theory provides more confirmation bias? Why can't it be that Acaden's father is being diplomatic? It can be both: the kid and his family love everything about GU, but the kid wants to go to a winning program. If it is, then Acaden's dad is not going to say that. As I wrote before, Lewis will be an August 2025 frosh. How does he (and his dad) know what any roster, and possible playing time, will look like next year? If he wants to start from Day 1, then Acaden needs to wait to see how all of his favorite schools’ rosters shake out after March/April 2025. Regarding GU’s guards in Acaden’s position: - Peavy: will not have eligibility. - Epps: if we have another losing season, does Epps stay for his last season and never smell the NCAAT? - Mack: if we have another losing season, and Mack has stated that he (1.) wants to win the BE regular season, (2.) wants a BET championship, and (3.) wants to go to the NCAAT, does Mack stay or look for greener pa$ture$ with a better chance to win championships and smell the post-season? -Mulready: if he doesn’t get pt, does he stay? Recent history at GU says no. That’s it. It’s a perfect playing time opportunity for Lewis. He would get as much playing time here as he could handle. As we’ve read about other top targets that Cooley failed to reel in, it’s about going to a winning program, consistently reaching the NCAAT and showcasing your talent at the only truly important level… plus nice NIL for most… Maybe he could transfer back home? |
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jul 24, 2024 8:28:48 GMT -5
I always find it odd that people always want to litigate these things down to a single driver, or a binary dynamic. It's almost like no one has made a decision before. It's not insane to think he wants a winning program AND to play, and he's willing to sacrifice certainty of playing time for the former, but not if the team is less likely to win. SF, Acaden has pretty much played his way to 5* status....you really believe that he thinks Malik is in his way for playing time? Malik will keep him from starting but not whatever 5* kid UNC/Duke/UK signs to go with him... More horrible takes on this board. Malik Mack will be a better and more impactful college player in the 2025-6 season than freshman Lewis. The idea that Acaden would walk in and take his starting spot on merit is idiotic. |
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hoyariv71
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Post by hoyariv71 on Jul 24, 2024 8:51:28 GMT -5
Agreed, maybe wrong but I think we will be happy with senior Epps and junior Mack as our backcourt
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 26, 2024 13:01:50 GMT -5
First, if you read it carefully, I used "has been" and "have recruited," as in the past. Cooley did use this approach when he went after Hunter Dickinson, the top (or one of the top) big transfer last year, and had to sign Supreme late. He learned from that failure and did a wider search this year. Then how is your point relevant? I was talking about what strategy we need to pursue in the future, and you said the problem was that Cooley was pursuing five stars with no plan B. How is that a problem if that is not what Cooley is doing now? I was identifying the problem in the past to see if something has changed, and then find the solution. This off-season has shown that Cooley has adapted and become more creative. The original transfer season is not necessarily completely irrelevant, but given the differences we've seen, surely we can acknowledge the timing and lack of NIL apparatus played a very big role? After the Thompson/Ewing debacle, the first season was going to be a huge challenge. You keep mentioning the lack of NIL apparatus. What is public knowledge is that we had enough NIL to go after Hunter D. and that Reed mentioned that around $3M was needed annually. That amount could have been used to build a solid team without 5*, just enough ballers to show a program in the right trajectory. A program situated where we are -- coming off 4-56 or whatever it is -- can hardly successfully pursue a strategy of 5 star recruiting. Furthermore, we are unlikely to compete long term as we do not have a competitive advantage in any way with the top recruiting schools in the country. Recruits do not care about academics on the whole, aside from one here or there. Georgetown is not a party school. We do not have the pedigree of the top programs, and we also haven't won in 20 years. We do have decent facilities but not better than others, and our home court is boring compared to Allen Fieldhouse or Cameron Indoor. Our long list of NBA players has been whittled down to almost nothing. … Pursuing a strategy relying on outpaying someone or on recruiting the elite players who can go where they want is a failing strategy. It's exactly what you just criticized Cooley for -- going too big and not getting the player. Disagree. Once the program can show a winning trajectory, then we will get the better players. Having a nice (not the best) NIL bag will be cherry on top. We will recruit and we will get transfers, but if the team is going to get back where we want to be, we will need to play well as a team and develop players. We do not have the budget to buy a team or get a group of 5 stars. Agree. We’re not competing against Duke and Kentucky for a group of 5 stars for the foreseeable future, and that is OK because that's not a championship-winning strategy. Where you and I differ is that I don't really think this last off-season is necessarily a big indicator of Cooley's ability, relative to other coaches, to retain. We don’t disagree because I agree that it’s too soon to tell. But, the fact is that, in two years and under different rules than when he was at Fairfield and Providence, he has retained 5 players out of 26 scholarship spots. Yes, we're going to lose some guys to higher money offers we don't think is worth it. Other guys who didn't get PT or don't see future PT, will likely go. A coach can certainly build a culture and basically re-recruit guys, but at some point, choices will be made by players and the staff in terms of retention. It's inevitable. The question is simply the percentage of people retained out of those you want to retain, and whether you pick the right guys. We can not judge the last off-season on the latter yet; that evaluation has yet to be written. As to the former, we did not lose many players we wanted to retain, and perhaps even none at the price tag that came along. Of course, we didn't retain a ton, either, so the whole year reeks of an incomplete in terms of Cooley's retention ability. I think if we improve and show promise on a young team, Cooley will be able to craft an excellent story of progress -- but the reality is that PT and NIL will trump that for many players. We'll see. If we cannot retain core players at some level of consistency, we simply will not ever improve. Agree, except (1) the part about losing only players Cooley didn't want to retain because the individual specifics of each departure are not public knowledge; and (2) you don't mention the winning factor (i.e., losing players who want to join a winning program) in retention, which I think it's a very important consideration, right there with playing time and NIL$. |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 26, 2024 14:39:10 GMT -5
What is public knowledge is...that Reed mentioned that around $3M was needed annually. What is the source for this? Much like the "Ed Cooley makes X million" claim, I've never seen an actual source on this one. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 26, 2024 15:06:02 GMT -5
After the Thompson/Ewing debacle, the first season was going to be a huge challenge. You keep mentioning the lack of NIL apparatus. What is public knowledge is that we had enough NIL to go after Hunter D. and that Reed mentioned that around $3M was needed annually. What is the source for this? Much like the "Ed Cooley makes X million" claim, I've never seen an actual source on this one. Which part? (1) Cooley went after Hunter. It would have been stupid to pursue Hunter for so long without having the required NIL to sign him. (2) Lee Reed mentioned the amount to donors. As to the "Ed Cooley makes X million" claim, I know you doubt the amount because nothing was shared by Georgetown and won't be public for a while. As someone you and I know said, "there are public documents which list his compensation but they are 1-2 years in arrears." Plus, it seems that you will not trust other people unless you see it for yourself, which I understand. While we wait for the required public info from GU, just take Fanta's word with a grain of salt: Quick Google search: “Fox Sports reported the Hoyas would be willing to pay Cooley upwards of $6 million per season — an annual raise of roughly 50% and the top salary in the conference by a wide margin — to come aboard.“ www.providencejournal.com/story/sports/college/2023/03/20/ed-cooley-providence-basketball-coach-accepts-georgetown-hoyas/70028885007/Fanta: amp.foxsports.com/stories/college-basketball/sources-georgetown-to-hire-providences-ed-cooley-as-head-coach Finally, here's PC's most recent public filing (Fiscal Year Ending June 2023):projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/50258932Under "Compensation", you will find that its highest-paid employee ("Key Employees and Officers") is none other than: Edward Cooley (Mens Bball Coach (Thru 3/23)): "Compensation: $4,698,511" + "Other: $165,876" Now, knowing that public information (regardless of any other private/inside info), the uniqueness of Cooley's jump to conference rival GU, the lack of a national search by JD again and GU willing to pay whatever was needed to get Cooley to jump, Cooley uprooting his family and his loyal staff's, and what was coming to him from Friar fans, then what do you think his GU contract looks like? You don't think he took a pay cut to join GU, right? Until we get the first GU public filing with Cooley listed, I hope this puts to rest any more of your questions re: Cooley's comp. P.S.: Here's GU's 2022: projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/530196603At #1, Patrick A Ewing (Men's Basketball Coach) $4,109,630 + $26,374 |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 26, 2024 15:48:37 GMT -5
Now, knowing that public information (regardless of any other private/inside info), the uniqueness of Cooley's jump to conference rival GU, the lack of a national search by JD again and willing to pay whatever was needed to get Cooley to jump, uprooting his family and his loyal staff's, and what was coming to him from Friar fans, what do you think his GU contract looks like? You don't think he took a pay cut to join GU, right? As to employment contracts, they vary across the board. At some schools, the base comp is very low (e.g. Hubert Davis' salary at UNC is $400,000) with a ton of supplemental payments from booster clubs and the like. At others, it is fixed across the term of the contract. Still at others, it starts small and escalates each year with the offer only met at the conclusion. In John Thompson's case, he took a much smaller contract in exchange for years of deferred comp after he left. Without an analysis of the contract an the source of the compensation, I don't see how we can guess. I do not and would have not have any access to the details on this--in fact, unless someone in one of the four groups below, they're simply guessing: 1. The President's Office 2. Office of the University Counsel 3. Ed Cooley 4. Ed Cooley's agent If any one of these four wanted to tell John Fanta what they are paying, that's their call, but we haven't heard much about it since. We can presume, perhaps. that Dan Hurley's contract is above anything considered by Georgetown in 2023. www.courant.com/2024/07/08/dan-hurley-signs-new-contract-to-remain-uconn-mens-basketball-coach-through-2029-30-season/ |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 26, 2024 15:55:27 GMT -5
Now, knowing that public information (regardless of any other private/inside info), the uniqueness of Cooley's jump to conference rival GU, the lack of a national search by JD again and willing to pay whatever was needed to get Cooley to jump, uprooting his family and his loyal staff's, and what was coming to him from Friar fans, what do you think his GU contract looks like? You don't think he took a pay cut to join GU, right? As to employment contracts, they vary across the board. At some schools, the base comp is very low (e.g. Hubert Davis' salary at UNC is $400,000) with a ton of supplemental payments from booster clubs and the like. At others, it is fixed across the term of the contract. Still at others, it starts small and escalates each year with the offer only met at the conclusion. In John Thompson's case, he took a much smaller contract in exchange for years of deferred comp after he left. Without an analysis of the contract an the source of the compensation, I don't see how we can guess. I do not and would have not have any access to the details on this--in fact, unless someone in one of the four groups below, they're simply guessing: 1. The President's Office 2. Office of the University Counsel 3. Ed Cooley 4. Ed Cooley's agent If any one of these four wanted to tell John Fanta what they are paying, that's their call, but we haven't heard much about it since. We can presume, perhaps. that Dan Hurley's contract is above anything considered by Georgetown in 2023. www.courant.com/2024/07/08/dan-hurley-signs-new-contract-to-remain-uconn-mens-basketball-coach-through-2029-30-season/First, Cooley is not in Hurley's league.  That article says Hurley has a 6-yr/$50M contract. That's nowhere near Cooley's. Second, the rest of your post is obvious information. Someone could've told Fanta and/or others. Third, you didn't answer what level of compensation you think took for Cooley to make the jump to GU. Surely, you don't think he took a pay cut? Surely, you think he's making more than Pat, right? According to that 2023 filing, Cooley made $4.86M+. Do you think an additional $1M with escalators was enough? |
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jackofjoy
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Post by jackofjoy on Jul 26, 2024 16:04:13 GMT -5
good god - when does the season start already - then at least we can argue over how many wins per potentially fictional Fanta bucks millions Cooley needs to make people happy
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 26, 2024 16:07:55 GMT -5
Goodman's version:
That $4.5M was close. Good for Goodman...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 26, 2024 16:08:46 GMT -5
good god - when does the season start already - then at least we can argue over how many wins per potentially fictional Fanta bucks millions Cooley needs to make people happy "...a Seton Hall student yelled at Cooley that the coach was being paid “$7 million per win,” in reference to the coach’s reported $35 million contract signed in the offseason. Cooley then yelled back with a smile, “You know what, I’m rich as a motherf---er. I’m rich as s---.”" |
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That article says Hurley has a 6-yr/$50M contract. That's nowhere near Cooley's.