rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Sept 5, 2020 12:23:51 GMT -5
Like another poster pointed out, not everyone was worthy of a GU offer. JT has his own method and formula and stuck to it until the latter years. Yeah plenty of players wanted offers, but hindsight is 20/20 and just because you want something doesn’t mean that you should get it or that you deserve it. I just don’t understand why we’re looking at these missed connections through the lens of misses, when a)it’s impossible to know at this juncture and b) they were just missed connections - it happens. If the Hill story is true, I’m assuming Hill wasn’t the only recruit JT did that with and for him to get offended, regardless of his perceived level of education, probably had to do with his ego. I don’t know why people are acting like it’s justified to be upset by something like that and that he deserved special treatment - oh wait just kidding I do because this is Hoyatalk the land of entitles fans, many of whom like to fan privilege and who are always looking for the “negatives”. Also a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks who are viewing things in hindsight. So what JT didn’t recruit every player? I mean newsflash he didn’t rock with just any type of person because he had standards. The kids he chose for his program, the reasons went beyond basketball... Rock, I'm one of the ones who help began this part of the thread about Coach Thompson letting go of talent answering another persons question about his recruitment during the 80's. If you remember, I started with "I was aroud during that time" so no, it was not hindsight for me. I lived through it. I don't know how old or young you are but I lived through it. I also said I was very frustrated. Please go back and read it. I am almost certain those of us speaking on it, were around during those times so we all experienced it. It was frustrating just like today the Hoyas don't land locals. Except this is ten times worst because the locals were ten times more talented back then than they are today. I am not trying to be negative, I am simply being factual as we need to know both the good and bad. I am hoping Patrick and any other future coaches can learn from this so we as fan won't be on future boards complaining about getting low level talent like we are doing today. Furthermore, we should be a blue blood school from a recruiting standpoint and that's a fact! Hindsight referring to how those players turned out as basketball players. That’s the hindsight I meant. And maybe you missed my point? You’re seemingly frustrated because you’re operating under the assumption that the goal is to get every top player sight unseen, without regards to anything else but their basketball game. I don’t think there is anything For Ewing to learn from what you’re describing, if anything this past week and season should’ve reminded you that fit is much more important than talent alone when talent doesn’t fit. Again, it’s too simple to look back and be like “we should’ve just let that HOFer come here”. Okay, what if JT didn’t like that players attitude or work ethic? Again, (Amateur)sports are much bigger than just wins and losses. I can definitely understand your frustrations, but again I think most of it is because you’re assuming the central imperative is to get all the best players regardless of the type of person they were or how they’d fit into the team. This week has made it painfully obvious that JT was more interested in the person than the player for the most part. You can definitely disagree with that ideology, but it is pretty much the only reason someone like me is a Hoya fan. When all my friends always ask me how I can be the biggest Hoya fan they know and I didn’t even go to GU, I’ve realized over the years and have told them about the culture and tradition that go beyond just wins and losses. Sure we don’t have the resources and commitment to developing a super robust and organized alumni network so folks are a little scattered, but the sports experience at GU goes beyond the scoreboard and that’s an important thing for the development of young men and women. Just look at what Sgarlata is preaching - it’s the same message. And the same reason GU was on my list till the end even though they had only won 5 games in the previous 5 years before I was being recruited (different sport). Again I understand your points and they’re valid but I don’t agree with the logic. Hence describing them as misses connections instead of assuming they were missed and would’ve obviously been fits for the program back then. |
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Sept 5, 2020 12:30:03 GMT -5
This is a celebration of Coach's life.
If you look at all of the tributes recently about Coach, who is really talking about what could have been? If anything they think how much they would need Coach's voice at a time in our society where things are not great right now. Why? They marvel at the results. What he produced. Coach was speaking up, walking out, protesting when it wasn't cool.
When you go to a funeral, we celebrate the good and greatness of a person's life.
This thread is the celebration of life of a man who did more than most on this planet and influenced the lives of men AND women, athletes and non-athletes.
Please, let's keep that in perspective.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 12:30:51 GMT -5
Rock, I'm one of the ones who help began this part of the thread about Coach Thompson letting go of talent answering another persons question about his recruitment during the 80's. If you remember, I started with "I was aroud during that time" so no, it was not hindsight for me. I lived through it. I don't know how old or young you are but I lived through it. I also said I was very frustrated. Please go back and read it. I am almost certain those of us speaking on it, were around during those times so we all experienced it. It was frustrating just like today the Hoyas don't land locals. Except this is ten times worst because the locals were ten times more talented back then than they are today. I am not trying to be negative, I am simply being factual as we need to know both the good and bad. I am hoping Patrick and any other future coaches can learn from this so we as fan won't be on future boards complaining about getting low level talent like we are doing today. Furthermore, we should be a blue blood school from a recruiting standpoint and that's a fact! Hindsight referring to how those players turned out as basketball players. That’s the hindsight I meant. Okay, I feel you Rock but believe me, these kids were very very good. The talent was there in high school. I mean they were All Americans. We're talking about Grant Hill, Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott, Waymon Tisdale and there were countless others who were lighting it up in HS. |
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Sept 5, 2020 12:35:49 GMT -5
Hindsight referring to how those players turned out as basketball players. That’s the hindsight I meant. Okay, I feel you Rock but believe me, these kids were very very good. The talent was there in high school. I mean they were All Americans. We're talking about Grant Hill, Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott, Waymon Tisdale and there were countless others who were lighting it up in HS. Understood. They weren’t the only ones though. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 12:37:37 GMT -5
Okay, I feel you Rock but believe me, these kids were very very good. The talent was there in high school. I mean they were All Americans. We're talking about Grant Hill, Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott, Waymon Tisdale and there were countless others who were lighting it up in HS. Understood. They weren’t the only ones though. Hey Rock are you from the DC area? |
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Sept 5, 2020 12:45:17 GMT -5
Understood. They weren’t the only ones though. Hey Rock are you from the DC area? Part of my family, but I only went to school here for a couple of years then for four years in high school. My brother went to GU, as well as several other relatives. |
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hoya95
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Post by hoya95 on Sept 5, 2020 12:45:45 GMT -5
Wonderful. We’re probably going to have to lock up the John Thompson memorial thread due to 30 year old recruiting fights. Or at least get a moderator warning. I really hoped we’d make it to the funeral first. Just a note: recruiting is an inexact science dropped into the middle of a very sleazy business. Nothing is ever as simple as we think it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 13:11:09 GMT -5
Hey Rock are you from the DC area? Part of my family, but I only went to school here for a couple of years then for four years in high school. My brother went to GU, as well as several other relatives. Oh okay, cool. |
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Sept 5, 2020 14:55:00 GMT -5
Wonderful. We’re probably going to have to lock up the John Thompson memorial thread due to 30 year old recruiting fights. Or at least get a moderator warning. I really hoped we’d make it to the funeral first. Just a note: recruiting is an inexact science dropped into the middle of a very sleazy business. Nothing is ever as simple as we think it is. Part of my family, but I only went to school here for a couple of years then for four years in high school. My brother went to GU, as well as several other relatives. Oh okay, cool. Nobody is fighting, we’re having a thoughtful discussion. Your comment needs a warning if anything. You’re not a mod so stick to not being a mod. If you have something to add about how our culture of principle and integrity compares to other programs or how it’s perceived nationally, then by all means add to the discussion. We have enough drama around these parts without you sticking your nose into someone else’s dialogue. No need to be emotional about everything, I’m not sure where you’re seeing fighting. These parts are literally made for discussion. I won’t speak for who I was responding to, but I didn’t get the sense that the dialogue had become disrespectful, although I may have told the line with one sentence. Overall, we’re sharing our perspectives with each other. People are fundamentally different and don’t always agree, ya know. That isn’t inherently a bad thing. |
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 5, 2020 16:48:56 GMT -5
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 5, 2020 17:10:40 GMT -5
You know who else I believe wanted to go to Georgetown? Sherman Douglas. I think I remembered hearing he wanted to go to Georgetown. Also remember the guard we had Charles Smith? Well Charles Smith had a younger brother who people use to say he was AI before AI. This guy wasn't as athletic as AI but he was a scorer and could score in bunches. The kid's name was Curt Smith. This guy was a McDonalds All American and from my understanding he was an MVP for one of the McDonald's all American game. He played against some future NBAers and future hall of famers and he dominated them and got the MVP if I am not mistaken. He wanted to go to Georgetown but nope, he didn't get in either. I believe people in the DC area took offense to JT not recruiting Sherman. I started watching college hoops his final season at Syracuse and if I'm not mistaken Hoya fans were satisfied that JT's teams pretty much owned the Syracuse teams Sherman played on. As for Curt Smith I think you are confusing The Cap Classic for the McDAA game. Smith was a playground legend and one of the best scorers to ever suit up for the Kenner League but he never amounted to much outside of that. I think grades were also an issue with him. Perhaps if his academics had been better he could have been really something in college. Or maybe his style wouldn't have translated to college regardless. |
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 5, 2020 17:12:06 GMT -5
Found 10 classic Georgetown games from the John Thompson era on Youtube last night. I put the links on the video page. Been noticing those as well and been adding them to my YouTube playlist. It seems that more and more of college basketball games are being uploaded. |
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 5, 2020 17:14:52 GMT -5
Doc and Smokin' Al were perfect co-hosts for JT's radio show. Also give Doc props for being the first person in the media to refer to the Washington Football Team as something else other than their official name. Always called them The Burgundy and Gold even though he played for the franchise. He was ahead of his time. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 17:32:57 GMT -5
You know who else I believe wanted to go to Georgetown? Sherman Douglas. I think I remembered hearing he wanted to go to Georgetown. Also remember the guard we had Charles Smith? Well Charles Smith had a younger brother who people use to say he was AI before AI. This guy wasn't as athletic as AI but he was a scorer and could score in bunches. The kid's name was Curt Smith. This guy was a McDonalds All American and from my understanding he was an MVP for one of the McDonald's all American game. He played against some future NBAers and future hall of famers and he dominated them and got the MVP if I am not mistaken. He wanted to go to Georgetown but nope, he didn't get in either. I believe people in the DC area took offense to JT not recruiting Sherman. I started watching college hoops his final season at Syracuse and if I'm not mistaken Hoya fans were satisfied that JT's teams pretty much owned the Syracuse teams Sherman played on. As for Curt Smith I think you are confusing The Cap Classic for the McDAA game. Smith was a playground legend and one of the best scorers to ever suit up for the Kenner League but he never amounted to much outside of that. I think grades were also an issue with him. Perhaps if his academics had been better he could have been really something in college. Or maybe his style wouldn't have translated to college regardless. Hi MCI, I appreciate your clarity. It certainly was the Capital Classic and not the McDonald's All American game. However, I believe that was the McDonald's game of it's day as it had a lot of stars on the rosters such as Kenny Anderson, George Lynch, Monty Williams, Michael Tate, Travis Ford, Malcolm Mackey etc. The local All Americans played against the national All Americans so it's just the same as the McDonald's All American game. Curt Smith won the game for the locals. Also, he might not have had the grades to get into GU. You may be right about that as well. However, Curt did go on to be a star for a community college in Compton and later transferred to Drake University where he was the star on that team if I remember it correctly. I am going to find a documentary on Youtube of Curt Smith and post it. But here is the Youtube link of the Capital Classic game where Curt won it for the locals and he was responsible for checking Kenny Anderson. Also I am posting another link of him as one ten greatest streetball legends of all time. www.legendssf.com/blogs/legends-blog/top-10-streetball-players-ever |
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 5, 2020 17:42:37 GMT -5
A question for the Board. Listening to the many JT tributes from former college greats and NBA players one thing stuck out. So many of these players said they loved the Hoyas growing up and would love to have played for JT. Yet none of them did. I'm sure there were probably circumstances preventing their successful recruitment but it is very frustrating to hear guys like Grant Hill say how they worshiped Hoya basketball yet wound up elsewhere. Any idea why this happened? LOL. Why do you think I made the Green Eggs & Ham reference about G. Hill and mentioned how I could not watch Hill's his tribute on TNT? May have missed my line about how he should have been a Hoya. Grant Hill indeed was a huge fan of Georgetown. He went to every home game with his dad while growing up. He idolized former Hoya Michael Jackson who graduated eight years earlier from the same high school Grant went to (South Lakes). His number he wore in high school was 32 in tribute to Jackson who wore the same number. When he went to Duke he couldn't wear 32 because Christian Laettner was wearing that number. So Grant went with 33 which was Ewing's number. When he was introduced to the Hall of Fame Grant, who kept wearing 33 throughout his pro career, asked Ewing to be one of the three Hall of Famers to be on stage for that introduction. His mom wanted him to go to Georgetown. The TNT tribute even added some details about how deep his devotion to the Hoyas that I wasn't even aware of. By all measures Hill should have picked Georgwtown. Why it didn't happen is attributed to one fateful meeting. Thompson and his academic advisor Mary Fenlon made the trip to the Hill's home for the official visit. And during that meeting, in front of his parents, Fenlon pulled out some book or text and asked Grant to read from it in order to gauge his reading level. This was typical of how JT did things, this was why Fenlon often accompanied him on recruiting visits; not just to talk about the educational opportunities at Georgetown but to also administer these type of tests. One would think SAT and other measurements would be good enough but Thompson and or Fenlon were a little quirky on this front. That was the way they did things and maybe for most of the players and families of players this was acceptable. As unorthodox as that approach was it may have been effective in determining the education level of previous recruits from rougher backgrounds. To the Hills though, from all reports, it was insulting. And I don't blame them. Grant was a very good student from a very good high school. Both of his parents were not only college educated but went to elite universities and were high profile professionals. There is something about being able to read a room, a situation and I suppose JT and Fenlon failed when it came to this meeting. That pretty much ended Georgetown's chances. When I first learned of the story I was surprised and appalled. I wondered just how deeply JT and Fenlon offended the Hills and then made up a worst case scenario in which the book Grant was given to read from was Green Eggs & Ham. Just a joke to hide my ever-lasting pain. There have been a couple on the board over the years who have questioned or disputed the alidity of the story about this meeting but there have been credible sources who back this version of what went down including Grant Hill himself who confirmed it in a Sunday Parade interview. But as the years have gone by he doesn't acknowledge it anymore. Clearly he put it behind him and doesn't hold onto any bitterness. Why would he? Things worked out great for him at Duke and beyond. Fascinating enough ESPN U replayed the Duke at Georgetown game in December 1990 for the Big East-ACC Challenge a few days ago. It was very early in Hill’s Duke career and there he was back in the arena he had often visited to watch his favorite team which was now the team he was playing against. What I had forgotten was that game was the second of a double header . The first, in the same arena, matched St. John’s against Georgia Tech. Georgia Tech happened to have a second year super star in Kenny Anderson who was also seen by many as a Georgetown lock during his high school days. Although Anderson grew up in NYC, he was a Hoya fanatic. He even wore the Georgetown jacket between classes in high school. Georgetown was his dream school. Why didn’t end up at GU? Well, it wasn’t as if the Hoyas were covered as extensively as the Redskins so details were hard to come by but enough reports, from media both in Washington and New York, indicated that John Thompson did not show enough love. Despite some very big fish he reeled in, Thompson’s recruiting style wasn’t atypical. Craig Esherick once pointed out that it was often normal for JT to wait for the recruits to show interest in Georgetown before he started showing interest in them. Considering so many stories I have heard by former great college players who stated they were disappointed Georgetown never recruited them this sounds about right. But by all accounts Kenny did let it be known he was interested in Georgetown. Thompson never went to New York for an official visit with him though. If I’m not mistaken he didn’t even give Kenny a phone call. The question has always been why this was the case. There was talk that Thompson was too busy as the coach for Team USA in the upcoming Olympics. But what kind of excuse is that? He still had responsibilities for the Georgetown program. At the very least he could have given a phone call. Then there was the line JT said in response to such questions in which he claimed he doesn’t need “hamburger All-Americans” to bring up the ball….which was his way of saying he doesn’t need Five Star/McDonald All American level guards for his teams. That attitude has been one that characterized Thompson for much of his career. There are those who would insist that Thompson only really went all-out in recruiting when the targets were big men. But more than anything it was kinda known that Thompson didn’t like recruiting at all. Most coaches didn’t but Thompson REALLY hated it. This explained some of the discrepancy of talent even among the top nine or ten guys on his team. Thompson’s efforts in recruiting really went south after winning a championship. Yes, he will still bring in some elite talent after that but a few have suggested that he proved himself with the title in 1984 and no longer felt the need to prove himself further by working hard on the recruiting trail. Gary Williams of Maryland went through a similar phase after winning his single title. During Alonzo Mourning’s sophomore season when he was teamed with Mutombo, Mark Tillmon and Dwayne Bryant in the starting lineup, Thomas Boswell wrote a column that the one thing holding the Hoyas back was not having the type of multi-purpose, 6-6 small forward that he stated every other team seemed to have. The Michael Tate thing didn’t work out. At times Thompson started Sam Jefferson at the three. Jefferson had no skills to play that spot; he was a big man although a thin one. Grant Hill could have definitely filled that need and then some the following season. He could have in theory been on a team alongside side the M&M Boys as well as Kenny Anderson. The person playing the two-spot could have been me and the Hoyas could have won a title with such a lineup. Instead in that season the Hoyas had Joey Brown and Robert Churchwell. No offense to those guys; they played hard and gave all they had for four years each. But they weren’t near the level of Anderson and Hill. One could argue that the pendulum swung back towards the ACC for good when Duke and Laettner defeated Georgetown and Mourning in the 1989 Regional Finals at the Meadowlands. But in my opinion even more decisive was the Big East losing out on guys like Kenny and Grant, both of whom could have been, should have been, Hoyas. Undoubtedly JT built a great legacy, but his mistakes on the recruiting trail (or not even walking down the trail) possibly limited even much larger on-court success. If he had retained a hunger after winning a championship in the way that Coach K has or Jim Calhoun did, he could have OWNED college basketball considering his status in the African American community. I’m thinking about four titles or more. If Hill's feelings were hurt from reading a book, then he would not have lasted the season with Pops and Zo yelling MF at him all the time. Let's face it Grant Hill was a rich kid who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and famous parents. And he was kind of soft, though athletic, smart and skilled. He was a finesse guy. Long story short if Hill had come to Georgetown he would have had his feelings hurt multiple times and likely would have transferred out to Duke anyway. I couldn't see him lasting 4 years with his personality and background. It just wasn't a good fit, and Pops was able to weed that out right away. Pops has always stated he wanted to take kids from poor, disadvantaged background, give them opportunities that they wouldn't have to go to a school the caliber of Georgetown and turn them into men. And Pops stayed pretty consistent to those values in his recruiting. If you look at the white kid Brian Kelly, even he was working construction in the mornings to pay for his classes in the evenings in JUCO. Often times fit is the most important thing, and Grant Hill probably made the right choice for him in going to a culture at Duke that was more conducive to his upbringing and financial status. Kendall Gill is another example of a rich kid from a rich suburb outside of Chicago (Olympia Fields) around the same time and he just couldn't adapt to the culture at the Charlotte Hornets where he just didn't fit in with Mugsy, Zo and LJ. Ended up crying and suffering depression and was traded away. Pops knew what he was doing, the idea that him and Fenlon were just clueless and out of touch actually questions his intelligence which given his accomplishments seems incorrect. |
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 5, 2020 17:45:38 GMT -5
You know who else I believe wanted to go to Georgetown? Sherman Douglas. I think I remembered hearing he wanted to go to Georgetown. Also remember the guard we had Charles Smith? Well Charles Smith had a younger brother who people use to say he was AI before AI. This guy wasn't as athletic as AI but he was a scorer and could score in bunches. The kid's name was Curt Smith. This guy was a McDonalds All American and from my understanding he was an MVP for one of the McDonald's all American game. He played against some future NBAers and future hall of famers and he dominated them and got the MVP if I am not mistaken. He wanted to go to Georgetown but nope, he didn't get in either. I believe people in the DC area took offense to JT not recruiting Sherman. I started watching college hoops his final season at Syracuse and if I'm not mistaken Hoya fans were satisfied that JT's teams pretty much owned the Syracuse teams Sherman played on. As for Curt Smith I think you are confusing The Cap Classic for the McDAA game. Smith was a playground legend and one of the best scorers to ever suit up for the Kenner League but he never amounted to much outside of that. I think grades were also an issue with him. Perhaps if his academics had been better he could have been really something in college. Or maybe his style wouldn't have translated to college regardless. Sherman wasn't a good fit. Short,not very good laterally and not very athletic. The Syracuse zone helped mask his defensive deficiencies. I don't think Sherman was what Pops was looking for defensively from a Hoyas Guard. |
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 5, 2020 17:48:58 GMT -5
I was around during those days and I was so frustrated that we didn't land a lot of top stars in spite of the fact that these guys wanted to come to Georgetown. Some of these guys were so upset that they were not able to come to Georgetown. Let me throw out some names of the guys that were superstars in college who wanted to come to Georgetown that I know of: Grant Hill Waymon Tisdale Dennis Scott Kenny Anderson Stephon Marbury (I think but not certain) Damn near everybody at Dematha-especially Jerrod Mustaf These are the guys I know for sure. I'm pretty sure there were plenty of more that I don't know of and of some I've forgotten. The Dematha situation is very very interesting. Coach Thompson was a great man but one of his flaws, in my honest opinion, is that he was vindictive. Maybe that may be too harsh of a word "vindictive" but anyways, he held a grudge against Dematha High School and he refused to recruit Dematha kids. To me it hurt us so badly with Dematha that lasted years until JTIII came along and recruited A Freeman. Coach Thompson absolutely refused to recruit from Dematha because they didn't hire him to coach their team or something strange like that. Coach Thompson also refused to schedule to play Maryland University for years. To me that hurt us too. The reason being is because I think it isolated us for years high school kids in the area. I understand you can only get so many kids on the roster but compared to those college superstars I mentioned, the players we had could not even compare to those guys position for position. We all know about how great Grant Hill was. Waymon Tisdale was like one of the all time scoring leaders in college basketball from what I can remember. Kenny Anderson, oh my god was so good. Jerrod Mustaf was a beast. Georgetown with all it's glory, I can say has made a lot of mistakes over the years that has gotten us to where we are today with recruiting the best players in my opinion. Don't forget Chris Jackson and Billy Owens, both of whom made claims that they waited on Hoya offers that never came. Would they have gone to Georgetown if the offers were made? can't say for sure but I wouldn't have bet against it. Shaq was so hurt and upset that he didn't get a Georgetown offer that he tried to punish former Hoya big men for his first years in the NBA (Steve Francis also had this attitude towards former Georgetown players in the NBA for the same reason). But in Thompson's defense he already had Alonzo and Dikembe in the fold. There was no room for Shaq. Also Corliss Williamson was seen as a heavy Georgetown lean supposedly by a few who knew him. Can't confirm that but what can be confirmed is that no offer came from Big John who was concentrating on Othella and apparently Duane Spencer. Shaq was a Dale Brown lock since the first time they met in Germany when Shaq was 14. I don't think he really had any plans of coming to the Hoyas was just upset that he didn't get an offer (even if he was an LSU lock) And alot of that other stuff is just motivation. Like Michael Jordan making up fake stuff about LaBradford Smith just to get motivation to beat him. |
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 5, 2020 17:54:45 GMT -5
Best and most accurate post ever made on Georgetown’s recruiting misses in the 80s and early 90s. Owning college basketball is absolutely correct. A couple more tidbits. Waymon Tisdale’s time at OU overlapped with Ewing’s at GU - 1982-1985. Saw an interview with Tisdale in the late 80s saying he really wanted to get an GU ofer, but I think Ewing plus a healthy Ralph Dalton is why Tisdale wasn’t recruited. (We forget how good Dalton could have been without his injury, which was devastating.) OU played Tisdale at center when he had PF size. Imagine a frontline combo of Tisdale and Ewing. I remember being McDonough Gym in the summer of either 1985 or 1986 watching Flint Hill play someone. JT and Esh were in the rafters watching/scouting Dennis Scott and Sam Jefferson. Scott was shooting lights out and I barely remember Jefferson was even there. When I heard we signed Jefferson and not Scott I was incredulous. Like another poster pointed out, not everyone was worthy of a GU offer. JT has his own method and formula and stuck to it until the latter years. Yeah plenty of players wanted offers, but hindsight is 20/20 and just because you want something doesn’t mean that you should get it or that you deserve it. I just don’t understand why we’re looking at these missed connections through the lens of misses, when a)it’s impossible to know at this juncture and b) they were just missed connections - it happens. If the Hill story is true, I’m assuming Hill wasn’t the only recruit JT did that with and for him to get offended, regardless of his perceived level of education, probably had to do with his ego. I don’t know why people are acting like it’s justified to be upset by something like that and that he deserved special treatment - oh wait just kidding I do because this is Hoyatalk the land of entitles fans, many of whom like to fan privilege and who are always looking for the “negatives”. Also a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks who are viewing things in hindsight. So what JT didn’t recruit every player? I mean newsflash he didn’t rock with just any type of person because he had standards. The kids he chose for his program, the reasons went beyond basketball... How some of us still don’t understand sports are much larger than what gets done on the court/field/scoreboard and that JT’s whole life mission was to use sports to empower young men outside of the classroom is beyond me. Sports go beyond wins and losses.... With all due respect this is an awful take in my opinion. Its one thing to brush it off and say its all water under the bridge, its quite another to blow it off entirely as if it made any sense from a basketball standpoint. Our current and more recent coaches have made far less worse recruiting decisions and blunders than this and people here KILL them for it. Sure JT had two future HoF big men on his roster at the same time in the late 80s through early 90s and he deserved props for that. He also surrounded these two big men with some of the worst collection of shooters and creators that I can recall from a program of that stature and that pretty much negated having bigs of that quality. That's why Mourning and Mutombo saw nothing but zone defenses or opposing teams packing all five players in on them in the paint for much if not most of their Big East days. That was on Thompson and to excuse it by suggesting not all players were worthy of a Georgetown scholarship is the type of arrogance that deflated the program in the first place. Geez, has there ever been a less ego-centric and low maintenance basketball star than Grant Hill? But you are suggesting that as a high school senior who went to a good school and got good grades and achieved good testing scores he should not have been insulted by being handed something during an official visit to his own home to prove he had a capable reading level? Really? Seems to me that was a laughably obtuse thing for Thompson to do. On his Talk show JT always emphasized talent wins game. Talent. But here was a man so full of contradictions that he could at times do the hardest thing by getting a five star big men but then be content enough to not get adequate enough players who could help that stud big man take the Hoyas deep. On his show JT would blow a fuse about Shaq and Kobe's feud and how it led to Shaq leaving the Lakers. Despite the two of them leading LA to a three-peat championship, Thompson would claim that they should be hungry for more, that they should try to win as many championships as they could. But he failed to take his own advice on that front because the key to winning it all in college is recruiting and Thompson didn't extend enough effort in that area, particularly post 1984. After that he was willing to bring in an elite big man every four years (Mourning, Othella) and then sit back and act as if he didn't need to keep grinding to get the right pieces to play alongside them. If Iverson hadn't virtually fallen into his lap his last seven or eight seasons would have been unremarkable and forgettable to say the least. These things were self-inflicted wounds that hurt him and his program. This was a great man who accomplished more than most college coaches ever but Georgetown wasn't some damn state school destined to be able to compete against the big boys in athletics forever going forward. To make it a true blue blood Thompson needed to continue to win big and keep the program at a type of brand name level that would guarantee success for anyone who followed him. I will refer to JT's own words on his own radio show again. He bemoaned what was happening to the Big East during the times which the ACC was taking its teams. He was frustrated over how the Georgetown program could not get the type of fan support to fill its arena which would give it a better shot at winning games. And yet some (and I emphasize "some") of the blame could be laid at his own feet by not doing the necessary recruiting to keep GU a top five program up until the day he walked away. Granted he was going to have his share of recruiting defeats as a result of the facilities alone but he and his program still had far enough cache to remain dominant if he had the passion to recruit or at least hire the type of assistant coaches who loved to recruit. Doing that would have kept the Hoyas highly successful and probably led to more titles. And a Georgetown of the late 90s that was still as important to college basketball (media buzz, ratings, oncourt success) as it had been in the mid 80s would have allowed the program and the BE to be in a stronger position when he retired. God bless the man. He made something out of nothing and had done far more good than bad. As Hoya fans we are forever in his debt. But, taking again from his own words, he left money on the table. |
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 5, 2020 17:56:28 GMT -5
Rock, I'm one of the ones who help began this part of the thread about Coach Thompson letting go of talent answering another persons question about his recruitment during the 80's. If you remember, I started with "I was aroud during that time" so no, it was not hindsight for me. I lived through it. I don't know how old or young you are but I lived through it. I also said I was very frustrated. Please go back and read it. I am almost certain those of us speaking on it, were around during those times so we all experienced it. It was frustrating just like today the Hoyas don't land locals. Except this is ten times worst because the locals were ten times more talented back then than they are today. I am not trying to be negative, I am simply being factual as we need to know both the good and bad. I am hoping Patrick and any other future coaches can learn from this so we as fan won't be on future boards complaining about getting low level talent like we are doing today. Furthermore, we should be a blue blood school from a recruiting standpoint and that's a fact! Hindsight referring to how those players turned out as basketball players. That’s the hindsight I meant. And maybe you missed my point? You’re seemingly frustrated because you’re operating under the assumption that the goal is to get every top player sight unseen, without regards to anything else but their basketball game. I don’t think there is anything For Ewing to learn from what you’re describing, if anything this past week and season should’ve reminded you that fit is much more important than talent alone when talent doesn’t fit. Again, it’s too simple to look back and be like “we should’ve just let that HOFer come here”. Okay, what if JT didn’t like that players attitude or work ethic? Again, (Amateur)sports are much bigger than just wins and losses. I can definitely understand your frustrations, but again I think most of it is because you’re assuming the central imperative is to get all the best players regardless of the type of person they were or how they’d fit into the team. This week has made it painfully obvious that JT was more interested in the person than the player for the most part. You can definitely disagree with that ideology, but it is pretty much the only reason someone like me is a Hoya fan. When all my friends always ask me how I can be the biggest Hoya fan they know and I didn’t even go to GU, I’ve realized over the years and have told them about the culture and tradition that go beyond just wins and losses. Sure we don’t have the resources and commitment to developing a super robust and organized alumni network so folks are a little scattered, but the sports experience at GU goes beyond the scoreboard and that’s an important thing for the development of young men and women. Just look at what Sgarlata is preaching - it’s the same message. And the same reason GU was on my list till the end even though they had only won 5 games in the previous 5 years before I was being recruited (different sport). Again I understand your points and they’re valid but I don’t agree with the logic. Hence describing them as misses connections instead of assuming they were missed and would’ve obviously been fits for the program back then. Exactly. I don't think Grant Hill would have been a good fit given his personality and rich social status and upbringing. I think JT saw that. Pops has been pretty upfront about stating what he was looking for. Bringing in underprivileged African American kids and giving them an educational opportunity that they wouldn't have had otherwise. If you look at his recruiting he was really consistent on that yet people always seem to overlook that when crying about Grant Hill or Dennis Scott. |
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 5, 2020 18:01:09 GMT -5
Given Coach's track record, his reputation, his coaching ability, his recruiting ability, his intelligence, maybe there was a reason why certain players did not receive offers. And that reason may not be all on Coach. Two sides to everything and then there is the truth. At this point, it is irrelevant. It has always been irrelevant. Why? We had too many great players that played at Georgetown. From the NBA Hall of Famers to the role players. Too many great memories. Thinking what if about players who could have played for G-town places the emphasis strictly on basketball. The deflated basketball was in Coach's office for a reason. That was his focus. His mindset. It makes you appreciate Coach Thompson and his legacy more than ever. Also, Pops had to run a really clean recruiting program. Cause as an African American coach, even one slip up and you are gone and banished forever like Bob Wade. White coaches like Will Wade and Shawn Miller can cheat over and over again and be given more opportunities. So, there was a part of the recruiting game that Pops wasn't comfortable playing and given the unequal playing field with cheating that even persists to this day, I can understand why. |
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