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Post by professorhoya on May 15, 2022 9:50:59 GMT -5
Don has gotten more adoration and gooey eyed love in the last week from the anti Ewing-Thompson.crowd then he has in his entire last two year here. I think it's weird that "it's bad that our best and most experienced player is transferring to another DMV school that is clearly now the area alpha program and has put us in a subordinate position" counts as "adoration and gooey-eyed love", but the homers that buy into the Ewing Cult of Personality will throw any player or standard under the bus in order to try to prop up our Coach and defend whatever new low is the status quo. Go ahead and mock people defending players - it's super weird to me that Ryan Mutombo actually decides to return to this mess and Ewing fans are bashing on him this week. I don't get how bashing on players makes Patrick Ewing look any better. Attack Don Carey for past transfers. Those transfers didn't matter when we brought him in, they didn't matter when he returned last year, but now apparently he's a flaky guy because he may have graduated Georgetown and doesn't want to stay at this mess. Don Carey is replaceable? We didn't replace his production. Unless you consider Brandon Murray the Don Carey replacement, we didn't bring in anyone that is Don Carey's caliber. Jay Heath might be decent, but he's not Don Carey and he may not even be eligible. Attack Don Carey for being older? Not sure anyone happened to see Providence last season, but having experienced, mature, older players actually helps in college basketball. Clear the decks / we need an entirely new team because we were 0-20? We didn't clear the decks whatsoever, three of our four coaches are returnees, and this is a college basketball team that ostensibly is supposed to be about education and graduating kids, not a company that was a hostile takeover by Carl Icahn. Don Carey isn't an NBA player / doesn't have huge upside? Who cares? We're rooting for a college basketball team, not an NBA team, and older players that don't have NBA upside win conference championships every year. I would rather have a winning program where no one gets drafted than a 0-20 program where one player sniffs the league barely. I don't think you are rooting for "our" college basketball team, Theodore. You certainly haven't been the last couple years.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 9:54:37 GMT -5
I love and respect what DC gave us over the last 2 years but the reality is that college basketball has become a business of rotatable replaceable parts. That’s just the way it is now. We get most excited about getting a 4-5 star recruit whose highest success level is that he’s good enough to be gone after one year. Ahhh, the it-happens-to-all-the-programs excuse. How does Villanova do it?
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TC
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Post by TC on May 15, 2022 10:00:43 GMT -5
You’re wrong about Heath. He put up almost 15 ppg in the ACC. Admittedly on a terrible BC team but Don couldn’t score that much as the number one option in the BE. Usage doesn't make up for all the other things that Carey does better than Heath (rebounding, assists, free throw shooting, three point shooting). PPG is a dumb stat.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 10:01:23 GMT -5
I think it's weird that "it's bad that our best and most experienced player is transferring to another DMV school that is clearly now the area alpha program and has put us in a subordinate position" counts as "adoration and gooey-eyed love", but the homers that buy into the Ewing Cult of Personality will throw any player or standard under the bus in order to try to prop up our Coach and defend whatever new low is the status quo. Go ahead and mock people defending players - it's super weird to me that Ryan Mutombo actually decides to return to this mess and Ewing fans are bashing on him this week. I don't get how bashing on players makes Patrick Ewing look any better. Attack Don Carey for past transfers. Those transfers didn't matter when we brought him in, they didn't matter when he returned last year, but now apparently he's a flaky guy because he may have graduated Georgetown and doesn't want to stay at this mess. Don Carey is replaceable? We didn't replace his production. Unless you consider Brandon Murray the Don Carey replacement, we didn't bring in anyone that is Don Carey's caliber. Jay Heath might be decent, but he's not Don Carey and he may not even be eligible. Attack Don Carey for being older? Not sure anyone happened to see Providence last season, but having experienced, mature, older players actually helps in college basketball. Clear the decks / we need an entirely new team because we were 0-20? We didn't clear the decks whatsoever, three of our four coaches are returnees, and this is a college basketball team that ostensibly is supposed to be about education and graduating kids, not a company that was a hostile takeover by Carl Icahn. Don Carey isn't an NBA player / doesn't have huge upside? Who cares? We're rooting for a college basketball team, not an NBA team, and older players that don't have NBA upside win conference championships every year. I would rather have a winning program where no one gets drafted than a 0-20 program where one player sniffs the league barely. You’re wrong about Heath. He put up almost 15 ppg in the ACC. Admittedly on a terrible BC team but Don couldn’t score that much as the number one option in the BE. They’re basically a trade for one another, and I actually like Heath’s defense more. The eligibility point is valid, but I doubt the kid would transfer if he didn’t feel he had a solid shot at being immediately eligible. Carey may have been a good shooter and overall our most efficient player but he was extremely limited offensively and was meh on defense outside of a solid stretch to end the season. I’m not sweating the loss of the captain of an 0-20 team. It’s sour grapes. Pat said he wanted his captain back.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 10:04:09 GMT -5
You’re wrong about Heath. He put up almost 15 ppg in the ACC. Admittedly on a terrible BC team but Don couldn’t score that much as the number one option in the BE. Usage doesn't make up for all the other things that Carey does better than Heath (rebounding, assists, free throw shooting, three point shooting). PPG is a dumb stat. Even the one-&-done mills need the experienced upperclassmen to win big. We only have inconsistent Dante.
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Don Carey
May 15, 2022 10:08:28 GMT -5
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Post by trillesthoya on May 15, 2022 10:08:28 GMT -5
You’re wrong about Heath. He put up almost 15 ppg in the ACC. Admittedly on a terrible BC team but Don couldn’t score that much as the number one option in the BE. Usage doesn't make up for all the other things that Carey does better than Heath (rebounding, assists, free throw shooting, three point shooting). PPG is a dumb stat. All the stats you listed are dumb stats and don’t say much in a vacuum, context matters for everything from rebounding to assists to shooting numbers. Heath was a much better three point shooter this season. Carey is clearly the more efficient player but much of that is because he was only good for catch and shoot looks most of the last two seasons. Zero ability to create for himself against actual teams which is something Heath does well. Regardless, neither player is so much better than the other the fret the swap.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 10:14:22 GMT -5
Usage doesn't make up for all the other things that Carey does better than Heath (rebounding, assists, free throw shooting, three point shooting). PPG is a dumb stat. All the stats you listed are dumb stats and don’t say much in a vacuum, context matters for everything from rebounding to assists to shooting numbers. Heath was a much better three point shooter this season. Carey is clearly the more efficient player but much of that is because he was only good for catch and shoot looks most of the last two seasons. Zero ability to create for himself against actual teams which is something Heath does well. Regardless, neither player is so much better than the other the fret the swap. That was not how Ewing was using Carey when Dante went down and for the rest of the season. Pat wanted to keep Carey and add a player, not swap Carey for another player.
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Don Carey
May 15, 2022 10:15:57 GMT -5
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Post by trillesthoya on May 15, 2022 10:15:57 GMT -5
All the stats you listed are dumb stats and don’t say much in a vacuum, context matters for everything from rebounding to assists to shooting numbers. Heath was a much better three point shooter this season. Carey is clearly the more efficient player but much of that is because he was only good for catch and shoot looks most of the last two seasons. Zero ability to create for himself against actual teams which is something Heath does well. Regardless, neither player is so much better than the other the fret the swap. That was not how Ewing was using Carey when Dante went down and for the rest of the season. Pat wanted to keep Carey and add a player, not swap Carey for another player. You’re putting way too much weight on a throwaway line during a dinner honoring him. Actions speak way louder than words.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on May 15, 2022 10:19:37 GMT -5
There's a difference between whining and ignoring reality. The fact is that, even in this era of NIL and easy transfers, losing your best players is just not that common. Much less losing them to the program across the state line that is supposed to be an archrival (or at least was when people cared). As I've said before, it's easy to explain away any single part of the pattern, but it keeps happening: - Akinjo transfers to Arizona after essentially having freedom to do whatever he wanted in Ewing's system, even when it wasn't to the team's benefit. - McClung is essentially our featured player and leaves for Texas Tech, possibly because of Ewing's comments on McClung and the draft. - Wahab, shortly after Ewing says he could be the best big in the nation, or something to that effect, leaves for Maryland. - Carey, having one more year of eligibility, after being one of the few bright spots on our team last year, decides to go to Maryland (coached by a former Big East coach he's surely familiar with). And, I am not ignoring the other transfers or dismissals who played less (Walker, Sodom, LeBlanc, Carter, Alexander, Clark, Sibley, Holloway, Berger, Beard, Billingsly, King). I am not "whining" about it, but some of you act as though we aren't going to change anything (except swapping Kirby for Nickelberry) and yet somehow, Ewing and company are going to figure it out and turn it around. I really hope I am wrong, but there is essentially no indication that things will turn around. To put on my optimist's cap, I do think it's great that Ewing and Nickelberry got Murray, I also think Akok and Heath are really nice additions. So, I suppose it's nice that we will have them for one year before we have yet another tumultuous off season. But, if we cannot have any continuity going forward, it'll basically be a hamster wheel with the same discussions year after year until DeGioia and company decide to make a real change. Although you often come off as priggish this post strikes the right balance. As many here do, I watch in amazement as the Blindly Defend Ewing crowd has lowered the limbo bar to the point that no failure is attributable to the head coach. I tire of both the defend everything AND the attack everything posters. I remember realizing, about 6 weeks ago, that Don had another year of eligibility, and raised the possibility he'd be back at GU. The immediate comments were, primarily, unenthusiastic about that prospect. Now, of course, he's, to some, a major loss. I suspect, to many of the same folks, had he returned , he'd be a retread of 0-20. I think getting Heath made the backcourt full, and we will never know whether that influenced Don to go elsewhere rather than to stay here, unless he is asked and directly answers that question.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 10:57:55 GMT -5
That was not how Ewing was using Carey when Dante went down and for the rest of the season. Pat wanted to keep Carey and add a player, not swap Carey for another player. You’re putting way too much weight on a throwaway line during a dinner honoring him. Actions speak way louder than words. If you’re pro-Ewing, those words are gospel. As to actions, I don’t know which ones you mean, but he couldn’t retain Carey.
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Don Carey
May 15, 2022 11:33:50 GMT -5
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Post by trillesthoya on May 15, 2022 11:33:50 GMT -5
You’re putting way too much weight on a throwaway line during a dinner honoring him. Actions speak way louder than words. If you’re pro-Ewing, those words are gospel. As to actions, I don’t know which ones you mean, but he couldn’t retain Carey. Couldn’t? What makes you think they really tried? All ive seen is a throwaway line from Ewing during the team dinner. We don’t know how much they wanted him back, or if NIL was the primary decision maker. You’re bemoaning the loss of Carey without any actual knowledge of if this was a recruiting battle we lost out on and when we seemingly have a more than apt substitute ready to take on his role in Heath.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 15, 2022 11:35:17 GMT -5
Although you often come off as priggish this post strikes the right balance. As many here do, I watch in amazement as the Blindly Defend Ewing crowd has lowered the limbo bar to the point that no failure is attributable to the head coach. I tire of both the defend everything AND the attack everything posters. I remember realizing, about 6 weeks ago, that Don had another year of eligibility, and raised the possibility he'd be back at GU. The immediate comments were, primarily, unenthusiastic about that prospect. Now, of course, he's, to some, a major loss. I suspect, to many of the same folks, had he returned , he'd be a retread of 0-20. I think getting Heath made the backcourt full, and we will never know whether that influenced Don to go elsewhere rather than to stay here, unless he is asked and directly answers that question. In an imaginary world where Carey came back, I don't think anybody on HoyaTalk would have thought it was a bad idea. Yeah, some may have said we'd have a crowded backcourt, etc., but there is no conceivable or rational argument to say we are better off without him. While I recognize some are making efforts to downplay the loss, or downplay Carey himself, we'd be better with him than without. As I've said before, losing Carey is a loss on the court, but definitely not as drastic a loss as Wahab was, for example. With Wahab, we really had nobody even remotely close to his level to replace him. With Carey, we at least have Murray, hopefully Heath if he's eligible this year, Anglin who is a good shooter, and maybe even Aminu if he comes back. Losing Carey is not a huge hit (though definitely a hit) for our on-the-court performance, it just stinks to lose another guy to transfer. That's all.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 11:59:57 GMT -5
If you’re pro-Ewing, those words are gospel. As to actions, I don’t know which ones you mean, but he couldn’t retain Carey. Couldn’t? What makes you think they really tried? All ive seen is a throwaway line from Ewing during the team dinner. We don’t know how much they wanted him back, or if NIL was the primary decision maker. You’re bemoaning the loss of Carey without any actual knowledge of if this was a recruiting battle we lost out on and when we seemingly have a more than apt substitute ready to take on his role in Heath. Yes, let’s not believe Ewing with the mic in a party…
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Don Carey
May 15, 2022 12:02:01 GMT -5
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Post by trillesthoya on May 15, 2022 12:02:01 GMT -5
Couldn’t? What makes you think they really tried? All ive seen is a throwaway line from Ewing during the team dinner. We don’t know how much they wanted him back, or if NIL was the primary decision maker. You’re bemoaning the loss of Carey without any actual knowledge of if this was a recruiting battle we lost out on and when we seemingly have a more than apt substitute ready to take on his role in Heath. Yes, let’s not believe Ewing with the mic in a party… Correct, let’s give zero credence to coach speak because it is meaningless, especially coming from Pat.
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Post by professorhoya on May 15, 2022 12:59:10 GMT -5
Couldn’t? What makes you think they really tried? All ive seen is a throwaway line from Ewing during the team dinner. We don’t know how much they wanted him back, or if NIL was the primary decision maker. You’re bemoaning the loss of Carey without any actual knowledge of if this was a recruiting battle we lost out on and when we seemingly have a more than apt substitute ready to take on his role in Heath. Yes, let’s not believe Ewing with the mic in a party… What was he supposed to say. No, I don't want you back, you aren't a leader and aren't clutch so we want to give the Captaincy to somebody else?
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guru
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Post by guru on May 15, 2022 12:59:50 GMT -5
Yes, let’s not believe Ewing with the mic in a party… What was he supposed to say. No, I don't want you back, you aren't a leader and aren't clutch so we want to give the Captaincy to somebody else? That’s what we have. Ronny Thompson, aka a Larry Burns.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on May 15, 2022 13:15:15 GMT -5
I tire of both the defend everything AND the attack everything posters. I remember realizing, about 6 weeks ago, that Don had another year of eligibility, and raised the possibility he'd be back at GU. The immediate comments were, primarily, unenthusiastic about that prospect. Now, of course, he's, to some, a major loss. I suspect, to many of the same folks, had he returned , he'd be a retread of 0-20. I think getting Heath made the backcourt full, and we will never know whether that influenced Don to go elsewhere rather than to stay here, unless he is asked and directly answers that question. In an imaginary world where Carey came back, I don't think anybody on HoyaTalk would have thought it was a bad idea. Yeah, some may have said we'd have a crowded backcourt, etc., but there is no conceivable or rational argument to say we are better off without him. While I recognize some are making efforts to downplay the loss, or downplay Carey himself, we'd be better with him than without. As I've said before, losing Carey is a loss on the court, but definitely not as drastic a loss as Wahab was, for example. With Wahab, we really had nobody even remotely close to his level to replace him. With Carey, we at least have Murray, hopefully Heath if he's eligible this year, Anglin who is a good shooter, and maybe even Aminu if he comes back. Losing Carey is not a huge hit (though definitely a hit) for our on-the-court performance, it just stinks to lose another guy to transfer. That's all. When you say: "In an imaginary world where Carey came back, I don't think anybody on HoyaTalk would have thought it was a bad idea" I think you underestimate the persistent negativity of at least 3 or 4 who post. I don't need to name the names. Most readers know who they are. Of course, nothing that can't happen is provable, but... experience can teach some of us.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 15, 2022 13:16:56 GMT -5
Yes, let’s not believe Ewing with the mic in a party… What was he supposed to say. No, I don't want you back, you aren't a leader and aren't clutch so we want to give the Captaincy to somebody else? He didn’t have to say anything. Maybe “Congrats on yet another degree!”
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TC
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Post by TC on May 15, 2022 13:17:35 GMT -5
When you say: "In an imaginary world where Carey came back, I don't think anybody on HoyaTalk would have thought it was a bad idea" I think you underestimate the persistent negativity of at least 3 or 4 who post. I don't need to name the names. Most readers know who they are. Of course, nothing that can't happen is provable, but... experience can teach some of us. By and large the only people who say bad things about players are the ones who are trying to defend Patrick Ewing's record.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on May 15, 2022 13:20:23 GMT -5
I love and respect what DC gave us over the last 2 years but the reality is that college basketball has become a business of rotatable replaceable parts. That’s just the way it is now. We get most excited about getting a 4-5 star recruit whose highest success level is that he’s good enough to be gone after one year. Ahhh, the it-happens-to-all-the-programs excuse. How does Villanova do it? It doesn't happen to all programs, but I think you and I know the answer to your question. Again, Don's departure is a bad example for any discussion about our issues in retaining players.
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