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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 2, 2016 21:04:15 GMT -5
And "you're just wrong" that it was token pressure, so where does that leave us? I guess 2-0 in conference! I know it doesn't fit your "JTIII is a terrible coach" narrative - but we DID NOT apply pressure, other than Tre's occasional light pressure early in the game on 3 or 4 possessions. Keep trying though. Eventually we will lose again and you can rail against the machine. |
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 2, 2016 21:04:54 GMT -5
Very gutty win. Hoyas were the tougher team both mentally and physically. Loved Govan not backing down from that clown and putting him in his place. That acting job was pathetic and embarrassing. You shoved a guy, he put you in your place with an elbow, you were not hurt...play on and spare us the dramatics. But that was the correct play by Jessie- zero back down from a punk. Plays like that in the first half set the tone for the game.
Obviously, there were too many turnovers in the second half. From my perspective, that was the problem- not any change in pace. It is hard to establish any good pace when you are throwing the ball away like that. Still, a number of the turnovers were good thought but bad execution (for instance, trying to get it inside). I can live with that. There is both a ton of room for improvement and talent to take this team to another level. Back to work and on to a huge road game. Hoya saxa!
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 21:05:01 GMT -5
We did not press in the first half. Tre gave some token pressure, but we did not press. In the first half, we had a lot of crispy sharp movement and passes. In the second, we didn't. It was execution. Well just agree to disagree. Press is probably the wrong word but it wasn't token pressure. It was a 3/4 press and it kept them from even initiating their offense until there were 20 seconds on the clock. It leads to bad offense, missed shots and rebounds (basically exactly what we did coughing up the lead). And if you think that our offense was just well executed in the first half then you were watching a different game. We were in their front court on every single miss no later than 28 seconds. Hell I saw one where we beat the shot clock operator and it said 30. That's a game plan, albeit executed wel, but we only shot 55%, it wasn't transcendent. It was just excellent defense translated into quick easy points by design. We didn't press and the execution in the early part of the second was flat-out bad. Lazy/poor passes mostly (leading to turnovers) and the spacing was much worse than in the first. I'm not saying they weren't in grind mode. I'm only saying the execution was still the issue. The spacing improved and defensive intensity picked up when it got within 8. Not that Marquette is a great offensive or defensive team but you gotta step on a throat when it's exposed. Nothing good comes from not doing that. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 21:11:36 GMT -5
I believe/hope that this was the game that serves as a turning point for Govan and Derrickson. Let's not underestimate this Marquette team. They had a ton of motivation to win this game, afterall they are looking at an 0-3 start next week. Those two big dudes are also a handful to defend and they can play. They remind me of the Duke prototype. Yet Derrickson and Govan contained them. That's solid D, my friends. Govan--ooh what poise and knocking down 3's like he is DSR! Marquette isn't good. That doesn't take away from what Marcus and Jessie were able to contribute in the least. Marquette isn't good because they can't stop people from getting in the paint and they can't shoot very well. Their major strength is their 2 bigs which Jessie and Marcus had their way with most of the time. As freshmen that were less heralded than Ellenson. I've seen Ellenson play well in a couple of games. Tonight? Not so much in large part due to those two guys and, of course, Bradley. Ellenson was grabbing and fouling on a TON of plays on the offensive end and not getting called for it. I assume it was out of frustration because he could not muscle either of our freshmen that matched up with him. Even one of the commentators mentioned in the second that the Hoyas forced him to be a perimeter player. Well done Jessie and Marcus. It was nice to see Jessie get the applause that he did when he fouled out and the big hug from Bradley. |
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 2, 2016 21:15:26 GMT -5
Considering that the team will not likely play a perfect game all season, there were far more positives than negatives in this game. Big step forward for Govan and Derrickson and continued growth for Kaleb, whose rebounding should not be overlooked. What is best about this team is that when DSR is not scoring and Copeland has a pedestrian game the Hoyas still have the depth to beat a decent team. Only gripe is that the perimeter passing game remains a turnover waiting to happen as soon as the other team stops fearing the entry pass to the posts. Great result and another learning opportunity for younger players. White would make this team so much stronger on offense, but am beginning to worry about his season being lost.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 2, 2016 21:54:21 GMT -5
Yeah, man, every one of your game thread posts except this one looks that way.  Nope. This thing was going according to the JT3 handbook. we went 10 minutes with 2 points. We scored once in 15 possessions. Time and again this team fails to put away teams after building big leads. Mea Culpa on DSR but the rest of my posts were spot-on as per usual. Right. |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 2, 2016 21:57:34 GMT -5
Nope. This thing was going according to the JT3 handbook. we went 10 minutes with 2 points. We scored once in 15 possessions. Time and again this team fails to put away teams after building big leads. Mea Culpa on DSR but the rest of my posts were spot-on as per usual. Right. I complain about this, too, but part of this is just basketball. When you build a 19 point lead shooting 60%, it isn't really sustainable. It's more likely than not, the game will get closer. It happens to everyone. We still won the game by 10 points, after having a 13 pt lead at half time. So, what else do you really want from a team like this? |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 2, 2016 21:59:54 GMT -5
Lot of pluses to take from that win, most importantly I would hope JT3 would look at himself and trust his players to press and run like they did in the first half instead of putting the brakes on and pretending that somehow bleeding the clock every possession for 20 minutes won't bite you in the a$$ eventually. That second half was brutal and it wasn't execution, it was absolutely perfect execution of a changed and terrible second half game plans. Let em play coach, they should have proved to you they can do 40 if you'll let them. True. I have said this so many times. When we stall the game like that our players get nervous and start making sloppy plays. That was an exciting first half. We weren't really stalling. Marquette just played better defense. Sometimes stuff like that happens. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 22:15:07 GMT -5
Now I'm confused. It's not a coaching problem when the team doesn't shoot 60% for the entire game?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 2, 2016 22:27:32 GMT -5
I didn't see any press....and this coming from the guy that would love to see a passive zone press.
This was just the sort of balanced offensive effort I thought we would see all year. I didn't think we really took the air out of the ball. You could tell based on the fact that III's reaction to those two wide open quick threes in the second half wasn't anger at the shot but regret that they didn't fall. Certainly a benefit to having Campbell in there is that it is easier to push; it just isn't DSR's strength.
We aren't a good passing team, so that's going to continue to be an issue. Our post entries are poor and we just aren't clean.
I love, love, love using Marcus as a stretch four and forcing his man to choose whether to help when we run a high PNR. Did that a lot and it was clearly intentional. I've wanted to see us use Marcus (or Reggie or Ike) as the screener but doing it that way works too and allows the five to pin down if they don't get the roll. Maybe we have tried to do it previously but this was the first time I saw the spacing and timing work consistently.
We also continue to use the penetrate/corner three. Again, its clearly something we've consciously worked on because we've seen it multiple times the past two games and really didn't see it at all before that.
Teams go on runs. And we shot it well in the first half. You aren't going to beat everyone by 26 just because you're up 13 at the half.
I thought rebounding was a huge key. I know they aren't a good rebounding team but that hasn't stopped us from struggling against others. We got a few second chances and really closed them down after one shot.
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aristides
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Post by aristides on Jan 2, 2016 22:29:45 GMT -5
One of the best games I've seen DSR play all year. He was tremendously patient with his field goal attempts and concentrated on facilitating the offense for his teammates. And yet when the team needed him to get the baskets at the end of the game he was there to deliver. Only 1 turnover to go with 8 assists. Really impressive. That's the style of point guard play that makes everyone around him better.
I loved Johnson's minutes as well. What a steal he is going to be.
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Jan 2, 2016 22:37:56 GMT -5
And "you're just wrong" that it was token pressure, so where does that leave us? I guess 2-0 in conference! I know it doesn't fit your "JTIII is a terrible coach" narrative - but we DID NOT apply pressure, other than Tre's occasional light pressure early in the game on 3 or 4 possessions. Keep trying though. Eventually we will lose again and you can rail against the machine. "Light pressure" only on "3 or 4 possessions"... you realize we're talking about the same possessions that resulted in a 15-2 run where we took control of the game, right? Where we ran after every missed basket resulting from the defensive stands flowing from that light, token and meaningless pressure? "Dude, you're such an idiot, we didn't do anything differently except shoot a better FG percentage!" Go ahead and make me the bogeyman, I've never said JT3 was a terrible coach. I've only said some of his tactics, or lack thereof, are disappointing, and I for one was over the moon watching us do something new, different and, gosh, effective. You go ahead and tell yourself the only thing we did was hit a few more shots than usual, and yeah, next time we drop 11 TOs in a half running our dreck, I'll "rail against the machine" about the time we dropped 49 playing the exact opposite. You need a toolbox, and tonight JT3 actually added to this team's. It's assertive, it's aggressive. You call it token and light, I saw a team on its front foot taking initiative, forcing the issue and imposing its will about when possessions start and how they end. I saw a coach making a major lineup change and exploiting the personnel behind that change. Whatever you call that stretch, it was a game-changer of the kind lacking a few weeks ago when this team was having that kind of run made against them and never recovering. So, maybe I'm just making too much of it, but I hope JT3 saw something he can game plan in, incorporate in for stretches, and continually push this team to exploit the athletic advantages it has over almost every other team the way it did tonight. |
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 2, 2016 22:47:17 GMT -5
I believe/hope that this was the game that serves as a turning point for Govan and Derrickson. Let's not underestimate this Marquette team. They had a ton of motivation to win this game, afterall they are looking at an 0-3 start next week. Those two big dudes are also a handful to defend and they can play. They remind me of the Duke prototype. Yet Derrickson and Govan contained them. That's solid D, my friends. Govan--ooh what poise and knocking down 3's like he is DSR! Marquette isn't good. That doesn't take away from what Marcus and Jessie were able to contribute in the least. Marquette isn't good because they can't stop people from getting in the paint and they can't shoot very well. Their major strength is their 2 bigs which Jessie and Marcus had their way with most of the time. As freshmen that were less heralded than Ellenson. I've seen Ellenson play well in a couple of games. Tonight? Not so much in large part due to those two guys and, of course, Bradley. Ellenson was grabbing and fouling on a TON of plays on the offensive end and not getting called for it. I assume it was out of frustration because he could not muscle either of our freshmen that matched up with him. Even one of the commentators mentioned in the second that the Hoyas forced him to be a perimeter player. Well done Jessie and Marcus. It was nice to see Jessie get the applause that he did when he fouled out and the big hug from Bradley. Let's see if we will be having this discussion again when they take on Villanova this week. Marquette is a very good team. Well-coached team with two to three solid players. Let's see what happens going forward. |
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Post by hobokenhoya on Jan 2, 2016 22:56:19 GMT -5
One of the best games I've seen DSR play all year. He was tremendously patient with his field goal attempts and concentrated on facilitating the offense for his teammates. And yet when the team needed him to get the baskets at the end of the game he was there to deliver. Only 1 turnover to go with 8 assists. Really impressive. That's the style of point guard play that makes everyone around him better. I loved Johnson's minutes as well. What a steal he is going to be. I agree with everything in this post. I'll add that i am pleasantly surprised that in my estimation (with an injured PW, an inconsistent but I hope/think improving LJ and Tre still trying to find himself this season) the 3 frosh > the 4 sophs as we stand here today. And I'm excited about the 7 of them plus trey and Reggie and whatever freshman crack the rotation next year. Marquette played better D for sure once we got it to 55-36 but 8 turnovers (a lot just lazy passes) in 10 possessions was discouraging. We have to keep our foot on the pedal and we were getting stops and then milking the clock for a while there and for the most part turning it over before we got a shot up. And then it became a game and we got tight. At 55-26 with 18:30 left, you should keep doing what got you there not slow it down which I do think we did. Good win. Need 3 more or to me it's all meaningless anyway. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 23:02:25 GMT -5
I know it doesn't fit your "JTIII is a terrible coach" narrative - but we DID NOT apply pressure, other than Tre's occasional light pressure early in the game on 3 or 4 possessions. Keep trying though. Eventually we will lose again and you can rail against the machine. "Light pressure" only on "3 or 4 possessions"... you realize we're talking about the same possessions that resulted in a 15-2 run where we took control of the game, right? Where we ran after every missed basket resulting from the defensive stands flowing from that light, token and meaningless pressure? "Dude, you're such an idiot, we didn't do anything differently except shoot a better FG percentage!" Go ahead and make me the bogeyman, I've never said JT3 was a terrible coach. I've only said some of his tactics, or lack thereof, are disappointing, and I for one was over the moon watching us do something new, different and, gosh, effective. You go ahead and tell yourself the only thing we did was hit a few more shots than usual, and yeah, next time we drop 11 TOs in a half running our dreck, I'll "rail against the machine" about the time we dropped 49 playing the exact opposite. You need a toolbox, and tonight JT3 actually added to this team's. It's assertive, it's aggressive. You call it token and light, I saw a team on its front foot taking initiative, forcing the issue and imposing its will about when possessions start and how they end. I saw a coach making a major lineup change and exploiting the personnel behind that change. Whatever you call that stretch, it was a game-changer of the kind lacking a few weeks ago when this team was having that kind of run made against them and never recovering. So, maybe I'm just making too much of it, but I hope JT3 saw something he can game plan in, incorporate in for stretches, and continually push this team to exploit the athletic advantages it has over almost every other team the way it did tonight. I don't know if you're dealing with a complex that disallows you to admit that you're wrong but have at it. It sure is funny to read. There was no press. Period. It's not subjective. People would take the other things you say more seriously if you would just admit when you're objectively wrong. It takes away from whatever else you say. For instance, I agree with you on the lineup change being a big thing. Not for the reasons you said but for the fact that Tre allows DSR to be more of the player he is and LJ's versatility helps the bench players more than it helps the starting lineup. For all of those that have been railing about JT3 not making adjustments, if those same people continue with that after tonight's game, it's even more ridiculous than it was before and the rationale behind it will only be more glaring. After a win, however, most of those people are really quiet. Tonight was the first night when I felt like the guys were finding their identity and were actually enjoying playing D as much as one can enjoy doing it. There were moments when they were really getting after it and the bench was fired up about locking down. A coach can preach that all day but that doesn't make it fun or something that a team prides itself on. Tonight, there were some flashes. I saw it briefly the other night too when Isaac pointed to himself on a blown assignment, taking responsibility. It was also the first time I felt like we could be a decent defensive team with the right lineups. The Syracuse game I attributed it to being Syracuse and everyone was jacked up and the Cuse just isn't that good this year. Tonight, while Marquette isn't very good, they are physical and grabby and we did a nice job on the perimeter while trusting the guys down low to protect the rim. They did that. Better than I've seen all year by a good amount against a team that can really only win down low. Tonight wasn't a great game but there were some really good things happening that, if they point to a progression for some of the guys (DSR, Marcus, Jessie, Bradley, Tre), we could have something. It's difficult, however, to forget how inconsistent our Hoyas have been so, taken as a single game, maybe it means less than I want it to mean. Regardless, it was fun to see our guys play that first half with confidence and purpose and effort on D. The early part of the second half was not good. But there are always going to be stretches of poor execution. And they stopped the bleeding which is a good first step. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 23:08:24 GMT -5
Marquette isn't good. That doesn't take away from what Marcus and Jessie were able to contribute in the least. Marquette isn't good because they can't stop people from getting in the paint and they can't shoot very well. Their major strength is their 2 bigs which Jessie and Marcus had their way with most of the time. As freshmen that were less heralded than Ellenson. I've seen Ellenson play well in a couple of games. Tonight? Not so much in large part due to those two guys and, of course, Bradley. Ellenson was grabbing and fouling on a TON of plays on the offensive end and not getting called for it. I assume it was out of frustration because he could not muscle either of our freshmen that matched up with him. Even one of the commentators mentioned in the second that the Hoyas forced him to be a perimeter player. Well done Jessie and Marcus. It was nice to see Jessie get the applause that he did when he fouled out and the big hug from Bradley. Let's see if we will be having this discussion again when they take on Villanova this week. Marquette is a very good team. Well-coached team with two to three solid players. Let's see what happens going forward. Marquette is not a very good team. They have two tall players, one of which is quite good and the other of which is above average. The one that is very good, and a freshman, got worked by two of our freshmen tonight. I don't consider the Hoyas a very good team at this point because they haven't proven it. By that same metric, neither have the Golden Eagles. And they lost to us by 10 and to the Hall by 20. How are they very good? Check back in when they get beaten by Villanova. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 2, 2016 23:10:53 GMT -5
Just back to the hotel after the game - haven't read any of the clearly scintillating analysis that precedes, but here are a couple thoughts:
The first half was the best offensive execution I've seen thus far this year. Defense was great as well.
Marquette bumped and grabbed all the cutters in the second half. When the refs only call a third of them, that's a great strategy. It certainly ground the offense nearly to a halt.
Wojo does a great Crean-Buzz Williams - 2-3 feet out on the floor virtually every play.
Reggie Cam played great except for the requisite boneheaded pass for a Marquette layup.
I love Isaac Copeland but man were his entry passes awfully executed tonight.
Jessie Govan played confidently for the first time in a while - a great sign.
Mike Stephens thinks he is the show. What else could explain all those out of position and anticipation calls, not all of which were against the Hoyas?
Nice turnout by the students away on vacation crowd - and by the 34-strong Johnny Jones-led crowd of hecklers along the baseline near the Marquette bench.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 2, 2016 23:12:04 GMT -5
Let's see if we will be having this discussion again when they take on Villanova this week. Marquette is a very good team. Well-coached team with two to three solid players. Let's see what happens going forward. Marquette is not a very good team. They have two tall players, one of which is quite good and the other of which is above average. The one that is very good, and a freshman, got worked by two of our freshmen tonight. I don't consider the Hoyas a very good team at this point because they haven't proven it. By that same metric, neither have the Golden Eagles. And they lost to us by 10 and to the Hall by 20. How are they very good? Check back in when they get beaten by Villanova. Yeah, they aren't very good, and more importantly, they were a good match up for us because they don't really shoot 3s or jump shots well. Still, as with the DePaul game, i think we are doing a better job switching and closing out on shooters. |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 2, 2016 23:13:05 GMT -5
Just back to the hotel after the game - haven't read any of the clearly scintillating analysis that precedes, but here are a couple thoughts: The first half was the best offensive execution I've seen thus far this year. Defense was great as well. Marquette bumped and grabbed all the cutters in the second half. When the refs only call a third of them, that's a great strategy. It certainly ground the offense nearly to a halt. Wojo does a great Crean-Buzz Williams - 2-3 feet out on the floor virtually every play. Reggie Cam played great except for the requisite boneheaded pass for a Marquette layup. I love Isaac Copeland but man were his entry passes awfully executed tonight. Jessie Govan played confidently for the first time in a while - a great sign. Mike Stephens thinks he is the show. What else could explain all those out of position and anticipation calls, not all of which were against the Hoyas? Nice turnout by the students away on vacation crowd - and by the 34-strong Johnny Jones-led crowd of hecklers along the baseline near the Marquette bench. Yeah, there was a good crowd tonight. Nice sign. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 2, 2016 23:16:48 GMT -5
Marquette is not a very good team. They have two tall players, one of which is quite good and the other of which is above average. The one that is very good, and a freshman, got worked by two of our freshmen tonight. I don't consider the Hoyas a very good team at this point because they haven't proven it. By that same metric, neither have the Golden Eagles. And they lost to us by 10 and to the Hall by 20. How are they very good? Check back in when they get beaten by Villanova. Yeah, they aren't very good, and more importantly, they were a good match up for us because they don't really shoot 3s or jump shots well. Still, as with the DePaul game, i think we are doing a better job switching and closing out on shooters. I agree on all counts. I'm happiest to see the switching and closeouts because it only gets more difficult from here. I certainly wouldn't want Marquette's schedule right now. |
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