Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 8, 2015 16:24:04 GMT -5
We annihilated a well-coached team by a shade under 20 points with our bench playing most of the minutes down the stretch and the refs seemingly actively working the money line and half the board thinks the game was a disaster. Never ceases to amaze me.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 8, 2015 16:29:00 GMT -5
We annihilated a well-coached team by a shade under 20 points with our bench playing most of the minutes down the stretch and the refs seemingly actively working the money line and half the board thinks the game was a disaster. Never ceases to amaze me. While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 8, 2015 16:45:29 GMT -5
While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did. I mean, I know you aren't really looking for specifics and this is just rhetoric...but I think you are slightly exagerating what these other teams do in the OOC. Sure there are a couple 30 point wins out there, and one monster 51 point win over mighty Chaminade, but mostly its well below 40 points: UNC - 24 (Temple), 27 (Fairfield), 20 (Wofford), 11 (Northwestern), 10 (Kansas St.), 8 (Maryland), 33 (Davidson) KU -- 37 (N. Colorado), 51 (Chaminade), 19 (UCLA), 7 (Vanderbilt), 33 (Loyola MD), 6 (Harvard) UK -- 13 (Albany), 30 (NJIT), 11 (Duke), 15 (Wright St.), 20 (BU), 19 (USF), 12 (Ill. St.) XU -- 9 (Miami OH), 22 (MO), 16 (Mich), 18 (N. Kentucky), 19 (Bama), 10 (USC), 29 (Dayton), 29 (W. Kentucky) VU -- 37 (Fairleigh Dickinson), 24 (Neb), 35 (E. Tenn. St.), 20 (Akron), 15 (Stanford), 17 (Ga Tech.), 14 (St. Joes) SU -- 10 (Lehigh), 13 (St. Bonaventure), 11 (Elon), 13 (Charlotte), 3 (UConn), 7 (Texas AM)
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 8, 2015 16:53:07 GMT -5
While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did. The problem is a lot of people want inconsistent things. They want 40 point wins, but they also want the people at the bottom of the depth chart to get significant minutes. Granted, the bottom of our depth chart is better than it has been in years and probably should have played better, but putting out different lineups that are abnormal is going to lead to things like losing the huge lead. This actually proves the point others have made in other threads - you can play the bottom of your bench / experiment, but it comes at a cost. Against Brown, it didn't matter. But, this probably gives some insight into why JT3 doesn't experiment with the bench when it's a closer game.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 8, 2015 16:55:30 GMT -5
Not sure why people are defending our second half play. In response to the FT disparity, perhaps JT3 could talk with the players about fouling less on defense and having a better mix of jump shooting and aggressive drives to the hole where you might get fouled more often. No coach is going to start practice this afternoon, "hey boys, let's just forget about that second half as the refs were out to get us." I think, in a constructive way, most coaches would complement the team's first half play, and then review problem areas in the second half that led us to be outscored 42-28 by Brown. Not good. Nobody was defending the play, but your criticism lacked any nuance whatsoever. Plus, I don't think JTIII needs to say anything about the refs during practice since he collected, what, his third technical ever due to his in-game reaction to the officiating. As much as my analysis lacked "nuance," yours and others provide lame excuses for poor play. 21-9 in the last 8 minutes was pitiful. But don't forget that Brown outscored Georgetown by 2 in the first 12 minutes of the second half. Brown was aggressive and we basically stunk up the second half. No more nuance necessary than that. I hope the coaches used our lackluster second half as a teaching tool. Totally unacceptable. Brown is a dreadful team. I might not be so hopped up about this normally, but Radford occurred a couple weeks ago. This team needs to be drilled on how to maintain intensity, discipline, and bring it for 40 minutes, regardless of opponent. Nuance? 42-28. Brown. You let up on things like this, and you'll get a few more Radfords.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Dec 8, 2015 17:05:17 GMT -5
Nobody was defending the play, but your criticism lacked any nuance whatsoever. Plus, I don't think JTIII needs to say anything about the refs during practice since he collected, what, his third technical ever due to his in-game reaction to the officiating. As much as my analysis lacked "nuance," yours and others provide lame excuses for poor play. 21-9 in the last 8 minutes was pitiful. But don't forget that Brown outscored Georgetown by 2 in the first 12 minutes of the second half. Brown was aggressive and we basically stunk up the second half. No more nuance necessary than that. I hope the coaches used our lackluster second half as a teaching tool. Totally unacceptable. Brown is a dreadful team. I might not be so hopped up about this normally, but Radford occurred a couple weeks ago. This team needs to be drilled on how to maintain intensity, discipline, and bring it for 40 minutes, regardless of opponent. Nuance? 42-28. Brown. You let up on things like this, and you'll get a few more Radfords. It's sentiments like this that make the board increasingly unbearable to read. We lose, people are angry. We win by a small margin, people are angry we didn't win by enough. We win by a large margin, III didn't use his bench enough and doesn't develop his players enough. Seriously people...WE JUST WON A GAME BY 17 POINTS. AND WE JUST BEAT SYRACUSE. Take a damn deep breath and just enjoy it. You don't have to be hypercritical all the damn time. WE WON.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 8, 2015 17:20:47 GMT -5
Great job by Bradley getting hook shot looks in the lane, making plays so much faster than he used to. Geez CtoC, I hate to correct you but.... according to Hoya lore, Rich Chvotkin would never say it like that - "Bradley getting hook shots in the lane". Back in Othella's day, it was always as follows: "Othella, with a hooker in the lane!" Much more colorful, don't you think?
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 8, 2015 17:50:41 GMT -5
Great job by Bradley getting hook shot looks in the lane, making plays so much faster than he used to. Geez CtoC, I hate to correct you but.... according to Hoya lore, Rich Chvotkin would never say it like that - "Bradley getting hook shots in the lane". Back in Othella's day, it was always as follows: "Othella, with a hooker in the lane!" Much more colorful, don't you think? Indeed, SirSaxa! Gotta go with Dr. Rich's nomenclature. Edited the original post to reflect.
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blueeagle
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Win or lose, it's the school we choose.
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Post by blueeagle on Dec 8, 2015 17:56:38 GMT -5
I did find our lack of focus at the end of the game annoying. But I find posters constantly wringing their hands about not winning by 40 against a bad Ivy League team infinitely more annoying.
Bradley Hayes and Reggie Cameron have been revelations. Copeland has been consistent. DSR and LJ have been serviceable. The freshmen have been impressive as freshmen. Paul White has looked out of step and Tre Campbell has looked frenetic (in a not so good way). I think Paul and Tre will catch up as they get their game legs underneath them.
I think the team's success (especially Bradley and Reggie's) can be attributed partly to being in great physical shape. Top to bottom, our guys look like they have really paid attention to improving strength and conditioning. With our deeper rotation, this will definitely serve us well during the grind in March.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 8, 2015 18:56:23 GMT -5
While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did. I mean, I know you aren't really looking for specifics and this is just rhetoric...but I think you are slightly exagerating what these other teams do in the OOC. Sure there are a couple 30 point wins out there, and one monster 51 point win over mighty Chaminade, but mostly its well below 40 points: UNC - 24 (Temple), 27 (Fairfield), 20 (Wofford), 11 (Northwestern), 10 (Kansas St.), 8 (Maryland), 33 (Davidson) KU -- 37 (N. Colorado), 51 (Chaminade), 19 (UCLA), 7 (Vanderbilt), 33 (Loyola MD), 6 (Harvard) UK -- 13 (Albany), 30 (NJIT), 11 (Duke), 15 (Wright St.), 20 (BU), 19 (USF), 12 (Ill. St.) XU -- 9 (Miami OH), 22 (MO), 16 (Mich), 18 (N. Kentucky), 19 (Bama), 10 (USC), 29 (Dayton), 29 (W. Kentucky) VU -- 37 (Fairleigh Dickinson), 24 (Neb), 35 (E. Tenn. St.), 20 (Akron), 15 (Stanford), 17 (Ga Tech.), 14 (St. Joes) SU -- 10 (Lehigh), 13 (St. Bonaventure), 11 (Elon), 13 (Charlotte), 3 (UConn), 7 (Texas AM) Yeah but that's also so far, and to an extent a result of the new rules probably because there are always a fair amount of the blowouts I talked about
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 8, 2015 21:31:31 GMT -5
As much as my analysis lacked "nuance," yours and others provide lame excuses for poor play. 21-9 in the last 8 minutes was pitiful. But don't forget that Brown outscored Georgetown by 2 in the first 12 minutes of the second half. Brown was aggressive and we basically stunk up the second half. No more nuance necessary than that. I hope the coaches used our lackluster second half as a teaching tool. Totally unacceptable. Brown is a dreadful team. I might not be so hopped up about this normally, but Radford occurred a couple weeks ago. This team needs to be drilled on how to maintain intensity, discipline, and bring it for 40 minutes, regardless of opponent. Nuance? 42-28. Brown. You let up on things like this, and you'll get a few more Radfords. It's sentiments like this that make the board increasingly unbearable to read. We lose, people are angry. We win by a small margin, people are angry we didn't win by enough. We win by a large margin, III didn't use his bench enough and doesn't develop his players enough. Seriously people...WE JUST WON A GAME BY 17 POINTS. AND WE JUST BEAT SYRACUSE. Take a damn deep breath and just enjoy it. You don't have to be hypercritical all the damn time. WE WON. Couldn't agree more.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 8, 2015 22:38:12 GMT -5
While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did. I mean, I know you aren't really looking for specifics and this is just rhetoric...but I think you are slightly exagerating what these other teams do in the OOC. Sure there are a couple 30 point wins out there, and one monster 51 point win over mighty Chaminade, but mostly its well below 40 points: UNC - 24 (Temple), 27 (Fairfield), 20 (Wofford), 11 (Northwestern), 10 (Kansas St.), 8 (Maryland), 33 (Davidson) KU -- 37 (N. Colorado), 51 (Chaminade), 19 (UCLA), 7 (Vanderbilt), 33 (Loyola MD), 6 (Harvard) UK -- 13 (Albany), 30 (NJIT), 11 (Duke), 15 (Wright St.), 20 (BU), 19 (USF), 12 (Ill. St.) XU -- 9 (Miami OH), 22 (MO), 16 (Mich), 18 (N. Kentucky), 19 (Bama), 10 (USC), 29 (Dayton), 29 (W. Kentucky) VU -- 37 (Fairleigh Dickinson), 24 (Neb), 35 (E. Tenn. St.), 20 (Akron), 15 (Stanford), 17 (Ga Tech.), 14 (St. Joes) SU -- 10 (Lehigh), 13 (St. Bonaventure), 11 (Elon), 13 (Charlotte), 3 (UConn), 7 (Texas AM) You can add XU by 35 tonight over Wright State. The Musketeers are annihilating people.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Dec 9, 2015 8:23:11 GMT -5
While I agree with you, you have to concede there is some merit to the fact that we looked like we could cruise to a 40+ point win and took our foot off the gas in a way that a UNC, or a KU, or a UK, or hell even and Xavier or Villanova wouldn't have. I do think it was and is important to get the backups developed, I just think the crowd concerned about how we played in the second half were probably just hoping to see a 40 point victory or two to help validate out regular season success relative to our postseason failures. After all, even cuse blows teams out by 30 and 40 in the OOC. I get that Brown is a good, well-coached team, but they were getting spanked and we were the ones that stopped the onslaught, not anything they did. The problem is a lot of people want inconsistent things. They want 40 point wins, but they also want the people at the bottom of the depth chart to get significant minutes. Granted, the bottom of our depth chart is better than it has been in years and probably should have played better, but putting out different lineups that are abnormal is going to lead to things like losing the huge lead. This actually proves the point others have made in other threads - you can play the bottom of your bench / experiment, but it comes at a cost. Against Brown, it didn't matter. But, this probably gives some insight into why JT3 doesn't experiment with the bench when it's a closer game. Exactly right. I was shocked (but very happy) with the extent to which III used the bench (my only quibble is I would have like to see T. Mourning get a few more minutes!). The play was sloppy for sure, but look at the various lineups we had on the floor the 2nd half. Isn't this what we were all clamoring for? It was frustrating for sure and I wish we had played better in the 2nd half. But I am ok sacrificing a 35 point win for a 17 point win in the hope that the playing time will have long term benefits. I would not be willing to sacrifice a W for that purpose - and thankfully III appears to feel the same way.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 9, 2015 10:12:26 GMT -5
It's sentiments like this that make the board increasingly unbearable to read. We lose, people are angry. We win by a small margin, people are angry we didn't win by enough. We win by a large margin, III didn't use his bench enough and doesn't develop his players enough. Seriously people...WE JUST WON A GAME BY 17 POINTS. AND WE JUST BEAT SYRACUSE. Take a damn deep breath and just enjoy it. You don't have to be hypercritical all the damn time. WE WON. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't disagree more. Radford happened. Maryland last 6 minutes happened. Syracuse last 10 minutes happened. Brown second half happened. I would hope the coaching staff walked in hot Tuesday afternoon at practice. This team will break our hearts with lapses in effort and discipline. Have to keep fighting to improve. Enjoy the Brown win? Never heard anything more silly. This team needs to find the eye of the tiger.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 9, 2015 10:32:28 GMT -5
Couldn't disagree more. Radford happened. Maryland last 6 minutes happened. Syracuse last 10 minutes happened. Brown second half happened. I would hope the coaching staff walked in hot Tuesday afternoon at practice. This team will break our hearts with lapses in effort and discipline. Have to keep fighting to improve. Enjoy the Brown win? Never heard anything more silly. This team needs to find the eye of the tiger. It's cute when you act like we are on the coaching staff.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 9, 2015 10:40:40 GMT -5
This will not be a popular opinion, but it is also unrealistic to expect (as a fan) that the team is going to play with the highest level of intensity, energy, and precision every minute of every game, particularly in the weaker games of the out of conference schedule. Granted, I realize from a coaching perspective that's exactly what you want, otherwise the guys can get complacent and start giving less than 100%. While that's a laudable goal, it's simply not realistic.
I have no doubt that the coaching staff will go back to the second half of the Brown game and see what they need to work on. After the Syracuse game, JT3 acknowledged that the team did not perform well against their trapping defense, so there's no reason to think the coaching staff is going to simply ignore it.
Clearly, there are things to work on. Whether that merits the coach being "hot" in Tuesday's practice is a whole other story. I would rather have the coaching staff provide a thoughtful analysis of what happened and have a plan to improve, rather than being "hot" for its own sake.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 9, 2015 11:25:36 GMT -5
Agree and disagree. Redford was an outlier. First game, young team. Stuff happens. Brown was no big deal. 10 guys play real minutes leaves you open to large swing in points. Still won by 17. Maryland is a possible final four team so losing a tough one to them is a plus in my mind They really slaughtered UCONN last night). But Syracuse was a little different. Let up at the end was concerning. But we have a very young team and when you take seniors DSR and Hayes off the court you have to expect, at least early in the season, a fall off in performance. If we blow a BE conference game in February in the last 5 minutes then I will start to worry.
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 9, 2015 11:28:19 GMT -5
We do seem to have an issue with blowing large leads, but I'm not sure if thats a result of us getting lazy and unfocused or JT3 experimenting at the end of games with different lineups, etc. Syracuse is also a very good team this year so it would be quite the feat if we could hold a twenty point lead over them till the end of the game.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Dec 9, 2015 12:13:19 GMT -5
Couldn't disagree more. Radford happened. Maryland last 6 minutes happened. Syracuse last 10 minutes happened. Brown second half happened. I would hope the coaching staff walked in hot Tuesday afternoon at practice. This team will break our hearts with lapses in effort and discipline. Have to keep fighting to improve. Enjoy the Brown win? Never heard anything more silly. This team needs to find the eye of the tiger. Sheesh. I wonder how things play out in your mind. Do you imagine that III walks into the first practice after Brown, or Radford, or whatever, and just says "hey great job guys! Let's all skip practice today--Ben and Jerry's sundaes are on me!" You really think the coaching staff doesn't look at what happened in any of those games and works with the team to improve? Or is it just us highly knowledgeable keyboard warriors that are keeping them honest? Give me a break. The best team in all of basketball (possibly the best team of all time) nearly let a mediocre Pacers team come back from 30+ down. Guess what, when you're up big and you are trying to get younger players minutes, and are trying out different lineups, mistakes and lapses will happen. I'll say it again: the FREAKING WARRIORS HAD LAPSES LAST NIGHT. It happens, and it definitely happens with college players. Get over it and stop acting like you're so tough and would never ever ever ever lose focus if you were one of the players or coaches, because no one but you believes it. Nice job Hoyas, keep improving, and on to the next game.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 9, 2015 12:15:02 GMT -5
Couldn't disagree more. Radford happened. Maryland last 6 minutes happened. Syracuse last 10 minutes happened. Brown second half happened. I would hope the coaching staff walked in hot Tuesday afternoon at practice. This team will break our hearts with lapses in effort and discipline. Have to keep fighting to improve. Enjoy the Brown win? Never heard anything more silly. This team needs to find the eye of the tiger. It's cute when you act like we are on the coaching staff. You seem content with repeated demonstrations of in-game complacency and lapses of judgment. I guess you have different expectations than me this season. I think this team can be quite good if it can match its athleticism and depth with consistent intensity and attention to detail.
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