Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 1, 2015 17:37:14 GMT -5
Reasons why we lost, in order: - We can't shoot. We continually leave easy points on the court at the charity stripe and the three point line. Every other good team in college basketball takes advantage of these easy points, and we can't shoot at either. It's a killer, and it was a huge contributor to mucking up the offense. You can hang back on Smith and the cuts when no one but DSR is a threat from three.
- We didn't force any turnovers. This killed us on defense, obviously, but also on offense, where we usually can get another 6-10 points off a big steal days.
- Some of the worst decision-making I have ever seen. From everything that Hopkins did to DSR not taking even more shots to Josh Smith forcing it way too often... the result was sixteen turnovers and some critically bad D at points.
- We got outhustled. The numbers don't show it, but down the stretch we got out-rebounded, even on a FT. If we can't shoot, we need to win the possession battle and between the turnovers and rebounding, the net was that we didn't.
- They were hot shooting. 3pt D was not bad. They made a ton of contested shots and shot 82% from the line.
- Foul trouble on DSR and Smith and Thompson's over-carefulness with the former.
- Thompson's over-reliance on his upperclassmen. I know it's an unpopular opinion here, but he's running out an NIT lineup right now. Maybe the freshmen aren't ready, maybe they are. But give Copeland more than seven minutes to tell. Hopkins was horrifically bad on both sides of the ball -- in the key stretch he gave up a 3 on the break, was late on two rotations leading to fouls, missed the front end of a one on one and got abused by Stainbrook. Trawick had a pretty terrible game, too, as he's neither a threat nor providing great D -- between them they committed nine fouls in just 54 minutes. Josh had a pretty bad game and Bowen was contained. I'm not saying pull all of them, but when it wasn't working, we needed to give the better talent more extended shots. This team went to the NIT last year, and I'm not sure a Smith-Starks switch changes that. Last night's disaster was a perfect time to see if Copeland could step up or if a lineup more heavily frosh would work better.
Other notes ... I already hate Chris Mack. God, what a freaking whiner. On every call. I thought when we lost Boeheim and Dixon I wouldn't have to deal with a coach like that. I guess not. Is he supposed to be an adult? ... I do think this was a tough game in a lot of respects and could see us coming back easy on Saturday, but I'm with the folks that worry that this team will not put together consistency ... College officiating is terrible. I really think they need to go to an official in a tv booth -- the number of obvious missed baseline calls or traveling or shoves that occurs on the floor is insane. This has little to do with the Xavier game, but I feel like it any close game it's somewhat a random result given I think officials are pretty close to 50% levels of accuracy these days. Good post but the one that really hit home is -- "he's running out an NIT lineup right now. Maybe the freshmen aren't ready, maybe they are. But give Copeland more than seven minutes to tell. ... we needed to give the better talent more extended shots. This team went to the NIT last year, and I'm not sure a Smith-Starks switch changes that. Last night's disaster was a perfect time to see if Copeland could step up or if a lineup more heavily frosh would work better." AMEN.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Jan 1, 2015 17:50:00 GMT -5
Those calling for less Hopkins and more of the freshmen are understanably frustrated with Hopkins offense, but one factor confronting the coaching staff is the cost of playing Josh Smith on the defense. Yes, Smith has been much improved on defense this year, but he is still not mobile and the longer he plays the less effective he becomes. Hopkins is far superior at this time to any of the other 4-5 options from purely a defensive standpoint. So to the coaches it is somewhat a case of pick your poison. The problem is compounded when you add Peak and Jabril to the lineup as that leaves you with 4 players who do not contribute perimeter scoring. So as frustrated as it gets, I am not certain what the options are unless the staff just goes small and uses White and Copeland at the 4 and places Hopkins as purely a backup post. That strategy would not have worked against a big team like Xavier and neither White nor Copeland could handle the size of that frontline without Hopkins in the game to provide help.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 1, 2015 17:58:15 GMT -5
UGLY GAME VERY VERY UGLY ONE of the worst ive seen in a long while.. MUST MOVE ON cause we MUST beat CReigton on sat or .............................................MUST WIN yup season has begun and were in LAST place
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 1, 2015 17:59:29 GMT -5
We simply have to anticipate better and plan to outsmart our opponents more. Xavier basically came into this game with a script on how to take us down. They stuck to the script to the letter and the result was they took us down. We have got to learn to mix things up! We cannot just rely on Josh Smith and DSR when everybody in the building knows we are looking at just these two play makers. Plain and simple, we were outsmarted last night. I would love to see JT III actually switching things up more and saying, "Look here fellas, they a are going to really come after Josh and DSR. So we are going to rely on Peak or White more tonight." I believe we have the pieces. We need to have the faith to stretch the defense. Mmmmm...I don't see it as Xavier having a gameplan that we didn't adjust to, per se. I see it more as Xavier having a good mix of personnel to frustrate what we like to do, and us still lacking a reliable third scoring option. Less "darn, why didn't we choose to switch things up" and more "at this point, sometimes we can't switch things up". On personnel, Xavier presents a big center (that negates Smith's ability to bully inside), long athletes on the wings (that negates the advantage we have going to Bowen/White/Ike off the bench) and quick guards (that highlights one of our defensive weaknesses--DSR can't stay in front of guys on the drive*). (*We talk about three point defense, which we struggle with in spurts, but one real difference between this team and, say, the 2013 team is that Otto and Co. excelled at denying drives into the lane...it's basically why we beat Lousiville, by stopping the same pick and roll play the entire final 5 minutes. We give up easy drives into the lane way too often, which is one root cause of our poor perimeter rotations that lead to open threes.) On the third scoring option...it's risky business to have only two scorers out there, especially a fragile one like Smith prone to fouls and fatigue. If you lose one, the defense can key on the other, and last night we lost both--DSR to foul trouble, then Smith to good defense. It's no accident that we made our only credible scoring run during the part of the second half when they both played together. Multiple scoring options is one of the two keys to me (with lockdown defense) in having a great team. One of the remarkable things about our 2008 team was how many different players contributed to our last second wins--Hibbert vs UConn, Sapp vs. WVU, Wallace vs. Nova and Marquette, Summers vs. Louisville (to say nothing of Rivers defensive plays at the end of Nova and Cuse). Our third scoring option varies from game to game. We beat Indiana in part because Aaron Bowen had a career game and a was a reliable third option to DSR and Smith who were both on. We missed out on Kansas in part because DSR was off that game, so even though Smith was on and Peak had a great game**, we were still missing something down the stretch when Smith tired. (**Which is why I think Aaron Bowen played so little--we desperately needed another scorer with DSR off and Smith clearly tiring down the stretch.) It may be the third slot is constantly rotating all season, and we adjust on the fly to meet it--which, despite some comments in this thread, I think the Coach has done very well at this season. Some days it's LJ Peak, some days Bowen goes nuts, Paul White might have a strong performance, and I mean--Ike had that one game vs Butler (and we played him a ton...adjustments!). But yeah, with all this going on, the existential question of "uhhhhhhh, so when are they gonna put it together?" remains unanswered. I raise the 2008 and 2013 teams in part to say: don't compare this team to those types of teams. Too much "ya know, the 2007 team had three losses and didn't turn it on until mid-January" in the Hoyaverse over the past two months. I've always thought the more realistic comparison was 2011-2012, a team that was also integrating four freshmen into a upperclassmen-heavy lineup, almost beat Kansas, and kinda 2-1'd their way through segments on the route to a 12-6 BE finish. Which, I still think, to answer another thread, is the goal for this team in a conference where--surprise--there are some good teams #2 to #7 this year.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,443
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 1, 2015 18:00:04 GMT -5
Ps for whatever reason the froah played like frosh only little tre helped with his quickness on d but then chucked up that bad shot when we had it like down to two BUT they are freshmen This is a GAME played by 18-22 year olds GO HOYAS BEAT THOSE BLUE JAYS MUST WIN IS CREIGHTON THE BLUER JAYS? GLAD AT LEAST MCDERMOTT IS GONE MUST WIN>
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,443
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 1, 2015 18:00:44 GMT -5
PS XAVIER VERY GOOD BUT WE PLAYED VERY BAD
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 1, 2015 18:02:04 GMT -5
Mmmmm...I don't see it as Xavier having a gameplan that we didn't adjust to, per se. I see it more as Xavier having a good mix of personnel to frustrate what we like to do, and us still lacking a reliable third scoring option. Less "darn, why didn't we choose to switch things up" and more "at this point, sometimes we can't switch things up". On personnel, Xavier presents a big center (that negates Smith's ability to bully inside), long athletes on the wings (that negates the advantage we have going to Bowen/White/Ike off the bench) and quick guards (that highlights one of our defensive weaknesses--DSR can't stay in front of guys on the drive*). (*We talk about three point defense, which we struggle with in spurts, but one real difference between this team and, say, the 2013 team is that Otto and Co. excelled at denying drives into the lane...it's basically why we beat Lousiville, by stopping the same pick and roll play the entire final 5 minutes. We give up easy drives into the lane way too often, which is one root cause of our poor perimeter rotations that lead to open threes.) On the third scoring option...it's risky business to have only two scorers out there, especially a fragile one like Smith prone to fouls and fatigue. If you lose one, the defense can key on the other, and last night we lost both--DSR to foul trouble, then Smith to good defense. It's no accident that we made our only credible scoring run during the part of the second half when they both played together. Multiple scoring options is one of the two keys to me (with lockdown defense) in having a great team. One of the remarkable things about our 2008 team was how many different players contributed to our last second wins--Hibbert vs UConn, Sapp vs. WVU, Wallace vs. Nova and Marquette, Summers vs. Louisville (to say nothing of Rivers defensive plays at the end of Nova and Cuse). Our third scoring option varies from game to game. We beat Indiana in part because Aaron Bowen had a career game and a was a reliable third option to DSR and Smith who were both on. We missed out on Kansas in part because DSR was off that game, so even though Smith was on and Peak had a great game**, we were still missing something down the stretch when Smith tired. (**Which is why I think Aaron Bowen played so little--we desperately needed another scorer with DSR off and Smith clearly tiring down the stretch.) It may be the third slot is constantly rotating all season, and we adjust on the fly to meet it--which, despite some comments in this thread, I think the Coach has done very well at this season. Some days it's LJ Peak, some days Bowen goes nuts, Paul White might have a strong performance, and I mean--Ike had that one game vs Butler (and we played him a ton...adjustments!). But yeah, with all this going on, the existential question of "uhhhhhhh, so when are they gonna put it together?" remains unanswered. I raise the 2008 and 2013 teams in part to say: don't compare this team to those types of teams. Too much "ya know, the 2007 team had three losses and didn't turn it on until mid-January" in the Hoyaverse over the past two months. I've always thought the more realistic comparison was 2011-2012, a team that was also integrating four freshmen into a upperclassmen-heavy lineup, almost beat Kansas, and kinda 2-1'd their way through segments on the route to a 12-6 BE finish. Which, I still think, to answer another thread, is the goal for this team in a conference where--surprise--there are some good teams #2 to #7 this year.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 1, 2015 18:04:58 GMT -5
FLHoya, here is my response:
How could you have missed the fact that Xavier, a very well coached team, had our game plan in their back pockets. Heck the coach was even yelling to remind everyone that we were going to try to get the ball in to Josh and that "Jabril is a slasher, don't forget it." The point that I was making, however, is that we have to move beyond playing predictable ball. There are other guys on this team other than DSR and Josh that can score. We need to unleash them, as it were, catch our opponents of guard once in a while. Now, having said that, I am not saying forget about Josh and DSR. They should be more a part of the natural flow of the game rather than the only focus of this team.
Also, I keep saying this each year for the last ten years--LET THE KIDS RUN!
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 1, 2015 18:08:08 GMT -5
We have Jabril; we have Hopkins; we have DSR; we have peak, White, Copeland, and Cambell, all of whom love to get out and run!
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 1, 2015 18:10:55 GMT -5
The freshmen were extremely weak in virtually all aspects last night. More of them was not the solution.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Filo on Jan 1, 2015 18:35:10 GMT -5
The freshmen were extremely weak in virtually all aspects last night. More of them was not the solution. I didn't get to watch the game very closely for periods, so not sure of this but --in Copeland's whole 7 minutes of play, you think he was that bad to warrant keeping him out?
I assume he is being held out to some degree because of defensive issues (difficulty in grasping the system that requires you to help out and leave your man wide open for a three. lol.), but I would think he would bring a nice dimension on the offensive end.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 1, 2015 19:08:29 GMT -5
FLHoya, here is my response: How could you have missed the fact that Xavier, a very well coached team, had our game plan in their back pockets. Heck the coach was even yelling to remind everyone that we were going to try to get the ball in to Josh and that "Jabril is a slasher, don't forget it." The point that I was making, however, is that we have to move beyond playing predictable ball. There are other guys on this team other than DSR and Josh that can score. We need to unleash them, as it were, catch our opponents of guard once in a while. Now, having said that, I am not saying forget about Josh and DSR. They should be more a part of the natural flow of the game rather than the only focus of this team. Also, I keep saying this each year for the last ten years--LET THE KIDS RUN! We run a ton! We ran so much against Indiana, the frenetic pace of the game was all the announcers discussed. That said, we aren't the early eighties Lakers. We arent going to run off a made basket. So without turnovers or solid defensive rebounding, how exactly do we run? We did press to try to influence the pace and create turnovers but it didnt work. Coach constantly is motioning to push the pace off of rebounds, so he agrees. Its just not always possible if the numbers aren't there. If you don't mean "run," but mean "take earlier shots in the half court," well, I don't think that's been a problem this year at all. In fact, more often its been the opposite. As for adjusting to Xavier's knowledge of our sets, I think our players have become too one-dimensional to some degree, except for DSR. Anyone with one good eye know that all Jabril seems comfortable doing is driving in a straight line to the basket. It's not rocket science to point that out. But there's no adjustment to be made there from a coaching standpoint -- he just needs to take and make more threes. Throughout the year, the freshmen were quite "unleashed" (particularly Peak). He seems to have gotten less aggressive as shots haven't fallen, but that isn't a strategic decision either.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 1, 2015 19:11:42 GMT -5
The freshmen were extremely weak in virtually all aspects last night. More of them was not the solution. I didn't get to watch the game very closely for periods, so not sure of this but --in Copeland's whole 7 minutes of play, you think he was that bad to warrant keeping him out?
I assume he is being held out to some degree because of defensive issues (difficulty in grasping the system that requires you to help out and leave your man wide open for a three. lol.), but I would think he would bring a nice dimension on the offensive end. He failed to make any attempt to box out at least twice that I recall, lost track of his man on defense multiple times, missed his 3point attempt badly. Looked extremely unsettled. I realize that playing time in the conference I'd the only way to overcome that, but struggling to fight back in your confetence opener is not the time for those minutes.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by guru on Jan 1, 2015 19:17:40 GMT -5
Isn't just about every post on this board an opinion? For some reason you took offense to my opinion as presented in my original post - most of which you admit you agree with by the end of your post here - and decided to respond as if I was posting it as fact. Didn't realize this was a "personal dispute". I mean for gods sake it's a fan message board. Don't take things so personally and you'll do fine. As for your bona fides - impressive indeed. Good on you. I'm sure we've been at many many games together these past four decades. Go Hoyas. Point, again, is that the team is making many of the same mistakes that have plagued them in the JT3 years. I hope you're right that this year the staff can bring out their best potential Part of the point is that your opinions are factually incorrect. We don't historically have any kind of issue defending the three. Even this year opponents are only hitting 34% of their threes and while Xavier hit .500 from three, they were 4-5 early, which means they finished 2-7, with one of those being a pull-up on a fast break when Mikael decided he'd rather not take the ball handler. So, after the quick start -- most of which were well defended -- they went 1-6 in the half court offense. Umm, isn't that adjusting to a hot shooting team? So yeah, the issue is that you are just wrong. Same with the same old "We never make adjustments/we can never comeback." Most teams don't come back, because when you are down by a lot, the opposing team is usually both a better team and playing better. People count the hits and ignore the misses -- people ignore the data that contradicts their pre-conceived notions and accept the data that confirms it. That's why I always want to see the box score before posting after watching the game. I do it, too. Xavier started off hot from 3 and continually got open looks - and the shots they hit at the start directly contributed to the crowd getting into a frenzy and giving the musketeers added confidence. The fact that they cooled off later had little to do with any improvement in our defense. No offense, but maybe watch the game again instead of staring at the box score. The fact is that teams continuously get wide open looks at 3 point shots against us, and they have for years. And we rarely if ever figure out how to shut down a hot shooter once he's gotten hot, from Stephen Curry to Brannen Greene and everyone in between and, unless something changes suddenly, going forward.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 1, 2015 19:19:18 GMT -5
The freshmen were extremely weak in virtually all aspects last night. More of them was not the solution. They weren't though. None of the upperclassmen they'd be taking time from was playing well - that's the key. Campbell made one decision-making error and Copeland barely got to play. This board wildly overestimates the performance of some players.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 1, 2015 19:20:59 GMT -5
I didn't get to watch the game very closely for periods, so not sure of this but --in Copeland's whole 7 minutes of play, you think he was that bad to warrant keeping him out?
I assume he is being held out to some degree because of defensive issues (difficulty in grasping the system that requires you to help out and leave your man wide open for a three. lol.), but I would think he would bring a nice dimension on the offensive end. He failed to make any attempt to box out at least twice that I recall, lost track of his man on defense multiple times, missed his 3point attempt badly. Looked extremely unsettled. I realize that playing time in the conference I'd the only way to overcome that, but struggling to fight back in your confetence opener is not the time for those minutes. After we tied it, Hopkins dropped off the ball man on a fast break (open three), fouled twice on late rotations, got beat like a drum by Stainbrook, missed the front end of a one and one, gave up a put back dunk and committed a dumb turnover/missed shot. I'll take Copeland, thank you very much.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 1, 2015 20:49:36 GMT -5
I think many valid points here but a few things I think worth repeating/emphasizing:
1. Don't underrate Xavier. They are a very good team and one that, at least at this point in the season, is better than the Hoyas. This isn't Depaul. They are good and there is no shame in losing to them on their home court.
2. We need to play Hopkins and Trawick less. In particular, Hopkins. He is a massive offensive liability and his occasional bright spots aren't enough to justify the time he gets. Trawick I would rather shoot 3s than try to force things off the dribble, every game I feel like he has at least 2 costly turnovers due to his poor decision making.
3. We are immensely more talented this year than last. Last year's team came close to the NCAAS and the talent level was far less than this year's team. There should be no talk of a bubble with this group, we should be comfortably in the NCAAS if we play to our abilities (which we did not against Xavier).
4. Our freshman are GOOD. Play them more. Even if this costs us a game or two because of inexperience, it will more than pay off in March when it matters most.
5. DSR should shoot more. Period.
6. We can defend the 3 much better but we also seem to have horrendous luck in this department, i.e., even when we contest 3s well teams seem to make more against us than they should. Incredibly frustrating.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 1, 2015 20:59:40 GMT -5
Okay, here's a question for the Board. Why do we always seem to play better against the Floridas, Dukes, Indianas, Wisconsins, N. Carolinas of the world than the Ohios, Davidsons, FGCUs? I think if we could figure that out it might help us win more games like last night.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 1, 2015 21:41:06 GMT -5
He failed to make any attempt to box out at least twice that I recall, lost track of his man on defense multiple times, missed his 3point attempt badly. Looked extremely unsettled. I realize that playing time in the conference I'd the only way to overcome that, but struggling to fight back in your confetence opener is not the time for those minutes. After we tied it, Hopkins dropped off the ball man on a fast break (open three), fouled twice on late rotations, got beat like a drum by Stainbrook, missed the front end of a one and one, gave up a put back dunk and committed a dumb turnover/missed shot. I'll take Copeland, thank you very much. In all fairness basically all 10 players thought the whistle had blown the play dead on that three, because it did.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 1, 2015 21:43:53 GMT -5
After we tied it, Hopkins dropped off the ball man on a fast break (open three), fouled twice on late rotations, got beat like a drum by Stainbrook, missed the front end of a one and one, gave up a put back dunk and committed a dumb turnover/missed shot. I'll take Copeland, thank you very much. In all fairness basically all 10 players thought the whistle had blown the play dead on that three, because it did. Replay showed whistle came after the shot.
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