guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,654
|
Post by guru on Jan 1, 2015 13:25:08 GMT -5
Why so self-righteously defensive? Where did I imply you couldn't disagree with my opinion? What a childish response. As to your points - do you disagree that we struggle to adjust when a team gets hot from 3 point range? It is, has been and will be, our Achilles heel on defense. The examples are too numerous to list. And whether or not you believe that I like JT3 or not is of no consequence to me. I am quite certain my Hoya fan bona fides surpass yours so I feel no need to prove my like for the guy. That said, he has specific deficiencies as a coach that have not improved over the years. That's my opinion. Clearly not yours. Seems you are the defensive one. I disagreed with your initial opinion - which was posited as established fact more than opinion - yet specifically noted that you are , of course, entitled to your own opinion. Your immediate response was "Am I not entitled to post my opinion". Made no sense. And talk about self-righteous - how the hell do you know your "Hoya fan bona fides" (wow, not too pretentious!) "surpass mine". 35 years as a fan, well over a hundred games in person, booster contributions, NCAA games - you don't know a thing about me. I don't want or need to continue a personal dispute. Your initial post certainly referenced a couple of problems we have had this year - and at times in the past. But I don't think they are as perpetual as you do. My opinion. And when you outright presume that the staff will never be able to develop these young men to their potential, you are in essence saying we do not have a very good head coach or staff. I disagreed. Strongly. My opinion Isn't just about every post on this board an opinion? For some reason you took offense to my opinion as presented in my original post - most of which you admit you agree with by the end of your post here - and decided to respond as if I was posting it as fact. Didn't realize this was a "personal dispute". I mean for gods sake it's a fan message board. Don't take things so personally and you'll do fine. As for your bona fides - impressive indeed. Good on you. I'm sure we've been at many many games together these past four decades. Go Hoyas. Point, again, is that the team is making many of the same mistakes that have plagued them in the JT3 years. I hope you're right that this year the staff can bring out their best potential
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 32,097
|
Post by DanMcQ on Jan 1, 2015 13:31:31 GMT -5
It's got to be Big East conference season if we're arguing Hoya fan bonafides. I think a reasonable assumption is that if you take the time to post here over a number of years, you pass that bar. That said, almost every one of us here is going to have at least a slightly different take on how the team is performing. It's helpful to remember this is only college basketball and to step back from your strongly held opinions and if nothing else, view the discussion with some humor (regardless if you are channeling Pollyanna or your view is Hoyas gloom and doom). It's not like we're negotiating a treaty with Kim Jong-un here (that's for the Blue & Gray forum).
|
|
njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,807
|
Post by njhoya78 on Jan 1, 2015 13:41:40 GMT -5
That's it! North Korea hacked our offense!
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 1, 2015 13:45:36 GMT -5
Guru - no problems. I took the "self-righteous" shot a little personally
We have much to work on, we can agree. I trust the staff to make these guys better. I know we all - even you (see Dan, humor!) wish for the same.
|
|
Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,673
Member is Online
|
Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 1, 2015 13:54:50 GMT -5
I guess I would give the team a C in their first true road game. It puts the pressure on us to win all (most?) of our home games. I hope the frosh especially got that out of their. system, and welcome to the Big East.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 32,097
|
Post by DanMcQ on Jan 1, 2015 13:57:42 GMT -5
I think one of the problems last night is that multiple guys forgot to trust the offense. They got to the second option and when it was covered they rushed a shot and didn't look for the next option. In many instances, that option wasn't immediately there because the other guys stopped moving, didn't cut, or did cut and were impeded (bumped, grabbed, etc). Other guys passed on open outside shots (Trawick, Cameron, others come to mind).
|
|
Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,920
|
Post by Filo on Jan 1, 2015 14:01:44 GMT -5
Guilty as charged on the doom-and-gloom. That's not usually me. Actually, it never is. I guess I am just frustrated, since I have tempered expectations the past few years but was expecting something a bit more this year. As some have pointed out, we may not be seeing that "something better" and we may just be seeing more of the same.
There are plenty of rational responses on this thread - pointing out that Cintas is a very difficult environment, posters did not expect a win, etc. For example:
A bit surprised to read the gloom and doom, I am not reading as much into this loss given it was the first true road game of the season. Remember, this was the first truly hostile experience not just for the freshmen but also Josh Smith. Not surprising, they did not handle it well. There is probably not a more difficult place to play in the league than the Cintas Center. I did not expect a win last night, and the bad start just made it feel worse, but we were not winning that game regardless. If we won that game, we would have to be a top 15 team and we are not. In a year like this, when the team obviously not elite, the goal in conference should be 0.500 on the road and 7-2 or better at home. If we can be 7-2 at home and 4-5 on the road then we will be at 11-7 which is where I think this team deserves to be and probably gets us in the NCAAs. What I have learned so far this season is the BE is better than I expected (Butler and SHU are much better), our freshman are all players but not instant impact type of guys and we have a pretty sizeable issue shooting the ball (big problem since III wants to play inside out). Sweeping DePaul and MU is a must and finding another team that we can get the sweep against because of match-ups (perhaps SJU, Creighton?) will give us some wiggle room. We 100% need to avoid being swept by teams like the 2014 SHU and MU squads.
My problem is when is this program going to put an Elite team together again? If not this year, when? Do you think the team is going to be that much better next year? I hope so, but I can very well see the same old same old unless Govan can come in and replace Josh right away. A tall task.
Will be following and rooting hard as usual, but just frustrated that we are not where I was hoping we would be. If our outside shooting is what it is, then I really don't see anything changing.
OK, now the negativity is out of my system. LOL.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,532
|
Post by prhoya on Jan 1, 2015 14:05:55 GMT -5
I think we will see something similar this year. No way will Xavier hit those shots or get the refs' calls (the foul difference in the first half was insane), we will have the crowd, and there's no way we can play worse than yesterday/today.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,532
|
Post by prhoya on Jan 1, 2015 14:29:42 GMT -5
Bad Hopkins: 30 minutes - 0 of 3 2FG; 0 of 3 FTs; 0 pts. In this game, his defense cannot diminish his lack of offense. 0 points in 30 minutes? Missed all FTs? Could be his worst offensive (per usage) performance of his career. So far this season all of his offensive numbers are down vs career. He's at 58% FT from 75% his freshman year (60s the other two years). He looked frustrated, but needs to relax and hopefully it will come to him. We need some offensive production if he's going to see so much time. If not, we start off at 4vs5.
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Jan 1, 2015 14:35:33 GMT -5
We simply have to anticipate better and plan to outsmart our opponents more. Xavier basically came into this game with a script on how to take us down. They stuck to the script to the letter and the result was they took us down. We have got to learn to mix things up! We cannot just rely on Josh Smith and DSR when everybody in the building knows we are looking at just these two play makers. Plain and simple, we were outsmarted last night. I would love to see JT III actually switching things up more and saying, "Look here fellas, they a are going to really come after Josh and DSR. So we are going to rely on Peak or White more tonight." I believe we have the pieces. We need to have the faith to stretch the defense. Mmmmm...I don't see it as Xavier having a gameplan that we didn't adjust to, per se. I see it more as Xavier having a good mix of personnel to frustrate what we like to do, and us still lacking a reliable third scoring option. Less "darn, why didn't we choose to switch things up" and more "at this point, sometimes we can't switch things up". On personnel, Xavier presents a big center (that negates Smith's ability to bully inside), long athletes on the wings (that negates the advantage we have going to Bowen/White/Ike off the bench) and quick guards (that highlights one of our defensive weaknesses--DSR can't stay in front of guys on the drive*). (*We talk about three point defense, which we struggle with in spurts, but one real difference between this team and, say, the 2013 team is that Otto and Co. excelled at denying drives into the lane...it's basically why we beat Lousiville, by stopping the same pick and roll play the entire final 5 minutes. We give up easy drives into the lane way too often, which is one root cause of our poor perimeter rotations that lead to open threes.) On the third scoring option...it's risky business to have only two scorers out there, especially a fragile one like Smith prone to fouls and fatigue. If you lose one, the defense can key on the other, and last night we lost both--DSR to foul trouble, then Smith to good defense. It's no accident that we made our only credible scoring run during the part of the second half when they both played together. Multiple scoring options is one of the two keys to me (with lockdown defense) in having a great team. One of the remarkable things about our 2008 team was how many different players contributed to our last second wins--Hibbert vs UConn, Sapp vs. WVU, Wallace vs. Nova and Marquette, Summers vs. Louisville (to say nothing of Rivers defensive plays at the end of Nova and Cuse). Our third scoring option varies from game to game. We beat Indiana in part because Aaron Bowen had a career game and a was a reliable third option to DSR and Smith who were both on. We missed out on Kansas in part because DSR was off that game, so even though Smith was on and Peak had a great game**, we were still missing something down the stretch when Smith tired. (**Which is why I think Aaron Bowen played so little--we desperately needed another scorer with DSR off and Smith clearly tiring down the stretch.) It may be the third slot is constantly rotating all season, and we adjust on the fly to meet it--which, despite some comments in this thread, I think the Coach has done very well at this season. Some days it's LJ Peak, some days Bowen goes nuts, Paul White might have a strong performance, and I mean--Ike had that one game vs Butler (and we played him a ton...adjustments!). But yeah, with all this going on, the existential question of "uhhhhhhh, so when are they gonna put it together?" remains unanswered. I raise the 2008 and 2013 teams in part to say: don't compare this team to those types of teams. Too much "ya know, the 2007 team had three losses and didn't turn it on until mid-January" in the Hoyaverse over the past two months. I've always thought the more realistic comparison was 2011-2012, a team that was also integrating four freshmen into a upperclassmen-heavy lineup, almost beat Kansas, and kinda 2-1'd their way through segments on the route to a 12-6 BE finish. Which, I still think, to answer another thread, is the goal for this team in a conference where--surprise--there are some good teams #2 to #7 this year.
|
|
drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by drquigley on Jan 1, 2015 14:36:19 GMT -5
if you recall during the Indiana game the announcer (Bilas?) kept saying how this Hoya team would run and uptempo and had the talent to be vey dangerous in February. But yesterday we saw none of that. Is it because in order to uptempo they need to play better defense, force more misses and turnovers? Or is it because we can't do that against better teams and our half court offense sucks? The Peak and White I saw yesterday were not the same guys I saw earlier this year. If Josh couldn't handle Lerch what will he do against Ochefu? Help me here. I need some positive reinforcement.
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 1, 2015 14:39:26 GMT -5
Bad Hopkins: 30 minutes - 0 of 3 2FG; 0 of 3 FTs; 0 pts. In this game, his defense cannot diminish his lack of offense. 0 points in 30 minutes? Missed all FTs? Could be his worst offensive (per usage) performance of his career. So far this season all of his offensive numbers are down vs career. He's at 58% FT from 75% his freshman year (60s the other two years). He looked frustrated, but needs to relax and hopefully it will come to him. We need some offensive production if he's going to see so much time. If not, we start off at 4vs5. The problem is that we desperately need the inside presence on defense. Josh gives us a little, but not the mobility or the shotblocking ability. Especially when Josh is out, we have literally no one with any presence down low.
|
|
rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
|
Post by rockhoya on Jan 1, 2015 14:41:05 GMT -5
This's game shows we still have a ways to go talent wise. Effort-wise. Our talent wasn't trying hard enough to get in a rhythm.
|
|
njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,807
|
Post by njhoya78 on Jan 1, 2015 14:47:19 GMT -5
if you recall during the Indiana game the announcer (Bilas?) kept saying how this Hoya team would run and uptempo and had the talent to be vey dangerous in February. But yesterday we saw none of that. Is it because in order to uptempo they need to play better defense, force more misses and turnovers? Or is it because we can't do that against better teams and our half court offense sucks? The Peak and White I saw yesterday were not the same guys I saw earlier this year. If Josh couldn't handle Lerch what will he do against Ochefu? Help me here. I need some positive reinforcement. I'm not even thinking about how Smith will do against Ochefu yet. Let's see how he does against Groselle and Ardino on Saturday first.
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Jan 1, 2015 14:56:43 GMT -5
if you recall during the Indiana game the announcer (Bilas?) kept saying how this Hoya team would run and uptempo and had the talent to be vey dangerous in February. But yesterday we saw none of that. Is it because in order to uptempo they need to play better defense, force more misses and turnovers? Or is it because we can't do that against better teams and our half court offense sucks? The Peak and White I saw yesterday were not the same guys I saw earlier this year. If Josh couldn't handle Lerch what will he do against Ochefu? Help me here. I need some positive reinforcement. One issue I have with the calls for us to "run and uptempo" or "press more" is that it seems like there's this idea that if the team decides to do either, they're immediately granted a 10 point bonus. We tend to ignore what makes these strategies possible, and don't take into account that sometimes (like last night's press) they may slightly alter tempo but not really generate scoring chances. The good kind of "run and uptempo" we're doing this season is generated by turnovers and quick changes of possession. Against Indiana, a big component of our comeback was fastbreak points generated by steals out of our zone defense. Indiana turned it over 17 times, Xavier only 10. Fewer turnovers = less running. You can decide to push tempo off defensive rebounds, and sometimes you catch a team off balance (Xavier did it to us at least twice), but it's way less reliable than using defense to generate offense. So I mean, to answer your question: yes, we can do this better when we play better defense, force more misses and turnovers. I can't help you on the last part: Josh is gonna be in for a battle against Ochefu, but that was the case before we played a game this season.
|
|
rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
|
Post by rockhoya on Jan 1, 2015 15:15:47 GMT -5
if you recall during the Indiana game the announcer (Bilas?) kept saying how this Hoya team would run and uptempo and had the talent to be vey dangerous in February. But yesterday we saw none of that. Is it because in order to uptempo they need to play better defense, force more misses and turnovers? Or is it because we can't do that against better teams and our half court offense sucks? The Peak and White I saw yesterday were not the same guys I saw earlier this year. If Josh couldn't handle Lerch what will he do against Ochefu? Help me here. I need some positive reinforcement. I'm not even thinking about how Smith will do against Ochefu yet. Let's see how he does against Groselle and Ardino on Saturday first. Hah you do realize every big in the conference dreads their matchup with Josh probably more than any other big right?
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 1, 2015 15:34:30 GMT -5
Seems you are the defensive one. I disagreed with your initial opinion - which was posited as established fact more than opinion - yet specifically noted that you are , of course, entitled to your own opinion. Your immediate response was "Am I not entitled to post my opinion". Made no sense. And talk about self-righteous - how the hell do you know your "Hoya fan bona fides" (wow, not too pretentious!) "surpass mine". 35 years as a fan, well over a hundred games in person, booster contributions, NCAA games - you don't know a thing about me. I don't want or need to continue a personal dispute. Your initial post certainly referenced a couple of problems we have had this year - and at times in the past. But I don't think they are as perpetual as you do. My opinion. And when you outright presume that the staff will never be able to develop these young men to their potential, you are in essence saying we do not have a very good head coach or staff. I disagreed. Strongly. My opinion Isn't just about every post on this board an opinion? For some reason you took offense to my opinion as presented in my original post - most of which you admit you agree with by the end of your post here - and decided to respond as if I was posting it as fact. Didn't realize this was a "personal dispute". I mean for gods sake it's a fan message board. Don't take things so personally and you'll do fine. As for your bona fides - impressive indeed. Good on you. I'm sure we've been at many many games together these past four decades. Go Hoyas. Point, again, is that the team is making many of the same mistakes that have plagued them in the JT3 years. I hope you're right that this year the staff can bring out their best potential Part of the point is that your opinions are factually incorrect. We don't historically have any kind of issue defending the three. Even this year opponents are only hitting 34% of their threes and while Xavier hit .500 from three, they were 4-5 early, which means they finished 2-7, with one of those being a pull-up on a fast break when Mikael decided he'd rather not take the ball handler. So, after the quick start -- most of which were well defended -- they went 1-6 in the half court offense. Umm, isn't that adjusting to a hot shooting team? So yeah, the issue is that you are just wrong. Same with the same old "We never make adjustments/we can never comeback." Most teams don't come back, because when you are down by a lot, the opposing team is usually both a better team and playing better. People count the hits and ignore the misses -- people ignore the data that contradicts their pre-conceived notions and accept the data that confirms it. That's why I always want to see the box score before posting after watching the game. I do it, too.
|
|
njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,807
|
Post by njhoya78 on Jan 1, 2015 15:36:03 GMT -5
Stainbrook sort of looked like he was enjoying the moment last night. I didn't see any dread or intimidation there. By the same token, I don't think that Josh wasn't up to the challenge either. Who knows what happens if his first two attempts dropped through the hoop? Might have changed the manner in which the game proceeded. They didn't and we looked uphill all night.
Yes, Smith is a handful for any center, in conference or out. That being written, if we aren't taking advantage of those mismatches, his impact on the game is minimized. Creighton's centers do not match up well against Smith; let's see if we can, in fact, take advantage of the mismatch.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 1, 2015 15:58:12 GMT -5
Reasons why we lost, in order: - We can't shoot. We continually leave easy points on the court at the charity stripe and the three point line. Every other good team in college basketball takes advantage of these easy points, and we can't shoot at either. It's a killer, and it was a huge contributor to mucking up the offense. You can hang back on Smith and the cuts when no one but DSR is a threat from three.
- We didn't force any turnovers. This killed us on defense, obviously, but also on offense, where we usually can get another 6-10 points off a big steal days.
- Some of the worst decision-making I have ever seen. From everything that Hopkins did to DSR not taking even more shots to Josh Smith forcing it way too often... the result was sixteen turnovers and some critically bad D at points.
- We got outhustled. The numbers don't show it, but down the stretch we got out-rebounded, even on a FT. If we can't shoot, we need to win the possession battle and between the turnovers and rebounding, the net was that we didn't.
- They were hot shooting. 3pt D was not bad. They made a ton of contested shots and shot 82% from the line.
- Foul trouble on DSR and Smith and Thompson's over-carefulness with the former.
- Thompson's over-reliance on his upperclassmen. I know it's an unpopular opinion here, but he's running out an NIT lineup right now. Maybe the freshmen aren't ready, maybe they are. But give Copeland more than seven minutes to tell. Hopkins was horrifically bad on both sides of the ball -- in the key stretch he gave up a 3 on the break, was late on two rotations leading to fouls, missed the front end of a one on one and got abused by Stainbrook. Trawick had a pretty terrible game, too, as he's neither a threat nor providing great D -- between them they committed nine fouls in just 54 minutes. Josh had a pretty bad game and Bowen was contained. I'm not saying pull all of them, but when it wasn't working, we needed to give the better talent more extended shots. This team went to the NIT last year, and I'm not sure a Smith-Starks switch changes that. Last night's disaster was a perfect time to see if Copeland could step up or if a lineup more heavily frosh would work better.
Other notes ... I already hate Chris Mack. God, what a freaking whiner. On every call. I thought when we lost Boeheim and Dixon I wouldn't have to deal with a coach like that. I guess not. Is he supposed to be an adult? ... I do think this was a tough game in a lot of respects and could see us coming back easy on Saturday, but I'm with the folks that worry that this team will not put together consistency ... College officiating is terrible. I really think they need to go to an official in a tv booth -- the number of obvious missed baseline calls or traveling or shoves that occurs on the floor is insane. This has little to do with the Xavier game, but I feel like it any close game it's somewhat a random result given I think officials are pretty close to 50% levels of accuracy these days.
|
|
rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
|
Post by rockhoya on Jan 1, 2015 16:34:34 GMT -5
Stainbrook sort of looked like he was enjoying the moment last night. I didn't see any dread or intimidation there. By the same token, I don't think that Josh wasn't up to the challenge either. Who knows what happens if his first two attempts dropped through the hoop? Might have changed the manner in which the game proceeded. They didn't and we looked uphill all night. Yes, Smith is a handful for any center, in conference or out. That being written, if we aren't taking advantage of those mismatches, his impact on the game is minimized. Creighton's centers do not match up well against Smith; let's see if we can, in fact, take advantage of the mismatch. We're we really watching the same game? Stainbrook was visibly frustrated all game and even in the waning moments of a blowout. And I mainly said that to say that we shouldn't be as worried about front court matchups and that I think it's easy to forget just how good Josh is. If there is one thing that's been consistent so far this year is that we've done a pretty good job of controlling opposing bigs at the rim. IIRC, Josh and Mikael haven't really lost a matchup yet this year, other than last night...
|
|