the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 10:36:48 GMT -5
You guys missed the whole point. Who cares about the stupid nickname!! My whole point is that I don't want G'town to have a player who is a great talent but not mentally tough. I don't want a player who is a sheep in wolf's clothing. Thats my whole point. I don't want players that played like they did in the Esh regime: Great in the first 35 minutes in the ballgame with a lead and looks like they will seal the deal, and then crumble in the last 5 minutes and lose ballgames they should have won by getting soft under pressure. Thats my whole point. I have nothing against KG. I simply stated that KG is good player but not a franchise player that he is hyped to be. If you are a KG fan thats fine. But you don't have to throw a fit just because I criticize one of your favorite players you obviously idolize. Last time I checked, KG never played for G'town. But from the tone of some of the replies, it sounds like he did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2005 10:55:46 GMT -5
I guess the flip side to that, the_way, is to ask "Who knows?" Macklin may be a supremely talented player who isn't clutch, or he may be the most mentally tough person ever born. The fact that he's a fan of Garnett has no bearing on that either way. I'll take my chances....
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 10:58:22 GMT -5
I guess the flip side to that, the_way, is to ask "Who knows?" Macklin may be a supremely talented player who isn't clutch, or he may be the most mentally tough person ever born. The fact that he's a fan of Garnett has no bearing on that either way. I'll take my chances.... I understand that. I just want some mentally tough players. Thats what we had back in the JT2 era, and thats what type of coach JTIII is and thats the type of players he had at Princeton. Hopefully Macklin is mentally tough.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2005 12:33:48 GMT -5
You guys missed the whole point. Who cares about the stupid nickname!! My whole point is that I don't want G'town to have a player who is a great talent but not mentally tough. I don't want a player who is a sheep in wolf's clothing. Thats my whole point. I don't want players that played like they did in the Esh regime: Great in the first 35 minutes in the ballgame with a lead and looks like they will seal the deal, and then crumble in the last 5 minutes and lose ballgames they should have won by getting soft under pressure. Thats my whole point. Oh you mean like how the BC game ended this year after we made a run to get it close? How about the St. John's game? Please - we're talking about F'N KIDS HERE!! If Macklin isn't Jordan in the clutch, so freakin' be it. I agree with you _way - I'm personally not in love with KG like the rest of the world seems to be. He's just never impressed me much in the TEAM setting. He's got a plethora of skills and man-for-man might be one of the most talented guys in the league, but if I were a GM I'd rather build a Pistons-like team any day. But I digress. If Macklin is even REMOTELY as good as KG - even if that means "not dominating" in the clutch or whatever - fine. He'll still dominate a bunch of 19-21 year olds. I personally would settle for a Hoya big man who we can kick it into the post for a hoop or foul when we "need it" late in a game and who'll grab boards - something none of our boys seemed to handle well down the stretch. If Macklin can provide that, fine. Bring him on. If its someone else, so be it. Just get someone thick in here who'll move bodies around underneath and cause SOME trouble on the offensive end for other teams.
|
|
HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
Posts: 1,329
|
Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 2, 2005 8:25:49 GMT -5
That is bogus. What RDF says is true. He said Kevin Garnett is a great player. He is just saying KG is not a franchise player or doesn't live up to the Franchise tag. Which is true. That is not true and suggests tome that you don't know what a franchise player is. A franchise player is someone whose talent and play lifts the franchise. Are you saying that KG hasn't done that. How many playoffs or winning records would they have made without him. Great players make below average teams good, great teams win championships. Tell me exactly what you think the T'wolves would have done had they had a player like Kobe instead of KG. Kobe has hit some big shots in his career and can be considered clutch, but I'm positive that I wouldn't build my franchise around him before KG.
|
|
RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
|
Post by RDF on Apr 2, 2005 11:15:11 GMT -5
Well the TWolves have built their franchise around Garnett and what do they have to show for it?? Last year's run was the ONLY time they've won a PLAYOFF SERIES---period. That is NOT what a FRANCHISE PLAYER signifies. It's not as if Garnett hasn't had capable help to win a ROUND--not the Western Conference, a ROUND in the Playoffs and remember for the majority of his career the Playoffs opening Round consisted of a Best of 5 format. A franchise player is good enough to win 3 games by himself--it's been done before.
My problem with KG is not his ability--I commend him for being a great all around player who is very talented and would take him on my team any time. I'd just be sure to have a more assertive elite player with him--which he had in Marbury--I am NOT saying Marbury is a franchise player but he is an assertive player and took the big shots--as Cassell did last year which is exactly what someone like Garnett needs on his team. I don't understand why some people get so bent out of shape when you tell the truth about KG---I don't put his ability down, I talk about his failure to step up and carry his team and if he's going to command the money and role of the leader--you can't sit back quietly when it's time to decide your season.
With all of that said, I not only want Macklin to be a Hoya, I'm glad he idolizes Garnett because KG is a great talent and would be welcomed on any team I support or watch---just need to fit right pieces around those types as bigs who like to face up more than post up shouldn't be asked to do so. It's a fact that AI is in the paint during a game on offense more than Garnett and you have to build around guys' games--not force them to do things that aren't comfortable/strong in their game. And Macklin is someone who not only fits what GU is doing, he's fits what anyone is doing--talented kid. Call him Little Ticket, Ticket, Big Ticket, Skeetball Ticket, Movie Ticket, etc... as long as he's a Hoya I'll change my handle to RDF-Ticket!
|
|
HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
Posts: 1,329
|
Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 3, 2005 7:44:07 GMT -5
Well, the Lakers have now built their program around Kobe and let's see where that gets them. The Magic built their franchise around McGrady and that didn't get them very far. Same with the Raptors and Vince Carter. Same can be said about Iverson and the 76ers as they would have faced similar first round exits had they played in the West. What about Nowitzki and Dallas. I could go on, but I think you get my point
And regarding a franchise player being able to win 3 by himself, that's BS. The greatest of all-time have rarely won more than 1 game in a playoff series by themselves. I'd like some examples of someone winning 3 by themselves. I'll be sure to look through my NBA encyclopedia to see if I can find some cases of this.
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Apr 3, 2005 11:20:36 GMT -5
And as you said in the HOF thread, RDF, a great player can't carry a team past an superior team. What year in their seven year streak were they even talentwise with the other team? There wasn't one.
|
|
RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
|
Post by RDF on Apr 3, 2005 12:02:11 GMT -5
And as you said in the HOF thread, RDF, a great player can't carry a team past an superior team. What year in their seven year streak were they even talentwise with the other team? There wasn't one. The Wolves lost to Seattle who has been known to cough up a series or two--see 1st Round Exits against Nuggets and Lakers when being a 1 or 2 seed. They could've handled the Mavericks a few years back who were strictly run and gun and were devoid of any defense. The Rockets were ripe for the taking as well the year they beat Puppies and Sir Charles proclaimed the Pups "as the team of the future" As for the discussion, what's so big about what I say about Garnett? Have I not given him his due and mentioned he's a talented player? Why are you guys so touchy about me talking of his faults? I am a huge AI fan but have taking him to task NUMEROUS times. Can't you see faults in the "Franchise"?? I mean I addressed every issue/question and you guys turn it into a "Vince Carter couldn't.....McGrady couldnt....... and now Kobe's not........" where did I say KG is below Carter or McGrady? Those two screwed up when they let ego get in the way of winning--those two on same team would've been a nice corps to build around, wouldn't you say? As for Bryant, I'll wait until he gets an All Star sidekick again before evaluating him. I don't think Lakers were wrong for trading Shaq simply because he'd not put forth the efforts in his conditioning and he's not going to play as long as Bryant will--go younger for future. I think you can build around Kobe Bryant and I like Lakers future with Bryant more than I do Wolves future with KG. The statement you made saying Iverson can't carry a team is one of the most IGNORANT I've ever read. His team in '01 that went to the Finals would've won against anyone in Western Conference except the Lakers. They were the ONLY team to not only win a game but play Los Angeles competitively in Playoffs--ask Portland and San Antonio who were thoroughly humiliated and at the time considered the best of the best behind Lakers. Iverson played with Jumaine Jones, Rodney Buford, Eric Snow, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell, Kevin Ollie, Aaron McKie, and Theo Ratliff---then when Deke was acquired, he took his team where it should've been--in the NBA Finals. Out of that list, who's an established All Star or been a great player on other teams? Put that team around KG and see how far you get in Playoffs and I'm talking Eastern Conference too, not West. Iverson's carried a series by single handedly dominating Orlando in the first series he ever played in, he single handedly beat Charlotte a season later. MJ did it against Cleveland, and Knicks many times, Bird did it, Tim Duncan did it against Lakers in '99, Reggie Miller's done it, Paul Pierce destroyed the Sixers a few years back, do I need to continue?? Either watch the sport before you comment or just admit to being a homer for one player, but don't act as if your favorite player is without fault. I gave him plenty of praise, but your queer loyalty is beyond scary--it's weaker than his performances in 4th quarter. Again, KG is a talented player, and I would welcome Vernon Macklin anytime on Hoyas, and have NO PROBLEM with him idolizing KG or being given a nickname for similarities (note to KG fans, that is called a compliment, not a putdown).
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Apr 3, 2005 12:21:13 GMT -5
The Wolves lost to Seattle who has been known to cough up a series or two--see 1st Round Exits against Nuggets and Lakers when being a 1 or 2 seed. They could've handled the Mavericks a few years back who were strictly run and gun and were devoid of any defense. The Rockets were ripe for the taking as well the year they beat Puppies and Sir Charles proclaimed the Pups "as the team of the future" As for the discussion, what's so big about what I say about Garnett? Have I not given him his due and mentioned he's a talented player? Why are you guys so touchy about me talking of his faults? I am a huge AI fan but have taking him to task NUMEROUS times. Can't you see faults in the "Franchise"?? I mean I addressed every issue/question and you guys turn it into a "Vince Carter couldn't.....McGrady couldnt....... and now Kobe's not........" where did I say KG is below Carter or McGrady? Those two screwed up when they let ego get in the way of winning--those two on same team would've been a nice corps to build around, wouldn't you say? As for Bryant, I'll wait until he gets an All Star sidekick again before evaluating him. I don't think Lakers were wrong for trading Shaq simply because he'd not put forth the efforts in his conditioning and he's not going to play as long as Bryant will--go younger for future. I think you can build around Kobe Bryant and I like Lakers future with Bryant more than I do Wolves future with KG. The statement you made saying Iverson can't carry a team is one of the most IGNORANT I've ever read. His team in '01 that went to the Finals would've won against anyone in Western Conference except the Lakers. They were the ONLY team to not only win a game but play Los Angeles competitively in Playoffs--ask Portland and San Antonio who were thoroughly humiliated and at the time considered the best of the best behind Lakers. Iverson played with Jumaine Jones, Rodney Buford, Eric Snow, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell, Kevin Ollie, Aaron McKie, and Theo Ratliff---then when Deke was acquired, he took his team where it should've been--in the NBA Finals. Out of that list, who's an established All Star or been a great player on other teams? Put that team around KG and see how far you get in Playoffs and I'm talking Eastern Conference too, not West. Iverson's carried a series by single handedly dominating Orlando in the first series he ever played in, he single handedly beat Charlotte a season later. MJ did it against Cleveland, and Knicks many times, Bird did it, Tim Duncan did it against Lakers in '99, Reggie Miller's done it, Paul Pierce destroyed the Sixers a few years back, do I need to continue?? Either watch the sport before you comment or just admit to being a homer for one player, but don't act as if your favorite player is without fault. I gave him plenty of praise, but your queer loyalty is beyond scary--it's weaker than his performances in 4th quarter. Again, KG is a talented player, and I would welcome Vernon Macklin anytime on Hoyas, and have NO PROBLEM with him idolizing KG or being given a nickname for similarities (note to KG fans, that is called a compliment, not a putdown). I'm not acting as if he's without fault-he does pass up the big shots too often. But Garnett is one of the best players in the NBA, and I would rather have him than Iverson, but I understand why you'd take Iverson. I see them as pretty similar, in that they've never had much help and were able to go far when they had some help (and yes, Iverson had less help, but they're in the East, which is nowhere near as competitive as the West) I hate how people act as if the Wolves were the better teams the 7 years they lost. They weren't. They were the underdog in every one of the 7 years of futility. A team being ripe for the upset doesn't make it not still be an upset. And there's a reason why only 1 team has only lost to an 8 seed. And finally, yeah, the Wolves were the team of the future when they played the Rockets, but then Marbury demanded out and, well, the Wolves didn't recover as a team until last year.
|
|
RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
|
Post by RDF on Apr 3, 2005 12:40:11 GMT -5
I'm not acting as if he's without fault-he does pass up the big shots too often. But Garnett is one of the best players in the NBA, and I would rather have him than Iverson, but I understand why you'd take Iverson. I see them as pretty similar, in that they've never had much help and were able to go far when they had some help (and yes, Iverson had less help, but they're in the East, which is nowhere near as competitive as the West) I hate how people act as if the Wolves were the better teams the 7 years they lost. They weren't. They were the underdog in every one of the 7 years of futility. A team being ripe for the upset doesn't make it not still be an upset. And there's a reason why only 1 team has only lost to an 8 seed. And finally, yeah, the Wolves were the team of the future when they played the Rockets, but then Marbury demanded out and, well, the Wolves didn't recover as a team until last year. As I stated earlier in this thread, why did Marbury bail? Because Garnett got paid the money and got the hype as the Franchise but when it was time to play like it in the 4th quarter, Marbury would take over and handle the role. Then NBA instituted the "slot" payments for Caps---so many years equating to max money and he was Editeded off. KG could've thrown a few bones Steph's way but chose not to. Remember Garnett's contract changed the landscape as much as Larry Johnson's ridiculous contract from Hornets. He could've said "Rather have a good team around me," but he chose the big $$$ which I don't fault him for, but don't want to hear about his lack of help. He's played with better players than Iverson and it's not even close. Eastern Conference wasn't as good, but that has nothing to do with not winning a round. AI had really crappy teams in Eastern Conference and carried them. To say Garnett could do same with similar teammates is highly doubtful. Some of those Games Philly won in East with that "supporting Cast" required 50 pt outbursts from Iverson and domination in 4th quarter. Where have you seen KG do that in his career?? He's played one hellish game in his career in Playoff 4th Quarter and deserved praise. Iverson had to do that in East because he was surrounded by crap and if he had some guys KG's had, he would've won at least a round in Western Conference. I do agree that I wouldn't build around AI at this point but that's because I want him traded. He still has 3-4 years of high level basketball and I just fear he'll suffer same fate as Patrick--get talented teammates when he's past his prime and too old to make a difference. I like Iguodala, Korver, and Dalembert, but Sixers need 2-3 more players and Webber's not worth a damn because Philly needs a PF who can score on blocks, not shooting jumpers. They have mobile team and trade for Webber?? YUCK. Garnett should really push for Ray Allen this offseason. Remember they drafted him, but traded for Marbury, and many times I think Allen would've made bigger impact because he doesn't have the ego as Marbury does---and he's a winner. Marbury hasn't won a thing because his ego is in way, Allen is not afraid to shoot big shots and also helps his team get better. I like KG's chances in future more than Iverson for another reason, Western Conference won't be as good as in past and Eastern Conference is better--with better young stars like Wade--who I love--and Lebron who is not only talented by media darling. Throw in the Bulls with a nice young team, and I like those teams to challenge Detroit, Indiana's, etc.......KG needs help like Iverson but has also had more so far. It'll be up to him to show that he can dominate a depleted Western Conference and he gets a pass from me this year as he's been hurt with knee injury and played through it without saying anything. I think we'll get to see what so many have said in future though "he'd be dominant in East". Well West isn't that impressive right now, so he'll get his opportunities.
|
|