the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422 
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2005 0:20:33 GMT -5
The fact is KG is one of the elite players in the NBA, your personal dislike of him does not change that. The one critique of his game is that he does not take the last shot, but the same can be said of Shaq or Duncan. Big men are just not as suited for game winning shots as guards like Jordan, Kobe, or even Gilbert Arenas. Shaq and Duncan rarely ever take the last shot either; they are just hidden because they have exceptional guards (Kobe, Wade, Parker) who take control toward the end of games. Guards that Garnett never had the fortune of playing with. Your assumption that this inability is a direct result of lack of effort or poor mental toughness is very far off base. Garnett does step his game up for the entire fourth quarter as a whole when the game is on the line. As far as I am concerned, every basket counts as two points, every rebound gains possesion, and every assist has the same result, regardless of the time and situation. Therefore, the first quarter is just as important as the second, which is just as important as the fourth. Unfortunately for some, there is a perception that baskets are more important later in games. In regards to the Iverson or Garnett debate, neither has ever won anything notable. To say that Iverson has done more in his career is untrue. In my opinion, getting to the finals in the western conference is much more impressive than doing the same in the east. If Iverson had been playing on the Timberwolves the last few years, he would have gone no further than KG. I know that we all love Iverson, but the fact is that Garnett has been the better player. Lastly, the idea that Georgetown, an average high-major at best, would turn down a player that was similar to KG is ludicrous, if we can get anywhere near Macklin, we should pounce. Give me examples, not numbers, where KG stepped up and put the team on his back. And you say Iverson going to finals didn't hold much weight, eh? Well his team was the only team to beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year, something that a Western Conference team failed to do. Its obvious you are a KG fan and thats okay. You fail to see the obvious. But you have your fake-franchise player and his stat-stuffing ways. If i'm going to battle, I'm taking AI, Duncan, Wade, Kobe or Shaq or even Paul Pierce with me. Because they have shown what it means to be big-time players in the clutch. KG hasn't. |
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Mar 31, 2005 8:37:54 GMT -5
Give me examples, not numbers, where KG stepped up and put the team on his back. And you say Iverson going to finals didn't hold much weight, eh? Well his team was the only team to beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year, something that a Western Conference team failed to do. Its obvious you are a KG fan and thats okay. You fail to see the obvious. But you have your fake-franchise player and his stat-stuffing ways. If i'm going to battle, I'm taking AI, Duncan, Wade, Kobe or Shaq or even Paul Pierce with me. Because they have shown what it means to be big-time players in the clutch. KG hasn't. The_way, I've got to disagree with you on this one. It appears you made a statement with no facts to back it up and then when someone presented you with the facts, you were pretty quiet until someone else presented a ridiculous argument that he's a good 4th quarter player but not a good crunch time player. Here is a newsflash for all of you KG haters and fans who want to dwell on the last 2 minutes of the game-EVERY POINT COUNTS TOWARD THE FINAL SCORE. Some of you act like they reset the scoreboard with 2 minutes left and then let KG go 1 on 1 with the opposing teams best player. This argument is ridiculous, especially when you consider the fact that the team has been successful (up until this season, of course). Does KG hit less clutch shots, than other superstars? Does he make less key defensive stops (blocks, steals, altered shots, etc.,) than other superstars? Does he get less assists in clutch time or offensive rebounds to keep possessions alive than other superstars? I can guarantee you that you don't have these numbers and I can also guarantee you that the answer is probably NO to all of them. You have the right not to like KG, but don't take the easy media argument in trying to defend your dislike for him. Let's see, he hadn't won a playoff round until recently and hasn't won a championship, therefore he doesn't step up in clutch time. That's a leap and once you get tagged with that rap, then all of your critics will look for the time that you missed the big shot and conveniently forget about any big shots/plays that you made down the stretch. |
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 31, 2005 9:05:25 GMT -5
Two words from Indiana, Reggie Miller!!!
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2005 9:23:16 GMT -5
Two words from Indiana, Reggie Miller!!! Thank you!! Reggie Miller, along with Michael Jordan, was the greatest clutch player ever. Reggie was man on a mission to win. Reggie could struggle the whole game but in the last minutes of a game, he still STEPPED up and put his team on his back to win ball games in the playoffs. These KG groupies have yet to answer my question because they can't recall when KG ever stepped in games when it really mattered most. |
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 31, 2005 9:44:05 GMT -5
Thank you!! Reggie Miller, along with Michael Jordan, was the greatest clutch player ever. Reggie was man on a mission to win. Reggie could struggle the whole game but in the last minutes of a game, he still STEPPED up and put his team on his back to win ball games in the playoffs. These KG groupies have yet to answer my question because they can't recall when KG ever stepped in games when it really mattered most. Game 7 against Sacramento last year. And yeah, he's not the best clutch player, but I would rather have him than AI (who's had a similar career in an easier conference--KG would have taken the Wolves to at least one NBA Finals if they were in the East). And the reason most people haven't replied to you is that they reply, you ignore them, and then you act like no one has offered a valid argument. Would you like Hoyaplaya's comments about 4's and 5's having less opportunities than guards to be the visible buzzer beater guys? KG doesn't bring the ball up the floor (except last year when Cassell got hurt, but hey, they lost to the Lakers. KG must be a choker. The fact that the Wolves second best player wasn't playing didn't matter AT ALL) Or how about the argument that Hoyaskins made using "stats". And finally, have you watched every game KG has played in and especially, ever playoff game? Because your blanket statements about his crunch time skills make it seem like you have. I have watched a lot of Wolves game, b/c I'm from Minnesota and I've seen him take over 4th quarters before, and I've watched him take teams with lottery written all over them to the playoffs. Honestly, I'm sorry I made the comment about liking Macklin's nickname. I should have known you or one of the other KG haters would go crazy like this. |
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2005 10:03:40 GMT -5
Game 7 against Sacramento last year. And yeah, he's not the best clutch player, but I would rather have him than AI (who's had a similar career in an easier conference--KG would have taken the Wolves to at least one NBA Finals if they were in the East). And the reason most people haven't replied to you is that they reply, you ignore them, and then you act like no one has offered a valid argument. Would you like Hoyaplaya's comments about 4's and 5's having less opportunities than guards to be the visible buzzer beater guys? KG doesn't bring the ball up the floor (except last year when Cassell got hurt, but hey, they lost to the Lakers. KG must be a choker. The fact that the Wolves second best player wasn't playing didn't matter AT ALL) Or how about the argument that Hoyaskins made using "stats". And finally, have you watched every game KG has played in and especially, ever playoff game? Because your blanket statements about his crunch time skills make it seem like you have. I have watched a lot of Wolves game, b/c I'm from Minnesota and I've seen him take over 4th quarters before, and I've watched him take teams with lottery written all over them to the playoffs. Honestly, I'm sorry I made the comment about liking Macklin's nickname. I should have known you or one of the other KG haters would go crazy like this. Now, if you look at my posts, I've always said one game is where he stood up. And you are correct, last year against Sacramento. But thats one game against a depleted Sacremento team and a one-legged Chris Webber with a 2 inch vertical jump guarding him. Thats one game out of his WHOLE 8 year career. Thats one too little for a Franchise player making 22-25 million dollars a year. I've seen plenty of games of KG. And it always puzzles me how people talk about how he is great player and he is a Franchise player. But I've watched on numerous occasions where he chumped out in big ball games. I just don't read the box score, and watch ESPN highlights and then make an assessment on how great KG is. If you go by that criteria, you would think that Lebron James has had the most success as a player of his draft class. However, Carmelo Anthony led his team with a lame-duck coach, IN THE WEST, to the playoffs, and as did Dwayne Wade last year in the EAST, the same conference as Lebron. But I won't open that can of worms. I don't pull out a calculator,number-crunch until the cows come home, watch Sportscenter highlights, subscribe to Rivals.com, and make my assessments based on what propaganda says. I actually watch games. Its like they say, the game-tape doesn't lie. Hey, I like KG. If I had another franchise player on my team, I would love to have him. But, if he is my go-to-guy or designated franchise player, I wouldn't bank on my team going too far in the playoffs and winning a championship. |
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 31, 2005 10:23:09 GMT -5
Thats one game out of his WHOLE 8 year career. You've seen every game he's played? That's impressive. Do you live in MN, or do you just have NBA direct pass? And what about the game against the Clippers last week? I thought he did a good job of stepping it up in the 4th to put the game away. Or the game 4 years ago where he took over against the Sixers? I think it was in March. Just a solid job by KG in the 4th to cement the win. So that's at least three games in his WHOLE 8 year career, and hey, I only watch ESPN highlights and read the boxscore, EXCEPT WHEN I WATCH THE WOLVES' GAMES BECAUSE I'M FROM MINNESOTA AND THEY SHOW THEM ALL ON FOX SPORTS NORTH. Oh, and don't try and act like you don't despise KG and jumped all over an innocent post in order to careen this thread off topic in order to express your hatred of KG. Because you did. |
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 31, 2005 10:26:49 GMT -5
Wasn't this a thread about high school big men?
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2005 10:27:50 GMT -5
You've seen every game he's played? That's impressive. Do you live in MN, or do you just have NBA direct pass? And what about the game against the Clippers last week? I thought he did a good job of stepping it up in the 4th to put the game away. Or the game 4 years ago where he took over against the Sixers? I think it was in March. Just a solid job by KG in the 4th to cement the win. So that's at least three games in his WHOLE 8 year career, and hey, I only watch ESPN highlights and read the boxscore, EXCEPT WHEN I WATCH THE WOLVES' GAMES BECAUSE I'M FROM MINNESOTA AND THEY SHOW THEM ALL ON FOX SPORTS NORTH. Oh, and don't try and act like you don't despise KG and jumped all over an innocent post in order to careen this thread off topic in order to express your hatred of KG. Because you did. If I hate KG, then you are madly in love with him.  |
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Mar 31, 2005 11:56:42 GMT -5
Thats one game out of his WHOLE 8 year career. Thats one too little for a Franchise player making 22-25 million dollars a year. I've seen plenty of games of KG. So if he had two of those games, he'd be great in your book? |
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2005 12:19:41 GMT -5
So if he had two of those games, he'd be great in your book? No, he has do it quite a few times before I would consider him a great player. He is great stat-stuffer, but not a great player. |
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Mar 31, 2005 13:26:55 GMT -5
As the noted authority on KG on HoyaTalk, ;D I can mention that I've personally seen KG punk out more than step up when game is on the line. When you are outplayed by Slava Medvedenko in the decisive quarter of Game 6 WCF with Shaq and Kobe saddled by foul trouble, you deserve the same ridicule as when you were defended one on one and chose to pass to the likes of:
Anthony Peeler
Dean Garrett
Terrell Brandon
Fred Hoiberg
Joe Smith
Gary Trent
To decide Playoff Games.
For those who say Garnett would've made the NBA Finals if he played in the Eastern Conference, I call BS. Why would a man who NEVER won a Playoff Series be guaranteed a Finals Appearance?? He NEVER won a series---I can tell you with all confidence that AI would've won a Series in Western Conference and better yet, if you switched KG and Iverson, I'd guarantee the results would've been quite different with same personnel they had. A SUPERSTAR can win a Round or 2 by himself--they carry their team. Garnett needed help (not a knock, but reality), Iverson didn't. His first Playoff Appearance, he dominated Orlando. He led a marginally talented team and still does. The one time he was paired with an All Star prior to this season, he went to NBA Finals and took a game from Lakers who didn't lose one game in Western Conference Playoffs.
Garnett's a great talent, but he's a supporting star on a Championship team and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Just irritating to hear how he's the "Franchise" and guy who set a record for the highest contract in NBA History when he's not even in the most dominant player of his era. People up here in Twin Cities know that Marbury took all of the big shots when they played together and that led to a lot of animosity between KG and him--KG was seen as Franchise but wouldn't take on the responsibilities that a Franchise Player should/is expected. The complete BS about him being a 4/5 and not being able to get his shot off in crunch time is laughable. The man was guarded man up by BRAD MILLER and passed off the shots.
I do agree this shouldn't have one thing to do with Macklin---he likes KG, cool by me. He wears #21 and is a versatile big, I like it, but would like it even more if he was a Hoya!!! However it turned into a debate about KG and as a person living up in Twin Cities, I have seen KG play more than anyone on board or at least as much and the guy does go silent in moments that require people of his reputation to take over. He idolized Fab 5 and he resembles Chris Webber as a player when it's money time. That's why it was so fitting, he defeated Webber and the Queens for his big performance and all seemed to be forgotten about the past. The Laker series was his chance to step his game to the level of his hype and he failed. It can change, but will it?
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
Posts: 1,329
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 1, 2005 8:17:03 GMT -5
As the noted authority on KG on HoyaTalk, ;D I can mention that I've personally seen KG punk out more than step up when game is on the line. When you are outplayed by Slava Medvedenko in the decisive quarter of Game 6 WCF with Shaq and Kobe saddled by foul trouble, you deserve the same ridicule as when you were defended one on one and chose to pass to the likes of: Anthony Peeler Dean Garrett Terrell Brandon Fred Hoiberg Joe Smith Gary Trent To decide Playoff Games. For those who say Garnett would've made the NBA Finals if he played in the Eastern Conference, I call BS. Why would a man who NEVER won a Playoff Series be guaranteed a Finals Appearance?? He NEVER won a series---I can tell you with all confidence that AI would've won a Series in Western Conference and better yet, if you switched KG and Iverson, I'd guarantee the results would've been quite different with same personnel they had. A SUPERSTAR can win a Round or 2 by himself--they carry their team. Garnett needed help (not a knock, but reality), Iverson didn't. His first Playoff Appearance, he dominated Orlando. He led a marginally talented team and still does. The one time he was paired with an All Star prior to this season, he went to NBA Finals and took a game from Lakers who didn't lose one game in Western Conference Playoffs. Garnett's a great talent, but he's a supporting star on a Championship team and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Just irritating to hear how he's the "Franchise" and guy who set a record for the highest contract in NBA History when he's not even in the most dominant player of his era. People up here in Twin Cities know that Marbury took all of the big shots when they played together and that led to a lot of animosity between KG and him--KG was seen as Franchise but wouldn't take on the responsibilities that a Franchise Player should/is expected. The complete BS about him being a 4/5 and not being able to get his shot off in crunch time is laughable. The man was guarded man up by BRAD MILLER and passed off the shots. I do agree this shouldn't have one thing to do with Macklin---he likes KG, cool by me. He wears #21 and is a versatile big, I like it, but would like it even more if he was a Hoya!!! However it turned into a debate about KG and as a person living up in Twin Cities, I have seen KG play more than anyone on board or at least as much and the guy does go silent in moments that require people of his reputation to take over. He idolized Fab 5 and he resembles Chris Webber as a player when it's money time. That's why it was so fitting, he defeated Webber and the Queens for his big performance and all seemed to be forgotten about the past. The Laker series was his chance to step his game to the level of his hype and he failed. It can change, but will it? Sorry RDF, your post holds no weight because everyone on this board knows your stance and feelings towards KG. You are a perfect example of how nothing he does will ever be good enough short of hitting a game winning shot to win the championship. |
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 8:51:03 GMT -5
Sorry RDF, your post holds no weight because everyone on this board knows your stance and feelings towards KG. You are a perfect example of how nothing he does will ever be good enough short of hitting a game winning shot to win the championship. That is bogus. What RDF says is true. He said Kevin Garnett is a great player. He is just saying KG is not a franchise player or doesn't live up to the Franchise tag. Which is true. |
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Apr 1, 2005 9:28:44 GMT -5
To which I say, if Vernon Macklin has the potential to be a great NBA player, then hell yeah, I want him on my team, even if he won't carry an NBA team to a championship on his shoulders.
Though I hate to bring this back to what the actual thread was started for...
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 9:36:31 GMT -5
To which I say, if Vernon Macklin has the potential to be a great NBA player, then hell yeah, I want him on my team, even if he won't carry an NBA team to a championship on his shoulders. Though I hate to bring this back to what the actual thread was started for... In the Big East or any Conference games, the margin of victories and losses are typically close. You need clutch performances, like we had this year with the first Notre Dame game,the second Rutgers game, the first Villanova game, and the Pittsburg game. Wasn't that the biggest complaint and issue that plagued Esh's teams. They always found a way to lose a close ball game. Thats what it would be like if Macklin is KG-like. We need guys who can make plays when its close and, more importantly, guys who aren't AFRAID to try and make plays in a close ballgame. We don't need players who shy away from pressure. What good is your talent if it doesn't do anything when the game is on the line? |
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Apr 1, 2005 10:08:10 GMT -5
Pardon my incredulity, but I can't actually believe that you're saying it would be better for the Hoyas not to have a top-10 frontcourt prospect from the class of 2006, when just about everyone on this board has agreed that frontcourt beef and talent is what this team needs to add.
Based on a nickname.
Please, please give me a single shred of evidence (beyond the nickname) that there would be a downside to landing Macklin, and I'll stop rolling my eyes every time you add a post to this thread.
You have not added a single bit of value to the original point of this thread, other than to hijack it for your personal KG vendetta. Please, if you have anything of substance to add about Macklin, about his play, about his rep, about his stats, other that you don't like his nickname (or his "perceived" hero), by all means do so.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 1, 2005 10:16:10 GMT -5
Breaking news...Josh Thornton goes by T-Mac...speculation runs rampant on Hoyatalk as people question his ability to play teamball based on his nickname.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2005 10:21:36 GMT -5
Let's rewind: 10 years ago, would you have taken KG at Georgetown? I know I would have. Yeah, you need guys to step up and be clutch in close games, but if we had KG and AI in '96, there wouldn't have been any close games.....
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hoyahoyasaxa
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Sead Dizdarezvic doesn't write term papers. The words rearrange themselves out of fear.
Posts: 464
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Post by hoyahoyasaxa on Apr 1, 2005 10:21:42 GMT -5
The only time when someone should definitely not be recruited solely because of their nickname should be in cases such as these:
John "Worst Basketball Player Ever" Smith
John "Guaranteed Scandal" Smith
John "Never scores, rebounds, or assists" Smith
John "I hate Georgetown" Smith
John "No heart" Smith
John "Feinstein" Smith
John "Jacob Jingleheimer" Smith
Well maybe not the last one...
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