the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 11:51:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't want one of those either. If he's like Garnett though, I'd love to have him. You missed my whole point. I was describing Garnett.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 30, 2005 11:58:24 GMT -5
If his nickname is "Big Ticket", I don't want the guy nor would I like him for Georgetown. "Big Ticket" type players don't fit the Georgtown way of playing basketball. I don't want a media-hyped, overrated player who is a stat stuffer, and runs and hides in crunch time, gives the ball up in the last minute of the game, and lacks mental toughness. And a new record for reading a book by its cover goes to the_way! Roy's nickname was Sha-Dirk. I love Roy, but that isn't very representative. Bubbachuck's playground name was the Answer, not The Helpful Team Player and he did okay.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 12:10:52 GMT -5
And a new record for reading a book by its cover goes to the_way! Roy's nickname was Sha-Dirk. I love Roy, but that isn't very representative. Bubbachuck's playground name was the Answer, not The Helpful Team Player and he did okay. Actually, AI is a team player. Wherever he has been he has been asked to take the bulk of the shots. JT2 and Larry Brown ran their offenses through AI. This year O'brien wants AI to take the bulk of the shots. That is what he is asked to do. AI does pass the ball, but he has a bunch of stiffs on his team who can't make shots in the NBA. There are plenty of times where gives his teammates great looks, only for them to drop the ball, brick the shot, or pass it off to someone else. His best team in Philly was when they had all defensive role players and he did the bulk of the scoring. I'd take AI over KG anyday because I know AI has heart, and I have seen him play well in crunch time numerous times. KG has only done that once in his entire career.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 30, 2005 12:28:23 GMT -5
Actually, AI is a team player. Wherever he has been he has been asked to take the bulk of the shots. JT2 and Larry Brown ran their offenses through AI. This year O'brien wants AI to take the bulk of the shots. That is what he is asked to do. AI does pass the ball, but he has a bunch of stiffs on his team who can't make shots in the NBA. There are plenty of times where gives his teammates great looks, only for them to drop the ball, brick the shot, or pass it off to someone else. His best team in Philly was when they had all defensive role players and he did the bulk of the scoring. I'd take AI over KG anyday because I know AI has heart, and I have seen him play well in crunch time numerous times. KG has only done that once in his entire career. Yes he is. But a nickname like The Answer doesn't scream team player. My point, which was lost, is that just because the guy has the same nickname as Garnett doesn't mean he plays exactly like Garnett or has his pluses or minuses. It's just a nickname.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Mar 30, 2005 13:48:17 GMT -5
Yeah, you can't conclude much from a nickname. Now if Macklin's nickname were Little Big Ticket, that would be something else.
How did this thread evolve into a discussion of KG? RDF, where are you?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 15:01:05 GMT -5
Yes he is. But a nickname like The Answer doesn't scream team player. My point, which was lost, is that just because the guy has the same nickname as Garnett doesn't mean he plays exactly like Garnett or has his pluses or minuses. It's just a nickname. I'm not talking about the nickname. I'm talking about comparing a young player to an overrated, media-darling player KG. KG's nickname is Big Ticket, along with KG. I hope young players don't aspire to be KG, because the guy is overrated and is not an elite player. He is good player, but not an elite player. Young players need to make their standards high. Comparing yourself to KG is lowering your standards of what a Basketball player should be.
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Post by bowmansbruzers on Mar 30, 2005 15:47:40 GMT -5
How can you not say KG is a great player. Have you looked at his stats lately. I mean this guy gets 20-10-10 on a bad night. He can put up 25 points 15 rebounds and 12 assists easily. And, he does not shoot the ball alot either, he just knows how to play the game. People should strive to be this guy because he plays great D for a superstar, passes the ball and rebounds the ball better than he shoots and still scores 20 a night. Also, hes 6-11 running the floor like a sg, thats why people should want to be like him.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 16:01:01 GMT -5
How can you not say KG is a great player. Have you looked at his stats lately. I mean this guy gets 20-10-10 on a bad night. He can put up 25 points 15 rebounds and 12 assists easily. And, he does not shoot the ball alot either, he just knows how to play the game. People should strive to be this guy because he plays great D for a superstar, passes the ball and rebounds the ball better than he shoots and still scores 20 a night. Also, hes 6-11 running the floor like a sg, thats why people should want to be like him. You just proved my point exactly. You are enamoured with his stats. KG is the ultimate stat-stuffer. Just like Chris Webber. But , when the game really matters most, in crunch time where it separates the stars from the scrubs and the men from the boys, KG rarely gets a stat and he shys away from taking the last shot. He is a soft competitor. There a lot of players in the NBA and college who play great when it doesn't really matter, but they are quick to choke under pressure or "get ghost". KG, with the exception of one game in his whole entire career, chokes and chumps out under pressure. Thats not what great players do. All the great players and champions welcome the challenge of raising their level of play when it matters most. Thats what Georgetown players have been about. Not the "chump" and competively "soft" approach of KG.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 30, 2005 16:04:37 GMT -5
I'm not talking about the nickname. I'm talking about comparing a young player to an overrated, media-darling player KG. KG's nickname is Big Ticket, along with KG. I hope young players don't aspire to be KG, because the guy is overrated and is not an elite player. He is good player, but not an elite player. Young players need to make their standards high. Comparing yourself to KG is lowering your standards of what a Basketball player should be. I think your anti-Garnett viewpoint is a little over the top. In terms of talent, KG is one of the top 5 players in the world. You criticize him for not having stepped up, and you can make the case for that, but nonetheless the guy is one of the most talented players in the game. Why hasnt he won a championship? Just look at the guys around him. You wanna talk about not having heart, look at Spreewell, Cassell, Olowokandi, Sczerbiak.... Why hasnt Iverson won a championship? Why didnt Ewing, or Barkley or Malone or Stockton? Not having won a championship does not mean a player does not have heart. Anyway, even if you think Garnett is horrible, Im sure Macklin did not give himself the nickname. He, like many young players, is probably a Garnett fan, but Im sure that Macklin, just like Garnett, aspires to WIN and to step up in crunch time.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 16:22:48 GMT -5
I think your anti-Garnett viewpoint is a little over the top. In terms of talent, KG is one of the top 5 players in the world. You criticize him for not having stepped up, and you can make the case for that, but nonetheless the guy is one of the most talented players in the game. Why hasnt he won a championship? Just look at the guys around him. You wanna talk about not having heart, look at Spreewell, Cassell, Olowokandi, Sczerbiak.... Why hasnt Iverson won a championship? Why didnt Ewing, or Barkley or Malone or Stockton? Not having won a championship does not mean a player does not have heart. Anyway, even if you think Garnett is horrible, Im sure Macklin did not give himself the nickname. He, like many young players, is probably a Garnett fan, but Im sure that Macklin, just like Garnett, aspires to WIN and to step up in crunch time. I'm not anti-anything. The proof is there. I'm not making anything up. KG looks great in the first 3 quarters of a ball game. He is a top 5 player for the first 3 quarters of a ballgame. But in the 4th quarter in crunch time, he is one of the worst. I'm not talking about winning championships. I'm talking about stepping your game up in crunch time with the big boys. KG doesn't do that.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 30, 2005 16:40:49 GMT -5
I'm not anti-anything. The proof is there. I'm not making anything up. KG looks great in the first 3 quarters of a ball game. He is a top 5 player for the first 3 quarters of a ballgame. But in the 4th quarter in crunch time, he is one of the worst. I'm not talking about winning championships. I'm talking about stepping your game up in crunch time with the big boys. KG doesn't do that. One of the worst players? I mean I dont have the stats but I just dont think this is true.... Maybe he is one of the worst SUPERSTARS in crunch time, but thats completely different. You also have to factor in this... if the guys been dominating all game, and hes widely known as one of the best players in the league, who are you expecting to take most of the shots? Garnett, of course, which is why he faces all sorts of double teams and is the focal point of opposing defenses. Even if Garnett plays like an elite player 3/4 of the game and only plays like a good player in crunch time, that doesnt mean its deliberate. You seem to be suggesting that not only is this so, but its so because Garnett doesnt really care about winning, only about stuffing the stat sheet. I think thats pretty unfair. Im sure KG wants to win just as badly as a Shaq or Duncan... the fact that his stats tail off a bit in "crunch time" doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt want it, which is I think what youre implying.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 17:04:14 GMT -5
One of the worst players? I mean I dont have the stats but I just dont think this is true.... Maybe he is one of the worst SUPERSTARS in crunch time, but thats completely different. You also have to factor in this... if the guys been dominating all game, and hes widely known as one of the best players in the league, who are you expecting to take most of the shots? Garnett, of course, which is why he faces all sorts of double teams and is the focal point of opposing defenses. Even if Garnett plays like an elite player 3/4 of the game and only plays like a good player in crunch time, that doesnt mean its deliberate. You seem to be suggesting that not only is this so, but its so because Garnett doesnt really care about winning, only about stuffing the stat sheet. I think thats pretty unfair. Im sure KG wants to win just as badly as a Shaq or Duncan... the fact that his stats tail off a bit in "crunch time" doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt want it, which is I think what youre implying. I'm not implying it, I'm saying it. There have been times in the last minute or so in the ball game, where KG has one-on-one coverage where he can easily take his man, but he gives the ball up to guy who is far from the basket. Or there are a lot times where its the last few seconds and KG just stands there with one guy guarding him, and not even try to get open or call for the ball. How many franchise players do that? NONE. KG ain't a superstar. He is good player, but he is not great.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Mar 30, 2005 17:08:37 GMT -5
If that is your standard, then yes, I would like to recruit a player who has the talent level of an NBA superstar, but who fades in the last five minutes of games. Quite frankly, adding someone with NBA All-Star talent to this team sounds like a good deal to me, particularly as it will lead to more game not even coming down to close moments in the closing minutes of a game.
Still, not sure what that has to do with Vernon Macklin, any more than all of the (probably hundreds of) players nicknamed Little Jordan, Baby Jordan, or Kid Jordan, had to do with MJ. Not a whole hell of a lot.
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Post by HoyasSkins on Mar 30, 2005 17:36:10 GMT -5
I'm not anti-anything. The proof is there. I'm not making anything up. KG looks great in the first 3 quarters of a ball game. He is a top 5 player for the first 3 quarters of a ballgame. But in the 4th quarter in crunch time, he is one of the worst. I'm not talking about winning championships. I'm talking about stepping your game up in crunch time with the big boys. KG doesn't do that. While looking up this so called dropoff in 4th quarter stats, I found this tidbit for "4) Clutch Scorer It's one thing to be a great player, but another to be a great player under pressure. We chart how players do in clutch moments of a game, which we define as the 4th quarter and overtime where neither team has a lead of more than five points. Putting Kevin's clutch stats onto a 48 minute average shows the following: By FG FGA FG% eFG% Ast'd Blk'd FTM Pts 48 Min 11.9 22.4 .530 .534 54% 8% 6.5 30.4 He doesn't shy away from taking the big shots, and while with some players' performance drops off in critical moments, for Garnett his effective field goal percentage (adjusting for three points shots) is actually higher with the game on the line than it is overall. He had a .508 eFG% for all minutes, but a .534 eFG% in money-time. Not only that, 46% of his baskets came unassisted which means even with the entire world knowing the ball was going to K.G. he could still create his own shot and manufacture points by himself. "
So, clearly his 4th quarter stats have no drop off, in fact, they increase. He is no Jordan, but he is at least a top 5 player and, to me, is more valuable that Iverson. Also, this has no relevance to Vernon Macklin. I am sure that whoever first called him the Big Ticket was comparing the positive similarities. If you want to compare him to a player without heart who chokes under pressure, there are far more players that better fit that mold.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 30, 2005 17:52:58 GMT -5
HoyaSkins.
Now that's what I like. Someone who has actual stats to back up whatever their position is.
Very interesting. Good post.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 30, 2005 18:51:10 GMT -5
Hoyaskins--gracias for the stats. I should have known when I made my first post about liking his nickname that the KG haters would immediatly descend. If our guards attack the hoop next yearas ferociously as the_way attacks KG, we'll be making a run deep in the NCAA. Hopefully they can finish better than him though.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Mar 30, 2005 19:07:10 GMT -5
I happen to be a fan of Garnett who, nevertheless, thinks there is some validity to the criticism he receives. It probably isn't possible, but I would like to see those statistics further broken down to cover the final 5 minutes of games in which the spread at any time is 5 points or less, and also apply the criteria to playoff games.
The main criticism I have seen of Garnett isn't that he is not a 4th quarter player, but that he doesn't step forward (and often makes no effort to step forward) when the game is on the line. So even the statistics I would like to see wouldn't tell the entire tale. Does he want the ball in crunch time? The answer often seems to have been no, but I doubt that anyone can provide anything other than anecdotal evidence to support either side of this argument.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 30, 2005 22:32:32 GMT -5
I happen to be a fan of Garnett who, nevertheless, thinks there is some validity to the criticism he receives. It probably isn't possible, but I would like to see those statistics further broken down to cover the final 5 minutes of games in which the spread at any time is 5 points or less, and also apply the criteria to playoff games. The main criticism I have seen of Garnett isn't that he is not a 4th quarter player, but that he doesn't step forward (and often makes no effort to step forward) when the game is on the line. So even the statistics I would like to see wouldn't tell the entire tale. Does he want the ball in crunch time? The answer often seems to have been no, but I doubt that anyone can provide anything other than anecdotal evidence to support either side of this argument. Thank you hoyarooter. That was my whole point. I knew as soon as I spoke about the god, KG, the number crunchers would come out in bunches. And I knew they would break down the numbers that had no meaning and no relevance to the argument so they could feel good about themselves, give themselves a pat on the back, and sleep well at night feeling they have conquered the world with their calculators. The numbers hide the fact that in crunch time, and particularly the playoffs KG fails to show up. The fact that Iverson (who is 6 feet tall and not 7 feet tall) has done more with less talent around him than KG has ever done in the span of both of their entire careers says a lot more than the hideous number-crunching will ever say. Don't say AI had Larry Brown. KG had Skip Saunders who is one of the best coaches in the league. I have yet to see KG put the team on his back, like a REAL franchise player is suppose to do. Only one game in his entire career did he do that. And he still almost messed that up in the final minutes of that game as well.
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Post by HoyasSkins on Mar 30, 2005 23:45:54 GMT -5
The fact is KG is one of the elite players in the NBA, your personal dislike of him does not change that. The one critique of his game is that he does not take the last shot, but the same can be said of Shaq or Duncan. Big men are just not as suited for game winning shots as guards like Jordan, Kobe, or even Gilbert Arenas. Shaq and Duncan rarely ever take the last shot either; they are just hidden because they have exceptional guards (Kobe, Wade, Parker) who take control toward the end of games. Guards that Garnett never had the fortune of playing with.
Your assumption that this inability is a direct result of lack of effort or poor mental toughness is very far off base. Garnett does step his game up for the entire fourth quarter as a whole when the game is on the line. As far as I am concerned, every basket counts as two points, every rebound gains possesion, and every assist has the same result, regardless of the time and situation. Therefore, the first quarter is just as important as the second, which is just as important as the fourth. Unfortunately for some, there is a perception that baskets are more important later in games.
In regards to the Iverson or Garnett debate, neither has ever won anything notable. To say that Iverson has done more in his career is untrue. In my opinion, getting to the finals in the western conference is much more impressive than doing the same in the east. If Iverson had been playing on the Timberwolves the last few years, he would have gone no further than KG. I know that we all love Iverson, but the fact is that Garnett has been the better player.
Lastly, the idea that Georgetown, an average high-major at best, would turn down a player that was similar to KG is ludicrous, if we can get anywhere near Macklin, we should pounce.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 31, 2005 0:04:50 GMT -5
if we can get anywhere near Macklin, we should pounce. That says it all. Everything else in this thread is irrelevant as far as Im concerned, even though I voiced opinion on it earlier.... All that matters is that Macklin is a huge talent, and if can get him on the Hilltop it would be HUGE for us, especially if he stays a few years. Amazing how a nickname touched off all this.
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