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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 3, 2013 12:16:58 GMT -5
Professor, you're moving the goal posts here. The loss of Whitt forced Coach to lean on other players more than he otherwise would have liked, and the results have been revelatory in my mind. Also, obviously no one doubted otto's talent at any point, but if you can't see that whitt's absence has opened up the court for him on the offensive end, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not blaming JTIII. It was simply a matter of circumstance.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 3, 2013 12:26:51 GMT -5
It's a matter of popinion, but 16 minutes in 8 BE games is not meaningful minutes (12 of those were against Seton Hall and 1 yesterday). Well one he's a walk on which is an indication of his talent level. And too just watching his movement he moves rather awkwardly. And his 3pt foul at the end of the half really almost turned the tied and let St. Johns back into the game. Against a better team we can't afford to have someone who is going to be overwhelmed during a meaningful part of the game. We were up by nearly 20 when he came in. It's not like it was a 1 pt game with 2 minutes left. I agree he shouldn't be getting critical minutes but to argue anything other then that he has played garbage minutes is illogical.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 3, 2013 12:30:36 GMT -5
I wonder how much the lack of PT for the bench was also due to the top 5 not performing on offense. JT3 was trying to make that group work offensively before he just gave up on them. He was trying different pieces but Whit's suspension forced his hand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 12:47:24 GMT -5
What’s up with guhoyas.com? Is the site down? Also does anyone know if you can rewatch the game online?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 3, 2013 13:20:31 GMT -5
On the contrary. I believe the post-Greg play demonstrates that III is not the stubborn coach some have made him out to be but one who adjusts to a situation presented to him. This may have been his best coaching stretch in a very long time. Just look at the players on the court and ask youself: man for man, is this a tournament team? I think the answer is no but, as a team, they are a tournament team, thanks to some great coaching and players responding. But the original point, which I agree with, is that it took LOSING a player for III to realize that he had a combination of guys that would play better than the squad was with Whit. III has always been too stubborn to give young guys a chance, and if Greg hadn't been suspended, I don't think we would have ever discovered some of the talents we had on our bench. The project with this logic is it assumes as fact that we're better with this rotation than we would be with Greg in the starting line up which is something you cannot prove. We've been playing well, but you can't say as fact we wouldn't be playing even better with Greg. Just because the guys on the bench have stepped up and shown they can play doesn't mean that they're a better option than playing greg and not them. It assumes that Jabril and DSR could not have had these performances with Greg also getting time which is not proven. Like JT3 has said a number of times yeah we're 6-1 without Greg but with him maybe we're 7-0.
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Post by NoBoumtjeInTheYaYaRoom on Feb 3, 2013 13:31:01 GMT -5
I was lambasted on here a while back for mentioning the Mark Madsen-esque qualities of Nate and the fact that NBA execs think he will be an eventual NBA player. In no way am I looking for a pat on the back or even insinuating he's an NBA player as of today. But with another year of development, are those thoughts so far-fetched?
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 3, 2013 14:25:29 GMT -5
But the original point, which I agree with, is that it took LOSING a player for III to realize that he had a combination of guys that would play better than the squad was with Whit. III has always been too stubborn to give young guys a chance, and if Greg hadn't been suspended, I don't think we would have ever discovered some of the talents we had on our bench. The project with this logic is it assumes as fact that we're better with this rotation than we would be with Greg in the starting line up which is something you cannot prove. We've been playing well, but you can't say as fact we wouldn't be playing even better with Greg. Just because the guys on the bench have stepped up and shown they can play doesn't mean that they're a better option than playing greg and not them. It assumes that Jabril and DSR could not have had these performances with Greg also getting time which is not proven. Like JT3 has said a number of times yeah we're 6-1 without Greg but with him maybe we're 7-0. It's also ignoring another major event the happened the same time as Greg being suspended, which was Pitt absolutely blasting us at home. I think it is just as likely that was a major wake-up call for III and the team as losing Whittington. Unfortunately for Whitt and III, both events happened at the same time so III doesn't get any credit for making changes and and we Whittington is an addition by subtraction. Now it's like we are lucky we lost our second best player so our coach could stop holding us back by playing him. It is also ignoring the fact that DSR and Trawick and Bown aren't just playing more they are playing better. If they had been playing like this when we had Whittington, we wouldn't have had such issues. Now, one could argue they're improvement has been sped up because of increased playing time. Not sure I buy this arguement except maybe with Bowen, but it's valid. Also I think JTIII's stubborness is overblown. PE Jr didn't make the rotation until mid January his junior year and we have had numerous freshman starters and guys get increased playing time as the season wears on. Jesse Sapp's role increased as his freshman year went on as did Rivers and does anyone remember Nikita? The only player who could have been useful that didn't play was Vee Sanford but even then he was behind Chris, Austin, and Jason. Yes, he prefers a 8 man rotation, but that's really not that rare or weird.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Feb 3, 2013 16:54:42 GMT -5
Nate and Mark Madsen are both white and pasty...that's where the comparisons should both end...Nate isn't nearly the player Madsen was in college...he was close to an all-american at Stanford...
Find another comparison that this time isn't based on racial makeup
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Post by NoBoumtjeInTheYaYaRoom on Feb 3, 2013 18:08:05 GMT -5
Tough-nosed. Intangible-laden. Hustle plays. Strong on glass. Defensive communicator. High basketball IQ. Not sure where skin color plays a part.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Feb 3, 2013 18:32:38 GMT -5
Madsen was a primary guy in college...a scorer and a defender, which Nate hasn't been....Nate is having a career year and he's a number four guy at best....the comparison simply doesn't fit
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 3, 2013 19:38:12 GMT -5
daytonahoya31, we'll revisit the issue after the end of next season when Nate is drafted.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Feb 3, 2013 19:41:34 GMT -5
i hate comparisons baed on race...it really lazy. I actually try and make them cross race because usually its more interesting...
how about nate and horace grant without the 15 foot jumper. (i have no clue his career in college was mind you.) others... otto and the guy from butler hopkins and hansburough (okay actually i just wish hopkins would play like that) starks - i got no one...maybe brent price (not as good a shooter as mark) jabril and anthony mason - yea its not cross race. i don't care - neither guy would i like to be in an argument with...
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 3, 2013 21:00:39 GMT -5
Professor, you're moving the goal posts here. The loss of Whitt forced Coach to lean on other players more than he otherwise would have liked, and the results have been revelatory in my mind. Also, obviously no one doubted otto's talent at any point, but if you can't see that whitt's absence has opened up the court for him on the offensive end, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not blaming JTIII. It was simply a matter of circumstance. I think you bring up the key point here. With Whit out of the lineup, Otto has really asserted himself. I am not sure Whit and Otto co-exist well because they wait for the other to make a play instead of taking over on their own. I also think Whit's absence caused a sense of urgency for everyone else to compensate for the missing rebounding, offense and defense. To try to use this ordeal as an example that exposes JT3 as a stubborn/lesser coach is absurd. III is having one of his finest seasons as a coach. This team is one of his least talented/experienced teams, however, they are performing at the same level or better than many of his previous teams. Whit's suspension has allowed a lot of players to step up in his absence, but who could possibly criticize III for playing Whittington over Bowen or DSR? Yes, this team has found some great unintended chemistry on the court, and therefore JT3 should not get all the credit, however, I do not see how this could be used to slight him at all.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Feb 3, 2013 21:57:19 GMT -5
This team is playing defense at an elite level. III is the coach.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 3, 2013 22:37:24 GMT -5
Due to family commitments, I couldn't watch the game live yesterday, but was excited to see the replay this morning .. until I remembered this was a CBS event and therefore unavailable on WatchESPN. Is anyone aware of replay options online? I checked CBSSports.com and didn't see anything other than a couple minutes of highlights. tark, I'm horrible in terms of doing it quickly but I'm more than happy to burn you a copy and send it your way if you weren't able to see it. PM me your info and I'll send it your way when I get around to burning it from my DVR.
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Post by NoBoumtjeInTheYaYaRoom on Feb 3, 2013 22:41:25 GMT -5
Daytona, Im simply not sure why youre so heart set against the comparison. Just my opinion. But I will say that Even as a senior Madsen was a 3rd option at best. Correct me if im wrong but im fairly confident he was their 3rd or 4th leading scorer. Certainly Casey Jacobsen and David Moseley averaged more points. And maybe even Jarron Collins.
You dont think nate can average 11 or 12 pts a game next year? Isnt that around what Madsens avg was? In late game situations nate is already tasked with guarding opposing teams center. Hes not our best help defender? The anchor of a defense that ranks top 10?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 3, 2013 22:44:43 GMT -5
i hate comparisons baed on race...it really lazy. I actually try and make them cross race because usually its more interesting... how about nate and horace grant without the 15 foot jumper. (i have no clue his career in college was mind you.) others... otto and the guy from butler hopkins and hansburough (okay actually i just wish hopkins would play like that) starks - i got no one...maybe brent price (not as good a shooter as mark) jabril and anthony mason - yea its not cross race. i don't care - neither guy would i like to be in an argument with... Bordering on delusional.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 3, 2013 22:48:32 GMT -5
Nate can certainly be a 12 point a game option in college. And I think he's got more to give than we've seen. That said, he's not an NBA guy. Which position is he less suited for? The 3 or the 4? If he were 3 inches taller and had better hops, maybe. Unfortunately, he's Jeff's height without Jeff's skill and Jeff is a bit of a tweener.
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Post by NoBoumtjeInTheYaYaRoom on Feb 3, 2013 22:54:13 GMT -5
In the NBA, at 6'9, he'd be an undersized 4....just like, GASP, 6'9 Mark Madsen.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 3, 2013 22:55:11 GMT -5
He'd also be an underskilled 4 lacking the offensive ability of say a Jeff Green.
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