DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 26, 2009 3:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 26, 2009 8:07:12 GMT -5
Let's keep this discussion "clean" for a bit. I got on facebook this morning and was pretty appalled to see how many of my friends used the word "murderer" in their facebook statuses. Yeah, the guy made a mistake, but I'm of the mind that when someone dies, you put aside politics for a minute and be a bit respectful. (This coming from someone who was never in a position to vote for him, and honestly, I don't know if I would have if I could.)
There will never be another political family like the Kennedy family. That may be a good thing for the country. But you have to acknowledge their enormous role and service in this country.
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guru
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Post by guru on Aug 26, 2009 8:26:32 GMT -5
but I'm of the mind that when someone dies, you put aside politics for a minute and be a bit respectful. Apparently, Ted Kennedy did not concur. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 26, 2009 8:45:32 GMT -5
My brother in law's mother died from ALS several years ago. When she received her diagnosis, my brother in law noted something to me that I thought was very profound. He said that he felt fortunate, believe it or not. When I asked him why, he said that, even with this horrible news and all the sadness it brought, he was glad that at least his family was being given several months to spend with their mother and say goodbye to her.
I thought of that both when Ted Kennedy learned of his illness (I may have posted the story above back then too, can't remember) and again today when I heard of his passing. The man was given a death sentence, there's no two ways around it. And as tragic as that is, I think it is fortunate that he and his family were able to spend as much time together as they could before his inevitable passing.
Yes believe me, I have very strong feelings about Sen. Kennedy, both his personal history and his political career, even his political maneuverings right up until the end of his life. And you can rest assured that almost none of those feelings are positive.
But those thoughts are for another time. For today, that is pretty much the one feeling that I have, that I think his family, for all of their sadness today and in time to come, were lucky they were given these last months to spend with their loved one.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Aug 26, 2009 8:52:33 GMT -5
My deepest condolences to the Kennedy family. Despite only following politics for the past eight years or so, I have always admired Ted's long service to the Senate as an agent of change. Even as his health took a turn for the worse, he continued to work. For someone who called health care reform "the cause of his life," I am sad that he did not live to vote on this important legislation. He had asked the Massachusetts Governor Patrick to change the law to allow an immediate temporary replacement in the case something like this happened, but I don't know the status of that.
In any event, rest in peace, Senator Kennedy.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 26, 2009 8:56:17 GMT -5
Let's keep this discussion "clean" for a bit. I got on facebook this morning and was pretty appalled to see how many of my friends used the word "murderer" in their facebook statuses. Yeah, the guy made a mistake, but I'm of the mind that when someone dies, you put aside politics for a minute and be a bit respectful. (This coming from someone who was never in a position to vote for him, and honestly, I don't know if I would have if I could.) There will never be another political family like the Kennedy family. That may be a good thing for the country. But you have to acknowledge their enormous role and service in this country. Why is it appalling when it's indisputably true? Frankly, I find it appalling that in all the coverage of his life this morning (that I've seen on ABC) there hasn't been one mention of the woman he killed. |
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 26, 2009 9:22:44 GMT -5
Let's keep this discussion "clean" for a bit. I got on facebook this morning and was pretty appalled to see how many of my friends used the word "murderer" in their facebook statuses. Yeah, the guy made a mistake, but I'm of the mind that when someone dies, you put aside politics for a minute and be a bit respectful. (This coming from someone who was never in a position to vote for him, and honestly, I don't know if I would have if I could.) There will never be another political family like the Kennedy family. That may be a good thing for the country. But you have to acknowledge their enormous role and service in this country. Why is it appalling when it's indisputably true? Frankly, I find it appalling that in all the coverage of his life this morning (that I've seen on ABC) there hasn't been one mention of the woman he killed. It's also true that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Do you drop that line at your best friend's wedding? |
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Aug 26, 2009 9:27:11 GMT -5
Let's keep this discussion "clean" for a bit. I got on facebook this morning and was pretty appalled to see how many of my friends used the word "murderer" in their facebook statuses. Yeah, the guy made a mistake, but I'm of the mind that when someone dies, you put aside politics for a minute and be a bit respectful. (This coming from someone who was never in a position to vote for him, and honestly, I don't know if I would have if I could.) There will never be another political family like the Kennedy family. That may be a good thing for the country. But you have to acknowledge their enormous role and service in this country. Why is it appalling when it's indisputably true? Frankly, I find it appalling that in all the coverage of his life this morning (that I've seen on ABC) there hasn't been one mention of the woman he killed. If Laura Bush died today, would you be appalled if they did not talk about the classmate who she killed in a car wreck after running a stop sign? |
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guru
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Post by guru on Aug 26, 2009 9:33:16 GMT -5
Why is it appalling when it's indisputably true? Frankly, I find it appalling that in all the coverage of his life this morning (that I've seen on ABC) there hasn't been one mention of the woman he killed. If Laura Bush died today, would you be appalled if they did not talk about the classmate who she killed in a car wreck after running a stop sign? Uh huh. 16-year-old girl runs a stop sign and the accident kills her good friend versus 37-year-old married father of three drives off a bridge after leaving a late night party with a woman who is not his wife, then flees the scene, sleeps it off in a motel room and waits a full day before informing the police, who have already fond the dead woman's body. Same. Exact. Thing. Good point. |
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Aug 26, 2009 9:44:48 GMT -5
If Laura Bush died today, would you be appalled if they did not talk about the classmate who she killed in a car wreck after running a stop sign? Uh huh. 16-year-old girl runs a stop sign and the accident kills her good friend versus 37-year-old married father of three drives off a bridge after leaving a late night party with a woman who is not his wife, then flees the scene, sleeps it off in a motel room and waits a full day before informing the police, who have already fond the dead woman's body. Same. Exact. Thing. Good point. Nothing is ever the exact same thing, every situation is unique. But if we are going to start bringing up past wrongs to splash some cold water on the hagiography that inevitably accompanies a major public figure's death, where should the line be drawn? I think it is indisputable that what Ted Kennedy did was, morally speaking, worse than what Laura Bush did. But where do you draw the dividing line? And wherever it is, why there? |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 26, 2009 9:59:46 GMT -5
May he rest in peace. I did not agree with his politics, but even I can self-impose a moratorium on criticism for a day.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 26, 2009 10:02:14 GMT -5
Why is it appalling when it's indisputably true? Because the Golden Rule applies here - don't speak ill of the dead because you don't want someone to be crapping all over your memory the minute you pass away. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Aug 26, 2009 10:15:24 GMT -5
Uh huh. 16-year-old girl runs a stop sign and the accident kills her good friend versus 37-year-old married father of three drives off a bridge after leaving a late night party with a woman who is not his wife, then flees the scene, sleeps it off in a motel room and waits a full day before informing the police, who have already fond the dead woman's body. Same. Exact. Thing. Good point. Nothing is ever the exact same thing, every situation is unique. But if we are going to start bringing up past wrongs to splash some cold water on the hagiography that inevitably accompanies a major public figure's death, where should the line be drawn? I think it is indisputable that what Ted Kennedy did was, morally speaking, worse than what Laura Bush did. But where do you draw the dividing line? And wherever it is, why there? No easy answers, that's for sure. And I don't think it's appropriate for news coverage to focus on Chappaquiddick today - but you can't write the man's obituary without it being at least a full paragraph, and near the top. I would expect an obit of Laura Bush to include the accident as well, just not as prominently. It certainly affected the rest of her life. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 26, 2009 10:15:35 GMT -5
Like him or not, there is no arguing with his long record of political accomplishment. There is also no arguing about which Massachusetts Senator's office a constituent could call with a concern and have that concern specifically, often personally, addressed in a very timely manner.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 26, 2009 11:31:15 GMT -5
He had a tremendous record of ground-breaking legislation, and for that, had an amazing and positive effect on this country.
Like Boz, I'm glad his family got a chance to say goodbye; I'm sure there is somewhat relief at the suffering being over.
He's also a tremendous example of how people deserve second chances and what they can accomplish if they are granted them. Always something to think about.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 26, 2009 12:41:31 GMT -5
First, I am a Massachusetts liberal who has voted for Senator Kennedy and find myself a bit surprised at how saddened I am by a death that we all knew was coming of a man I have never met. That said, I am not really a fan of the whole "speak no ill of the dead" thing, especially on the internet when discussing public figures - I really don't care about showing proper respect, offering thoughts and prayers, and other totally hollow and meaningless gestures. In Teddy's case, it is absolutely relevant to discuss his shortcomings in looking back on his life because they played such an integral role in who he was and what he was and was not able to accomplish, and I think the obituaries and reflections I have read are fair in not glossing over the roles Chappaquidick, alcohol, and womanizing may have played in his life.
In the end, I find him to be a fascinating character and a man of intense contradictions. On the one hand, he was given everything in life- wealth, education, a name that got him elected with no real experience (to paraphrase one obit I saw "Most people grow up and then enter politics, the Kennedy's did it in reverse"), and second chances galore. On the other hand, he overcame a great deal (certainly some of it self-created)- deaths of all 3 older brothers at a young age, a perception of being the underachieving youngest child, a debilitating injury, personal scandal, first wife's alcoholism. Essentially he is a man who had it all, nearly saw it all crumble before him, then somehow rebuilt a towering legacy as a legislator through the force of his personality and intellect. He took what many perceived as weaknesses as a young man and turned it into the defining Senatorial career of the past 50 years. And yet he could have had so much more had he not had so many flaws and misfortunes.
To me, his life is almost Shakespearian, or even Greek, as a tragic hero. The admiration he gained from so many of his peers across the aisle is testimony, in my mind, to what he could have achieved but for his unforgivably bad judgment at Chappaquiddick. So I celebrate what he did accomplish, recognize his tragic flaws, and hope there are other leaders who can combine his best attributes with character that is beyond reproach and an ability to take his causes forward.
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Post by fsohoya on Aug 26, 2009 13:01:25 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 26, 2009 13:02:17 GMT -5
A lot of elegies on the Web paint this as the end of a dynasty; if so, EMK was a fascinating subject to end it with. For 50 or so years he was busier being a "Kennedy" than anything else, it was only in the last 15-20 that "Teddy" became something more than the younger brother.
Some political families disappear (Adams, Lee, Roosevelt), some fade away (Saltonstall, Lodge, the Byrds of Virginia) and some are still around (Bush, Taft, Udall). The Kennedy's aren't going away for good, but their place in the sun is no longer there.
In life we are not judged on who we are but what we do with it, and in that sense his 47 years in the U.S. Senate is what will be remembered.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 26, 2009 14:18:11 GMT -5
First, I am a Massachusetts liberal who has voted for Senator Kennedy and find myself a bit surprised at how saddened I am by a death that we all knew was coming of a man I have never met. That said, I am not really a fan of the whole "speak no ill of the dead" thing, especially on the internet when discussing public figures - I really don't care about showing proper respect, offering thoughts and prayers, and other totally hollow and meaningless gestures. Oh, stop the nonsense. No one's asking you to say a rosary - there's a difference in hoping we can skip the "Michael Jackson should be remembered as a pedophile"/"a pervert has died" posts and asking people to whitewash his legacy. Saw an article this morning about how Kennedy's memorial will be like a "Wellstone Memorial on steroids" and laughed about the sheer ridiculousness of the statement. Putting aside the fact that Kennedy has had his farewell tour over the past year and didn't tragically die in the middle of a bitter campaign, there's no chance of that happening. MA is a one-party state and there simply aren't the hard feelings between the Kennedy clan and his foes. Orrin Hatch and Mitt Romney will not be booed at whatever service takes place. |
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 26, 2009 14:46:48 GMT -5
It is the end of an era for me, which began, when I was a freshman at Georgetown with JFK in the White House, and his assassination was in my sophomore year (I was outside my dorm room in New South, when I heard the news; also ending our first intercollegiate football game in over a decade). I met RFK outside the 1789, and several of my classmates used to go over to his house in McLean, one to teach the kids to play tennis and others to mow the lawn.
I have been trying to assess the legacy of the brothers in my mind, at least on a Christian level. Surely, all of them were personally flawed, but they all made a mark on the public level. If you are liberal, you were able to praise their accomplishments; if you are conservative, you probably didn't have much good to say about their politics. One of the biggest accomplishments was the Cuban missile crisis, which I think most of us have to give JFK credit (surely as a freshman at Georgetown, this was a very scary time) for his stand. I think all of them were advocates for civil rights and the poor. Does that trump their personal flaws.
Anyway, may Ted Kennedy rest in peace.
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