Palin is the choice

[GIGAFAN99]

Sept 1, 2008 14:57:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

Sept 1, 2008 14:30:19 GMT -5 sead43 said:

just a thought: does anyone see a hint (or more) of sexism in a lot of the comments both in the media coverage of Palin and in this thread? with regard to the whole "experience" question, would we be as outraged at the prospect of a male governor of a U.S. state (even Alaska) becoming Vice President as we are at the “inexperienced” Sarah Palin becoming VP? On the family issues, would we be questioning Todd Palin's merits as a father if he were running with an autistic baby and a pregnant daughter at home as much as we are Sarah's as a mother?

i'm not one to usually be too sensitive or worry too much about being "PC", and believe me i've found myself having similar thoughts to a lot of what's been said about her. but when you step back and think about it, is it possible that we haven't come as far as we think we have in accepting a female leader, despite our patting ourselves on the back just because she's been nominated?

(1) Obviously we would have the same "experience" outrage if she was a male. We've been talking about a 4-year U.S. Senator in exactly the same terms as far as experience! If Barack gets the "experience" treatment, and Palin gets the "experience" treatment, then I don't think you can say that it is AT ALL related to gender. That's nonsense.

(2) The second point, I think you may be a bit more correct. For better or worse, mothers are seen as more connected to the raising of children. Admittedly, I grew up w/ a stay-at-home mom, and I'm not sure how I might have been impacted by being raised in a different environment. I'm not saying that when I have kids, I want their mother to stay home at all (I actually believe in more equal responsibility between parents, but that's certainly nowhere on my mind now), but I do appreciate the value of parents that are very close to their children's lives on a daily basis. Especially when it is a daughter who gets pregnant, people are going to at least consider where her mother fit in the picture. I also think the gender of the child involved has an impact here. If her son had impregnated another girl or got arrested for some kind of violence, we'd be looking at the father more so than the mother.

My answer to #2 is simply "yes." If this were the son, we would not be talking about the father. Come on. It's all the fact that she's a woman. People talked about Hillary's fat a** in her pantsuits. I haven't heard someone say something about Biden having man boobs or anything. I'm not a PC lover either but I do think that comments about female candidates can get pretty appalling.

[jerseyhoya34]

Sept 1, 2008 15:08:35 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Sept 1, 2008 12:51:15 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

The other news item today is that Todd Palin has a DUI record. Taken together with the other news of the day, I get the picture of a family that might do better in Alaska than the Vice President's mansion.

You're right. Much better to have someone who admitted to using cocaine in the White House than the spouse of the VP with 20+ year-old DUI (that old, right?).

I weighed that in the context of McCain's sins and figured that someone's youthful transgressions were less severe than an adult's having an affair with a beer heiress, applying for a marriage license before getting a divorce, and all but abandoning his loving wife.

[strummer8526]

Sept 1, 2008 15:13:53 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

Sept 1, 2008 14:57:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

(1) Obviously we would have the same "experience" outrage if she was a male. We've been talking about a 4-year U.S. Senator in exactly the same terms as far as experience! If Barack gets the "experience" treatment, and Palin gets the "experience" treatment, then I don't think you can say that it is AT ALL related to gender. That's nonsense.

(2) The second point, I think you may be a bit more correct. For better or worse, mothers are seen as more connected to the raising of children. Admittedly, I grew up w/ a stay-at-home mom, and I'm not sure how I might have been impacted by being raised in a different environment. I'm not saying that when I have kids, I want their mother to stay home at all (I actually believe in more equal responsibility between parents, but that's certainly nowhere on my mind now), but I do appreciate the value of parents that are very close to their children's lives on a daily basis. Especially when it is a daughter who gets pregnant, people are going to at least consider where her mother fit in the picture. I also think the gender of the child involved has an impact here. If her son had impregnated another girl or got arrested for some kind of violence, we'd be looking at the father more so than the mother.

My answer to #2 is simply "yes." If this were the son, we would not be talking about the father. Come on. It's all the fact that she's a woman. People talked about Hillary's fat a** in her pantsuits. I haven't heard someone say something about Biden having man boobs or anything. I'm not a PC lover either but I do think that comments about female candidates can get pretty appalling.

Ever hear anything about Biden's hair plugs? How about Obama's big ears? Or Edwards's hair and youthful good looks? Kucinich looks like an elf. Cheney looks like the Penguin. Ted Kennedy sometimes looks drunk, and Hillary sometimes looks big in pantsuits. Appearance is appearance. It plays regardless of party or gender. We're just used to averagely unappealing old men, so that's not too often pointed out because it's redundant. But physical flaws get discussed with everyone.

The 20 year old DUI is silly. That's worthless politically and in terms of giving us a better idea of who these people are.

[Nevada Hoya]

Gov. Palin is impressive in that she is governor of Alaska and has managed to raise five kids, including one with Downs Syndrome. Being VP in a far off place is another matter. My sister has spent a lot of her life caring for her daughter with DS. It is not easy.

[GIGAFAN99]

Sept 1, 2008 15:42:17 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

Sept 1, 2008 15:13:53 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

My answer to #2 is simply "yes." If this were the son, we would not be talking about the father. Come on. It's all the fact that she's a woman. People talked about Hillary's fat a** in her pantsuits. I haven't heard someone say something about Biden having man boobs or anything. I'm not a PC lover either but I do think that comments about female candidates can get pretty appalling.

Ever hear anything about Biden's hair plugs? How about Obama's big ears? Or Edwards's hair and youthful good looks? Kucinich looks like an elf. Cheney looks like the Penguin. Ted Kennedy sometimes looks drunk, and Hillary sometimes looks big in pantsuits. Appearance is appearance. It plays regardless of party or gender. We're just used to averagely unappealing old men, so that's not too often pointed out because it's redundant. But physical flaws get discussed with everyone.

The 20 year old DUI is silly. That's worthless politically and in terms of giving us a better idea of who these people are.

Let's not act like every single one of those physical flaws are non-sexual EXCEPT for the woman's. Hillary's a** and Palin looking "hot" are not created equal with Ted Kennedy looking like he's had a martini. That's what I'm saying.

[The Stig]

Sept 1, 2008 15:11:13 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Sept 1, 2008 12:20:25 GMT -5 The Stig said:

Which begs the question: Should a mother of 5, including a child with Down's Syndrome and a pregnant child, have better things to do than a political campaign?

You're not a woman, so maybe you can be excused on this point. But a lot of women look up to someone like Palin who can balance family and a job. I know my wife is very impressed by what she's learning about her so far. (Disclaimer, my wife is a wacko from Montana, one of those western states where they hunt and like thinks like moose stew, so her view doesn't really count).

Balancing a family and a job is great. But Vice President is more than just your normal job, and caring for a kid with Down's Syndrome and a pregnant teen (plus three other children) is more than just your average parenting job.

There's also a HUGE difference between a mother working hard to make ends meet financially and a parent trotting around the country to further her political ambitions. I think it's very admirable when a parent, especially a mother, puts aside their own leisure to work extra hard to ensure their children have the best they can give them. However, I don't see Palin's pursuit of political office as an example of that. In fact, I think it's almost the opposite - she's putting her own personal ambitions before her family.

I would be saying the same things if it was a male candidate with the same family situation. Like I said earlier, l thought less of Edwards because he refused to put his political ambitions aside when his wife had cancer. If Obama had a similar family situation to Palin, I would certainly be questioning why he was running for office.

One of my ultra-Conservative friends said that Pawlenty was the pick for VP in the middle of last week, but McCain overrode that and made an executive decision to pick Palin. If that's true, then the vetting process on her might not have been as thorough as it would have been had she been the first pick.

[HoyaNyr320]

Sept 1, 2008 15:08:35 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Sept 1, 2008 12:51:15 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

The other news item today is that Todd Palin has a DUI record. Taken together with the other news of the day, I get the picture of a family that might do better in Alaska than the Vice President's mansion.

You're right. Much better to have someone who admitted to using cocaine in the White House than the spouse of the VP with 20+ year-old DUI (that old, right?).

We already have someone who used such substances as cocaine in the White House

[GIGAFAN99]

Sept 1, 2008 17:11:10 GMT -5 HoyaNyr320 said:

Sept 1, 2008 15:08:35 GMT -5 kchoya said:

You're right. Much better to have someone who admitted to using cocaine in the White House than the spouse of the VP with 20+ year-old DUI (that old, right?).

We already have someone who used such substances as cocaine in the White House

That's why the house is white baby! It's the third, fourth, and fifth rail of American politics.

[TC]

If anything, Todd Palin is coming out of this scott-free. His DWI is a drop-in-the-bucket, and they were pretty smart to dump it on the pregnancy newsday. And for everyone questioning why a crime committed by the spouse of a VP pick is an issue, I give you 1984, where Geraldine Ferrarro's husband was major news because of his tax return.

[SirSaxa]

The palin pregnancy won't make any difference.

She is against abortion and for guns.
For "the base", what else is there?

[strummer8526]

I enjoy an analogy that a friend just jokingly made:

Obama:Oprah::Palin:Maury

Also, James Carville on Larry King just tore the idea of Palin as VP a new one.

[Boz]

At least we learned one thing today: Daily Kos as a news source? Yeah, uhhh, not so much.

Kind of hard to believe that her daughter gave birth to a baby with Down's Syndrome, then pretty much turned around and immediately got herself knocked up again.

Obama was very classy today though. I applaud him for his remarks.

[jerseyhoya34]

Andrea Mitchell discussed earlier that the campaign's vetting of Palin was not complete, and the campaign is now sending operatives to Alaska to help manage the mess. The baby issue will probably have run its course by Tuesday, but there are some lasting issues, including her legal defense in connection with Troopergate, former membership in a fringe secessionist group, misrepresentation of position on Bridge to Nowhere, inexperience, etc.

[strummer8526]

"...former membership in a fringe secessionist group..."

Hahahaha. This is really getting fun. By the end of the week, we'll find out that she's some kind of maniacal Bond villain or the actual OJ killer or something. I wonder if she played any role in forging the documents for the Chinese gymnasts.

[GIGAFAN99]

It will be a riot...when there has been no attention paid to the momentum Obama built against McCain and we're talking about whether Sarah Palin went over the moose bag limit in Alaska.

Seriously. Do the Democrats want to again try to prove they're smarter than everyone else or do they want the presidency?

The debates haven't even started yet. Get back to the message before every Che Guevara t-shirt with a blog lets this get off the rails.

[jerseyhoya34]

Sept 1, 2008 21:45:43 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

It will be a riot...when there has been no attention paid to the momentum Obama built against McCain and we're talking about whether Sarah Palin went over the moose bag limit in Alaska.

Seriously. Do the Democrats want to again try to prove they're smarter than everyone else or do they want the presidency?

The debates haven't even started yet. Get back to the message before every Che Guevara t-shirt with a blog lets this get off the rails.

There is little attention being paid to Obama right now because we're in the middle of the Republican Convention, and he has rightly cut back on his events due to Gustav. Obama's campaign appears to be supremely focused, but message board posters do not have to be. They got their convention bounce and have been ahead ever since they defeated Hillary Clinton. The ground game that they have put together in every battleground state is impressive, if not unprecedented.

Out of all of the issues with Palin, the secessionist angle most undercuts McCain's "America First" message. The motto of the Alaska Independence Party is "Alaska First."

[TC]

So seriously, Romney, Lieberman, or Pawlenty, who are the Republicans going to go with really?

[strummer8526]

When some of us said that Palin would totally kill the "experience" argument for the Republicans, I think this is what we were expecting:

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Youtube clip of Alaska Independence Party meeting discussing Palin's membership in AIP: (its at 6:02; you can also listen to Grizzly Adams discuss how the American military "occupied" their territory and imposed American rule - not exactly consonant with the "America First" message). He states that "to get along - she joined the Republican Party" and "is pretty well sympathetic because of her former membership." There is also a later discussion of how AIP members and other nativist party should join other political parties to get elected . . .

Palin also taped an introduction for the AIP convention:

Here's their website: www.akip.org/index.html

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Also, since the Palin pick - Hillary supporters have moved more solidly to Obama - those who were already likely to vote for McCain are voting for him.

www.gallup.com/poll/109957/Obama-Gains-Among-Former-Clinton-Supporters.aspx