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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 14:52:00 GMT -5
Sheldon Williams offensive game AFTER attending Duke is about as good as Dash Riley's coming into G-town (slightly blowing smoke). But the point is Duke is horrible at developing Bigs (even if they land some talented ones, they don't get better on the offensive side of the ball).
Hollis is a Hoya. Are we seriously going to go there again?
Boozer is not a center, he is a PF. Damn good one, but a PF nonetheless.
When it comes to head to head recruiting battles in recent years, we win for now, in VALUE of recruits. Monroe + Thompson > Dawkins + Plumlee bros (as far as talent is concerned).
If I were someone like Ryan Kelly, I would love Duke. I would love playing in cobblestone-stained-glass tiny-bathroomed Cameron. Yes, its historic, but it isn't an NBA arena.
I would love playing for Mike "Spend my summers with the NBA guys" Keruoweuroqpeoquruqo.
Coaching NBA guys and preparing guys to play in the NBA by COACHING THEM are not the same thing. III prepares guys for the pro's, Coach K prepares guys to pass to his SG so he can jack up trash get drafted, end their career in a motorcycle wreck or get 2 DUI's before ever playing in the pros.
I like Singler, a lot, but that's it. Not a fan of any big on that team since Boozer (Williams included.)
If you are a true 4/5 (i.e. some semblance of a back to the basket game) Duke is not a good fit.
Duke needs athletes to be competitive again, maybe K stopped recruiting them when they started using Duke as a launching pad to go pro. (See, e.g., Brand and Magette and Deng.)
Either way, Duke is not the launching pad that it once was, it never has been, nor will it be Big Man U, and if you like jacking ill advised 3's, Duke is your home.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 6, 2008 14:54:25 GMT -5
We're pretty confident about Thornton and Hairston due to confidence of some of our most reliable insiders and interviews with Dawkins, Hairston, and Thornton stating their enthusiasm about the possibility of playing together in college. Thornton was so overwhelmed when Coach K called him that he told a Duke website he'd likley make his decision by sometime next year. Not saying Duke doesn't have a good shot but "back in the day" when K gave a phone call to a kid not ranked in most folks' Top 25 with an offer that kid would crap in his pants and commit on the spot. Now it seems only UNC has that type of pull. We're still waiting for the inevitable Hairston commit. We're closing in on about 7 weeks now since Josh came back from that visit, right? Maybe K will get Kobe or LeBron to call Josh to speed up the process. How dare he keeps K waiting. Don't buy into the stuff about recruits going as a package deal because they want to play together. Its said all the time and it doesn't happen nearly as much as folks think. But if Josh and Tyler do want to go to the same college there is always Gtown as an option, the school that has been recruiting both of them the longest. Maybe K can at the 11th hour recruit another of their DC Assault teammates though to reel them in.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 6, 2008 14:55:33 GMT -5
ok ok boys, thats good enough; youve let this guy have it, now back off. an acc center and a BE center are completely different and neither is going to see it how the other does. All this will be settled on January 17, on the court, as it should.
but i will offer that, in terms of post season success, tim duncan is by far the best center in the league- and he is pretty much a classic center.
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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 14:57:43 GMT -5
damn it jgalt... timmy d played in the ACC. He is, however, the end of the real center in the ACC.
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Post by shf9 on Aug 6, 2008 15:07:11 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the big man/NBA thing here; let me know when JTIII has any track record in that regard. I'm not going to guarantee Thornton or Hairston; I know how this game goes. All I did was explain why Duke fans feel confident.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 6, 2008 15:07:30 GMT -5
damn it jgalt... timmy d played in the ACC. He is, however, the end of the real center in the ACC. oh i know, but wake aint duke so im ok with it. he has so much success in the acc because he is a true center (although many call him a power forward for some reason) and no other team in that league plays guys who can guard a top back to the basket post player.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 6, 2008 15:09:22 GMT -5
I understand what you consider a "true center," no doubt the Ewings, Mutombos, Mournings, and Hibberts being the model, but I'm going to argue that the role of the center has greatly changed and is no longer defined by what those "true centers" offered. True bit with all due respect Carlos was a top ten player in high school who fell to the second round DESPITE getting exposure on a very successful Duke team. Why? Because K doesn't care about developing big men who don't play out on the perimeter. He was more willing to let Jason Williams jack up 20 three point shots per game instead and Carlos didn't get nearly as enough touches as he should have. When did K become Rick Pitino (of the Kentucky era) by the way? And lets not start with Shav, Josh McRobrts, Zoubek (top 20 to top 30 recruit), Sanders, the big African kid from England who was a McDAA a few years back and about a half dozen other big men during K's reign who fell way short of their stellar high school press clippings. I can't give K credit for developing NBA players when the majority of his high school All Americans never became the great players people thought they would be.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 6, 2008 15:10:16 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the big man/NBA thing here; let me know when JTIII has any track record in that regard. I'm not going to guarantee Thornton or Hairston; I know how this game goes. All I did was explain why Duke fans feel confident. Tell me when K gets you guys back to a Final Four.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 6, 2008 15:12:32 GMT -5
Tim Duncan is actually considered a Power Forward by NBA standards and remember who he played with upon joining the league--he's got Center post skills though--so I'll let you have that.
True Centers don't just include Hoyas--and one thing you'll find is that Hoya fans are not homers--however--when it comes to evaluating Centers--we're biased because of the tradition. Greg Oden and Dwight Howard are true Centers. Maybe it's because so many guys went directly to NBA for a while the college game only had projects play the position-but you have a generation of people who think PF's who play in paint are "Centers".
A lot of fans think Mike Sweetney was a "center"--and he was a poor man's Elton Brand--or should I say a hungry man's Elton Brand.
Kansas true Center is why they beat UNC last year--Cole Aldrich just mah-handled Tyler Hansbrough--and their physical/athletic frontline did a number overall. That is why I call post play and ACC post play different. You smack into someone and flop around in ACC-you get rewarded. Do that in other leagues/against true big men--you look overrated.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Aug 6, 2008 15:17:58 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the big man/NBA thing here; let me know when JTIII has any track record in that regard. I'm not going to guarantee Thornton or Hairston; I know how this game goes. All I did was explain why Duke fans feel confident. Tell me when K gets you guys back to a Final Four. I dont' like Duke--but I respect them and think they are changing their personnel evaluation to get them back to the level they once were. I think they've got a nice team returning--but still lack interior scoring and like Lawyer stated--I like Singler's game--but I also like Gerald Henderson's game as well--but I'm not high on Paulus or their inside people--and think it'll haunt them again come March--but they are well coached and good team. My points are in regard to inside play--and how they don't do a good job of developing Centers--which any fan who is impartial would agree upon. MCI even stated how Duke has often ignored their inside scorers--be it the PF who play down low and he's correct there as well. Guess it's just my taste--but I prefer to play Big East style of ball where physical play isn't punished and it's not considered a "slam into someone, flop, and go to FT line all game". Each their own though.
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Post by shf9 on Aug 6, 2008 15:22:34 GMT -5
True bit with all due respect Carlos was a top ten player in high school who fell to the second round DESPITE getting exposure on a very successful Duke team. Why? Because K doesn't care about developing big men who don't play out on the perimeter. He was more willing to let Jason Williams jack up 20 three point shots per game instead and Carlos didn't get nearly as enough touches as he should have. When did K become Rick Pitino (of the Kentucky era) by the way? Carlos was an All-American, yet he fell to the 2nd round because Coach K made him that and let him become that? How does that make sense? Why isn't the fault of NBA executives who said he was too short and slow? It's deliberate, biased thought. It's ridiculous to blame college coaches for the kids who didn't achieve but refuse to give credit for kids who achieved greatly. It's one or the other. K gave McRoberts every opportunity to achieve his potential; the kid touched the ball every time down the floor. By many standards, McRoberts had a stellar sophomore season, but because he went to Duke, it wasn't good enough for most people. If you won't give K credit for one of the greatest consecutive runs of college big men ever (Brand>Boozer>Williams), then you can't give JT Sr. credit for Ewing/Mutombo/Mourning. "Those guys would have been great anywhere," goes the logic. I'd rather give the credit to the coaches, personally.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 6, 2008 15:24:32 GMT -5
I just don't like the tone of "let me know when JTIII has any track record in that regard." JTIII has only been our coach for 4 years--4 years during which we have been EXTREMELY successful and Duke hasn't been exactly striking fear in others like maybe they once did. I'd rather let this guy know that III is in the process of creating his track record of excellence in a lot of different ways. Any skepticism or negativity about III can kindly go back to where it came from.
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Post by shf9 on Aug 6, 2008 15:27:45 GMT -5
^ sorry. that was a response to developing NBA talent. i really genuinely appreciate where JTIII has the program heading.
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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 15:30:22 GMT -5
True bit with all due respect Carlos was a top ten player in high school who fell to the second round DESPITE getting exposure on a very successful Duke team. Why? Because K doesn't care about developing big men who don't play out on the perimeter. He was more willing to let Jason Williams jack up 20 three point shots per game instead and Carlos didn't get nearly as enough touches as he should have. When did K become Rick Pitino (of the Kentucky era) by the way? Carlos was an All-American, yet he fell to the 2nd round because Coach K made him that and let him become that? How does that make sense? Why isn't the fault of NBA executives who said he was too short and slow? It's deliberate, biased thought. It's ridiculous to blame college coaches for the kids who didn't achieve but refuse to give credit for kids who achieved greatly. It's one or the other. K gave McRoberts every opportunity to achieve his potential; the kid touched the ball every time down the floor. By many standards, McRoberts had a stellar sophomore season, but because he went to Duke, it wasn't good enough for most people. If you won't give K credit for one of the greatest consecutive runs of college big men ever ([glow=red,2,300]Brand>Boozer>Williams[/glow]), then you can't give JT Sr. credit for Ewing/Mutombo/Mourning. "Those guys would have been great anywhere," goes the logic. I'd rather give the credit to the coaches, personally. Flawed logic. Ewing/Mutombo/Mourning were good BECAUSE of JT II. Brand/Boozer/Williams were good INSPITE of Coach K. (did one year under K really help brand's game? We've already addressed Boozer's plumit from a top 20 recruit to a 2nd round pick, is that Boozer's fault, or is he in the league inspite of K mis-using him? Williams I can't say anything about him, other than he made his name because of DEFENSE, not because K developed him into an offensive threat.)
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vcjack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by vcjack on Aug 6, 2008 15:31:04 GMT -5
ok ok boys, thats good enough; youve let this guy have it, now back off. an acc center and a BE center are completely different and neither is going to see it how the other does. All this will be settled on January 17, on the court, as it should. but i will offer that, in terms of post season success, tim duncan is by far the best center in the league- and he is pretty much a classic center. I would call Duncan the epitome of the Power Foward, not a center by any means
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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 15:32:42 GMT -5
Duncan is a TRUE PF, an OLD ERA ACC CENTER, and a freakish outcast in the current ACC.
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Post by shf9 on Aug 6, 2008 15:34:38 GMT -5
Really? Ewing was arguably the most heavily recruited high-school player EVER. Mourning and Mutombo weren't exactly no names.
Case in point of this ridiculous logic. What are your credentials to say one happened one way and the other differently?
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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 15:34:49 GMT -5
so we don't get locked up... congrats on picking up an offer from the attack of the clones Tyler.
When Duke invites you to Midnight Madness at McDonough so they can recruit EXACTLY like us, make sure you go.
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Post by hoyalawyer on Aug 6, 2008 15:37:53 GMT -5
Really? Ewing was arguably the most heavily recruited high-school player EVER. Mourning and Mutombo weren't exactly no names. Case in point of this ridiculous logic. What are your credentials to say one happened one way and the other differently? And how high did Ewing, Mourning and Mutombo (the least hyped recruit of the bunch) get drafted? They, even in your world, at least lived up to if not exceeded expectations based on HS rank to NBA draft position. The Dukees you mentioned were a one and done (so what impact did K have there?). a 2nd round pick (that should have gone lotto but for K's misuse of him). And a BUST (he must have improved so much to flop like he has).
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Post by shf9 on Aug 6, 2008 15:39:36 GMT -5
Brand played two years, Boozer went 2nd ("too small"), and Williams was a top-5 pick. All were All-Americans.
I'd say K did a pretty good job getting them where they needed to be.
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