Ye Gods....

[Boz]

....I'm not sure if Obama learned anything from his "bitter guns and Bibles" moment during the primary.

I don't think this wins over a lot of independent voters:


I'm not sure which is worse:
-- the inaccuracy (when I was in school, I couldn't even TAKE a foreign language until junior high; today, it's part of elemetary school curriculae; and there are plenty of people who come to this country who don't bother to learn English)

-- the arrogance of telling Americans they should be embarrassed (or saying he is embarrassed by Americans, take your pick)

-- or, well....just siding with the French.

One thing's for sure, the right is going to have a field day with this one.

[Jack]

What did he say that was wrong again? I am definitely embarrassed by my inability to speak another language, though I have no one to blame but myself. It's not like he is making this a major campaign talking point, I have no idea what even brought this up. Enjoy your field day, though, right wingers. Xenophobia wins more votes that aspiring to communicate with the rest of the world, I suppose.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2008 8:50:13 GMT -5 Boz said:

-- the arrogance of telling Americans they should be embarrassed (or saying he is embarrassed by Americans, take your pick)

I think it's more arrogant to travel abroad and assume that everyone should be able to speak English to accomodate us.

[Boz]

If you can't see the the problems with this statement, then I am just at a loss. He is basically mocking and laughing at the nation he wants to lead. And with no basis, I might add.

But automatically, that gets translated in the liberal midset to "if you have a problem with what he said, you are a xenophobe."

Yeah, thanks. That's ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but everyone I know who travels abroad makes an attempt to learn some of the language of the country they are visiting, so he's just plain wrong, arrogance and mockery aside. To generalize that this is the American opinon of visiting or living abroad (i.e. "everyone should speak English") is just wrong.

He's also flat out wrong in his "worry" that American students (Jack aside) are not learning foreign languages. It's not true. He can demagogue that to liberals all he wants, but it doesn't make it true.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2008 9:19:45 GMT -5 Boz said:

I don't know about you, but everyone I know who travels abroad makes an attempt to learn some of the language of the country they are visiting, so he's just plain wrong, arrogance and mockery aside. To generalize that this is the American opinon of visiting or living abroad (i.e. "everyone should speak English") is just wrong.

Boz - I'd argue that the people you know are the exception rather than the rule. There are certainly plenty of Americans who do make the effort, but they're outnumbered by those who don't. I will concede that many Europeans are multilingual simply due to proximity (if you're Dutch and you hop on a train in Amsterdam, you could be in French- or German-speaking territory within about an hour). And while language courses are offered early in life here, they are Priority #1,000 in most schools, where all anyone cares about is getting standardized testing numbers (which don't include foreign language testing, do they?) up to snuff.

The reality is that only about a quarter of Americans even have passports, meaning 3 out of every 4 Americans don't travel abroad. How can we claim to lead the world when our citizens don't make an effort to understand it? That's arrogance.

[SoCalHoya]

Aside from the practical benefits of being able to speak another language when you travel abroad, learning more languages is also an excellent way to promote cognitive development. Most notably in mathematics and critical thinking skills. We absolutely should be promoting foreign language study in schools more. And oddly enough, in my experience learning a foreign language was the one thing that helped me most to learn English grammar, vocabulary, etc.

So, Boz:

-- It sucks you should could not learn another language until junior high. That should change! It's much tougher starting out in your teens.

--I didn't take his statement as arrogance, though I understand for many that anyone that agrees with the French is de facto arrogant.

And I'm sure the right will have a field day with this. And that is sad!

[hoyatables]

Hunh. I don't see anything wrong with his statement. It's a perfectly valid point. We should all aspire to learn another language -- or two. And we all should aspire to try to understand the language of the country we're visiting. I know I was embarrassed in France when I couldn't speak a lick of French; I was also pretty happy in Germany that I could actually put my German to good use.

The truth is that we'll never be as multi-lingual as the Europeans who, as noted, are within an hour or two of 3-4 other languages. Given the more porous boundaries between the US and Spanish-speaking countries to the south, however, and the daily interaction that many of us have with those whose primary language is Spanish, I do think there's a good reason for making an effort to learn some basic Spanish.

[strummer8526]

I definitely see what both sides here are saying (as is my usual problem, which is why I struggle to figure out who to vote for and will probably never succeed in politics).

On the one side:

1. I wish I could speak a second language. In my town, Spanish was introduced as a 1 day a week class in 7th grade. It became 4 days a week OPTIONAL for 8th graders. (In my idiocy, I did not take it.) This was only 10 years ago, so unless schools have changed a lot, languages are not part of elementary education.

2. To some degree, I think there is a sort of arrogance--or at least a complacency--that tells Americans that the rest of the world will learn to speak like us, so no need to worry about learning to speak like them. In reality, I'm now finding that it would be remarkably helpful if I could speak Spanish or French, but I also know that starting in 8th grade, it's not likely I would ever have been able to attain fluency.

3. There's nothing wrong with wanting Americans to be educated in an area that could only make us more competitive with those in other countries who can communicate better internationally. And aside from the economic advantages of directly communicating, there are basic diplomatic and social positives. His point that Americans should learn languages is NOT wrong.

So in a way, Barack is right: American schools should pay more attention to languages (and in my mind, less to "self-esteem," brushing your teeth, and other nonsense--but then again, that would require parents to fill in on the tooth brushing lessons, and we all know that parents aren't expected to teach anything anymore.)

On the other hand:

1. Just as a purely political move, this was poorly worded b/c to those who are looking for Barack to insult and disparage America, this fits the bill. Right or wrong, it fits with a consistent theme on the right.

2. He definitely poo-poo's the idea of foreigners learning English. I can't stress enough how much I support the speaking of English in the United States, and he sets that issue aside like it'll just happen on its own. "Immigrants will learn English." Uh...when? Where? Have I missed something? Being unable to communicate with a large portion of the population is dangerous, inefficient, frustrating, etc., and he shouldn't so quickly dismiss that issue.

3. He could have made this argument in a way that doesn't sound QUITE as much like "You and your kids are dumb." He really does have a mocking tone here at the end when he says "And all we can say is..." Considering we're talking about immigrants like some divine tongue will come to them and they will know English, he shouldn't talk about Americans like we're all neanderthals who just never bothered to learn enough French.

If our education system weren't a joke with mandatory classes that teach NOTHING*, maybe we could deal with a legitimate educational goal like languages.

* When you're in 2nd grade, "music" class consists of sitting around listening to the same songs you could listen to in the car or on PBS. I agree that art and music are incredibly important subjects, but I'd rather my 1st grader (when I have him someday) spend 40 minutes a day learning Spanish than singing the Wheels on the Bus, which he could do at home. A language is something you need to learn young. Maybe there are also advantages to art and music at a young age, but whatever those advantages are, they're not realized in schools anyway. Why hand students a "flutophone" (seriously) before attempting to give them a tool that would allow them to communicate verbally with a much larger percentage of the world.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

I agree with Jack, Cam (especially the last two sentences), SoCal, and tables.

We should be embarrassed by our lack of foreign language proficiency. I'm embarrassed by the fact that many people I know can't even grasp proper American English, much less another language (or even British English). Multilingualism absolutely should be a cornerstone of education -- especially Spanish, French, and Chinese. If nothing else, it would increase the competitiveness of American businesspeople abroad, help build ties between cultures, and allow us to be better negotiators with our neighbors and trading partners. As SoCal pointed out, there are collateral benefits as well.

Boz, I dunno where you went to school, but I attended pretty good public schools and did not have foreign language instruction available until high school (9th grade). If elementary schools are incorporating foreign language instruction into their curricula, then good for them!

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 8:50:13 GMT -5 Boz said:

....I'm not sure if Obama learned anything from his "bitter guns and Bibles" moment during the primary.

I don't think this wins over a lot of independent voters:


I'm not sure which is worse:
-- the inaccuracy (when I was in school, I couldn't even TAKE a foreign language until junior high; today, it's part of elemetary school curriculae; and there are plenty of people who come to this country who don't bother to learn English)

-- the arrogance of telling Americans they should be embarrassed (or saying he is embarrassed by Americans, take your pick)

-- or, well....just siding with the French.

One thing's for sure, the right is going to have a field day with this one.

Yeah, what's he talking about, anyway? Our educational system is awesome! America Rules! It's unpatriotic to state that any facet of the American experience is not perfect as is!

[Boz]

There is a difference between healthy criticism and mocking laughter and "embarrassment."

(And I again re-state that he is wrong on the facts here, based on what is going on in American schools today)

If you can't see how people will be offended by this -- and they don't have to be xenophobes or "ugly Americans" to be offended -- again, I guess I have no response for that. I suppose it was just another "inartful" moment.

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 11:53:55 GMT -5 Boz said:

If you can't see how people will be offended by this -- and they don't have to be xenophobes or "ugly Americans" to be offended

Yes, yes they do.

[HealyHoya]

As a brief aside, expecting others to speak English because it is "our" language is, in itself, misplaced. Others may speak and/or comprehend English because we Americans do, or because Canadians, Brits, Scots, the Irish, Bahamanians (yes, all 12 of them), Australians, many South Africans and various other peoples as a result of the Brits colonialism do.

English also tends to be the dominant language in IB and one assumes that's not primarily due to US arrogance or laziness.

We could certainly do more to teach second languages and to start at an earlier age but let's be fair about this. I'm fluent in English and Spanish and that means I can communicate with a great deal of the world. So, yes, I'm awesome.

Here's the deal: Obama's point is correct but inartfully communicated. In politics, that's a killer.

[EasyEd]

I certainly think our schools should teach foreign languages, particularly Spanish because of the obvious. But the way Obama states this just reinforces the impression of arrogance/preaching/looking down/ whatever you want to call it. Whether or not it is intended that way, it strikes me as elitist, as do many of the posts here defending him. Obama and most who post here are from the affluent educated class, most of whom have the opportunity to travel abroad and in many, many cases to study abroad. A much smaller number of those in "flyover country" spent a semester studying in Rome or Munich, nor will they ever. His words also seems to say "let's all study Spanish so we can understand those who come to our country and don't learn to speak English". In other words, if I go to the drug store and am unable to communicate with the clerk, it's my fault for not speaking her language.

[TBird41]

Jul 9, 2008 12:04:09 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 9, 2008 11:53:55 GMT -5 Boz said:

If you can't see how people will be offended by this -- and they don't have to be xenophobes or "ugly Americans" to be offended

Yes, yes they do.

Really? I took six years of German and two of Arabic. If I go to France, I'm an embarrassment to Obama because I won't know anything besides Merci Beaucop.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2008 13:03:28 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

A much smaller number of those in "flyover country" spent a semester studying in Rome or Munich, nor will they ever.

So be it, but many of those same people proclaim the United States as the greatest country on earth despite never setting foot outside our borders...and make fun of the French despite having never met a French person. Wouldn't you consider that to be elitist and arrogant? I certainly would.

[vcjack]

If I have to pay 5 euros for a coke, they better speak American

[williambraskyiii]

Jul 9, 2008 13:30:31 GMT -5 @cam said:

Jul 9, 2008 13:03:28 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

A much smaller number of those in "flyover country" spent a semester studying in Rome or Munich, nor will they ever.

So be it, but many of those same people proclaim the United States as the greatest country on earth despite never setting foot outside our borders...and make fun of the French despite having never met a French person. Wouldn't you consider that to be elitist and arrogant? I certainly would.

Notwithstanding their ignorance, they are right and have reached the same conclusion as this world-traveller, along with countless millions of immigrants.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2008 13:41:18 GMT -5 williambraskyiii said:

Jul 9, 2008 13:30:31 GMT -5 @cam said:

So be it, but many of those same people proclaim the United States as the greatest country on earth despite never setting foot outside our borders...and make fun of the French despite having never met a French person. Wouldn't you consider that to be elitist and arrogant? I certainly would.

Notwithstanding their ignorance, they are right and have reached the same conclusion as this world-traveller, along with countless millions of immigrants.

And I would agree as well. I just don't think we should excuse ignorant, arrogant elitism just because it's patriotic ignorant, arrogant elitism.

My well-educated, well-travelled, East Coast-raised elitism deserves the same latitude, if not more

[hifigator]

I'm not sure what to think of this one. The idea that we are "arrogant" and should expect others to accomodate us by speaking english is a bit of a strawman argument. I haven't heard anyone say that. That being said, for whatever reason, english is one of the most universal languages. There is not a lot of Russian being spoken in Portugal, Chile or Panama for example, but english is relatively common. Similarly, Japanese is not heard with much frequency in France, Norway or Brazil for example. Yet english is much more common.

Now as for schooling, I think that teaching alternative languages is a good thing. I went to a private school and we were required to take 2 years of a second language. At the time the choices were French, Spanish and German. I took 1 year of French and doubt I remember anything other than counting to ten. I did take 2 years of spanish and while I am certainly not proficient, I can generally carry on a conversation in spanish. But taking a class or two is nothing compared to actually speaking the language. I learned more spanish in about 6 months of hanging out with a friend from Panama than I did in 2 years of instruction. He was an exchange student here and his english was very rough. He would try to use exclusively english and I would try to speak solely spanish. From talking to others, my experiences are fairly common. As someone pointed out, the difference is that in a large part of America, you can go for miles and hear nothing but english. Still, the day-to-day benefits and needs simply are common. Conversely, in Europe you are never more than an hour or two away from several different languages.

The bottom line is that while I understand the benefit of learning another language, I'm not sure that it's accurate to blindly blame the system for not requiring it. Again, in much of America, there is simply little need to speak another language.