Ye Gods....

[Bando]

Irony n. [ahy-ruh-nee] 1. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected 2. A graduate of Georgetown University calling anyone else an "elitist".

[hifigator]

To finish the thought, if there were a requirement to learn another language, I am not sure that we will have accomplished a thing. First off, just look at all the people who graduate and can't speak proper english to begin with. Now if the point is to "learn" a language enough to get your point across, then that is one thing. But presumably the idea would be to actually learn the language. Secondly, what language should you choose? Here in America I would think it would either be french or spanish, depending on where you live. But is it really that much different to know 2 of the 372 languages out there instead of 1? I certainly see the benefit, but I just don't think that too much can be made of the issue either way. As for Obama's comments, I just think they came out wrong. However, he is beginning to show a trend and pattern of having things come out wrong. I think he needs to think more about that and less about foreign languages.

[vcjack]

Jul 9, 2008 14:10:06 GMT -5 Bando said:

Irony n. [ahy-ruh-nee] 1. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected 2. A graduate of Georgetown University calling anyone else an "elitist".

Doesn't make it less true.


But seriously though, he might have well said "people who blow up fireworks on the 4th of July are tacky and rude, it's ruining my cheese and wine party!"

[hifigator]

Jul 9, 2008 14:10:06 GMT -5 Bando said:

Irony n. [ahy-ruh-nee] 1. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected 2. A graduate of Georgetown University calling anyone else an "elitist".

I'm not sure if this was directed at me. If so, then I admit that you have me at a loss. In any case, my point is that I found my spanish teaching to be beneficial. I have worked in retail since I was a kid and with the University of Florida here, I would routinely get spanish speaking students. Sometimes I would come across a Russian, German or French speaking student, but by and large if they didn't speak english, spanish was by far the most likely. I learned enough to get my point across from my two years, but I didn't actually "learn" the language in the sense of being able to carry on a fluid conversation until I dedicated myself to do so with a friend that I met from Panama. But regardless, that doesn't change my point. In Europe there is a natural need to speak any of 4 or 5 languages in a region. That just simply isn't the case in America. At most 2 will almost always suffice. Is there a benefit to learning more lanugages? Absolutely. But should we view it as some giant National character flaw that most of us don't? I think not.

[Jack]

Who is "requiring" anything? What was the context of this remark? While I am already on record as agreeing with the substance of what he said, I am really curious why this would even be news- it is not a major policy goal of Obama's to "force" anyone to learn any other language as far as I know. On the other hand, I am pretty sure he is interested in listening to the rest of the world and working with them, goals that can be better accomplished when we can understand each other. Sounds pretty elitist to me.

[Deleted]

hifi - simply knowing a 2nd or even 3rd language (when there are hundred/thousands out there) is a drop in the bucket. That said, I believe (and this is just my opinion, so take it however) that if people knew another language (or two or three), they might be more inclinced to travel and explore different cultures. Travel can be intimidating, and if you pile on an inability to speak to the natives, it makes it a non-starter for a lot of people. But if you know German, you might be more inclined to travel to Germany. And then, maybe hop a train to the Netherlands or Poland or Switzerland. If you know Spanish, maybe traveling to Spain or even Central/South America isn't so daunting. Once you get out there and see what other parts of the world have to offer, you become a more knowledgeable, open-minded, well-rounded person. You may come back even more entrenched in your positive feelings about this country, or you may end up more skeptical. Say what you want about that, but I'd put my money on an informed skeptic over a blind patriot any day of the week.

I've traveled to about 30 different countries in my lifetime - mostly in Europe. Every day, I wake up happy that I'm a citizen and resident of the Good Ole' U.S. of A, and I wouldn't want it any other way. But I know (don't think, KNOW) that there are countries out there that do certain things better than we do - and in some cases, a lot better - and I respect that.

There are plenty of Americans who've never left the country who would read that last sentence and tell me that I'm not a true American. That's unfortunate.

Aside to Boz: F You for starting this thread. Now I'm gonna have to work late - you know, so I can actually do my job for a couple of hours today. ;D

[Boz]

Jul 9, 2008 14:35:31 GMT -5 @cam said:

Aside to Boz: F You for starting this thread. Now I'm gonna have to work late - you know, so I can actually do my job for a couple of hours today. ;D

I aim to please. ;D

You certainly have a point. I have traveled to several countries, not as many as you, but I enjoyed France and Italy the most because I am comfortable with those languages. I wouldn't say I'm fluent in either, but I am moderately conversational in French and understand enough Italian to get by without making a total fool of myself (at least I don't think I did, probably wrong on that).

On the other hand, I have never been to Ireland, 'cause who the hell can understand those besotted mushmouths!

In the interest of making peace, I offer this:

1. I will not take back my opinions of Obama, but please feel free to make harsh accusations regarding:

McCain, John; re: Iran and cigarettes.

Smooth move, John, ya' dummy!

2. Or we could just hijack this thread into talking about our favorite places in the world to travel. Joking aside, I think Ireland will be my next destination, probably sometime next year.

[Bando]

I just think throwing around accusations of elitism is stupid. Both candidates are rich Senators, and, like every single other person who has ever run for president, are part of this nation's elite. John McCain is an admiral's son who hasn't had to worry about money since he married into it, and Barack Obama hasn't had to worry about money since he wrote a best-selling memoir. Our presidential candidates are always in the elite, and that's the way we as Americans apparently like it.

[vcjack]

Jul 9, 2008 15:21:28 GMT -5 Bando said:

I just think throwing around accusations of elitism is stupid. Both candidates are rich Senators, and, like every single other person who has ever run for president, are part of this nation's elite. John McCain is an admiral's son who hasn't had to worry about money since he married into it, and Barack Obama hasn't had to worry about money since he wrote a best-selling memoir. Our presidential candidates are always in the elite, and that's the way we as Americans apparently like it.

Of course all major politicians are rich, but its the crafty ones who hide it. For example, Bush and Kerry recieved the same education, got basically the same grades at Yale (C+'s) and are similarly wealthy but Bush is popularly seen as the folksy dumb guy while Kerry was the smart elitist. Elitism is a public persona, not an accurate reflection of wealth/social status

McCain might want gas to go to $10 a gallon to get all the poor people off the road (and I know people who half seriously would like that to happen), but he's savvy enough with the "small town" folk to never let that slip

[hifigator]

Cam, (I hope you are sitting down ...) we are pretty much in agreement. I wasn't flaunting my second language in any way, nor was I discrediting those who are fluent in multiple languages. I was just making the point that I don't see the majority of Americans speaking only english as the overbearing albatross that some suggest. The nature of Europe, with so many countries in such proximity to each other, brings about a different view of language altogether. While I can appreciate those who have learned 3, 4 or more languages, I don't find the lack of such to be a character flaw of significant proportion. If, however, someone moves to that area, then they damn sure better learn the local verbiage -- not just "language" but dialect -- to function normally. Spanish for instance is almost a different language in the basque (northern, bordering France) area than the more traditional version along the Portugese border.

I'm not sure what to make of your suggestion that many of us are essentially living on an island because we don't speak the languages of other countries. Certainly at least a portion of the different cultures from France to Germany for example, are similar to differences in culture in Louisiana and Chicago for example. But once again that gets back to proximity. In parts of Europe you can travel for one hour in different directions and be in more than a half dozen different countries. In America, such travel might move you to a half dozen or so states. I do think that distinction is important. Still, I agree that fluency in assorted languages is certainly beneficial. I'm just not so sure how much it impacts the decisions to visit foreign lands. I think the good old dollar -- or lack thereof -- impacts that decision far more.

I am going to ask that question to a good friend of mine tonight. He is a very smart guy --- UVa grad -- who spent much of the 60's touring Europe playing basketball and guitar. I must admit that I am kind of jealous.

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 15:35:10 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Jul 9, 2008 15:21:28 GMT -5 Bando said:

I just think throwing around accusations of elitism is stupid. Both candidates are rich Senators, and, like every single other person who has ever run for president, are part of this nation's elite. John McCain is an admiral's son who hasn't had to worry about money since he married into it, and Barack Obama hasn't had to worry about money since he wrote a best-selling memoir. Our presidential candidates are always in the elite, and that's the way we as Americans apparently like it.

Of course all major politicians are rich, but its the crafty ones who hide it. For example, Bush and Kerry recieved the same education, got basically the same grades at Yale (C+'s) and are similarly wealthy but Bush is popularly seen as the folksy dumb guy while Kerry was the smart elitist. Elitism is a public persona, not an accurate reflection of wealth/social status

McCain might want gas to go to $10 a gallon to get all the poor people off the road (and I know people who half seriously would like that to happen), but he's savvy enough with the "small town" folk to never let that slip

So let me get this straight. According to you, elitism has nothing to do with status or privilege, and everything to do with who can lie to you the best about their status and privilege.

Ye gods, indeed.

[Bando]

Just to magnify the ridiculousness of all this, I'd like to point out that a lady named Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild has also called Obama an elitist. She's one of the richest people in the world, her husband is a MBE ("Lady" isn't her first name but her title), and her last name is freaking Rothschild!

I'm seriously starting to think that "elitist" is just a euphemism for "uppity" at this point.

[vcjack]

Jul 9, 2008 16:20:14 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 9, 2008 15:35:10 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Of course all major politicians are rich, but its the crafty ones who hide it. For example, Bush and Kerry recieved the same education, got basically the same grades at Yale (C+'s) and are similarly wealthy but Bush is popularly seen as the folksy dumb guy while Kerry was the smart elitist. Elitism is a public persona, not an accurate reflection of wealth/social status

McCain might want gas to go to $10 a gallon to get all the poor people off the road (and I know people who half seriously would like that to happen), but he's savvy enough with the "small town" folk to never let that slip

So let me get this straight. According to you, elitism has nothing to do with status or privilege, and everything to do with who can lie to you the best about their status and privilege.

Ye gods, indeed.

yes, its a perception, not a reality

You proved yourself in your second post when you (probably rightfully) make fun of someone with a pompous title. She has nobility title therefore she seems very elitist. If the richest woman in the world's name was Krystal Lewellen and spoke with a redneck accent, you would wonder what kind of trashy gold-digger she was, but no one would think she's an elitist

[Boz]

I don't think I ever mentioned elitism (arrogant, condescending, mocking, maybe, but not elitism), but we should at least be clear on what that means.

Elitism has nothing at all to do with personal wealth or standing. It is a belief system, or system of control. It is often associated with the wealthy, but it doesn't mean "rich."

Elitism means that you believe in the superiority or a certain group over another. It CAN be based on wealth, but it can also be based on education, intelligence or other factors.

It really doesn't matter if someone's name is Rothschild or Hatfield. Either can be an elitist (or accuse someone else of being so, if they wish).


I'd also like to go to Greece someday soon (even though I only know a little ancient Greek and none of the modern language).

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 16:32:20 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Jul 9, 2008 16:20:14 GMT -5 Bando said:

So let me get this straight. According to you, elitism has nothing to do with status or privilege, and everything to do with who can lie to you the best about their status and privilege.

Ye gods, indeed.

yes, its a perception, not a reality

You proved yourself in your second post when you (probably rightfully) make fun of someone with a pompous title. She has nobility title therefore she seems very elitist. If the richest woman in the world's name was Krystal Lewellen and spoke with a redneck accent, you would wonder what kind of trashy gold-digger she was, but no one would think she's an elitist

So, "uppity" then.

You're not really helping your case when you concede that elitism has nothing to do with reality.

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 16:47:02 GMT -5 williambraskyiii said:

Bando, i think you are an elitist d0uche

Way to raise the level of conversation there, buddy.

The ad hominem attack: the last resort of idiots since time began.

[vcjack]

Jul 9, 2008 16:44:22 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 9, 2008 16:32:20 GMT -5 vcjack said:

yes, its a perception, not a reality

You proved yourself in your second post when you (probably rightfully) make fun of someone with a pompous title. She has nobility title therefore she seems very elitist. If the richest woman in the world's name was Krystal Lewellen and spoke with a redneck accent, you would wonder what kind of trashy gold-digger she was, but no one would think she's an elitist

So, "uppity" then.

You're not really helping your case when you concede that elitism has nothing to do with reality.

I don't have a case. I could care less about what Obama thinks, or McCain for that matter for being an Illinois resident I have no say in this election. My point is he's hurting himself by creating a perception.

[Bando]

Jul 9, 2008 16:50:56 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Jul 9, 2008 16:44:22 GMT -5 Bando said:

So, "uppity" then.

You're not really helping your case when you concede that elitism has nothing to do with reality.

I don't have a case. I could care less about what Obama thinks, or McCain for that matter for being an Illinois resident I have no say in this election. My point is he's hurting himself by creating a perception.

And my point is that we have duty to combat bull, not buy into it.

[vcjack]

Jul 9, 2008 16:58:41 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 9, 2008 16:50:56 GMT -5 vcjack said:

I don't have a case. I could care less about what Obama thinks, or McCain for that matter for being an Illinois resident I have no say in this election. My point is he's hurting himself by creating a perception.

And my point is that we have duty to combat bullEdited, not buy into it.

But bull has been so good to me, I'd be out on the street if I couldn't bull my way through life

[hoyatables]

I really don't see the elitism/arrogance/etc in Obama's comments. I just don't. All I think he was trying to say was that we should do a better job of extending the same courtesy to others when we are guests in another nation just as we expect those countries to act here.

Maybe it is as HH put it -- a valid point, but inartfully put. I just didn't think it was all that inartful. That's probably because I'm too darn elitist for my own good .