HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Oct 29, 2007 7:09:19 GMT -5
RDF, what did moss do to you, kill your dog? all your points about him earlier are based on your dislike for him, not fact. why do you think welker, watson, and stallworth are so open? because of moss. 4th in the league in receptions, first in yards and td's. sounds like more than a decoy to me. both brady and belichick say moss has the best hands and is the most intelligent WR they've ever known. be bitter and jealous, but at least have a clue.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 29, 2007 10:02:35 GMT -5
RDF, what did moss do to you, kill your dog? all your points about him earlier are based on your dislike for him, not fact. why do you think welker, watson, and stallworth are so open? because of moss. 4th in the league in receptions, first in yards and td's. sounds like more than a decoy to me. both brady and belichick say moss has the best hands and is the most intelligent WR they've ever known. be bitter and jealous, but at least have a clue. "most intelligent WR?" C'mon. The guy is a physical freak and runs by everybody and can get any ball thrown within 5 yards of him. But give me a break. You also probably believe Belichick and Brady when they say they're not running up the score on teams.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Oct 29, 2007 10:14:09 GMT -5
RDF, what did moss do to you, kill your dog? all your points about him earlier are based on your dislike for him, not fact. why do you think welker, watson, and stallworth are so open? because of moss. 4th in the league in receptions, first in yards and td's. sounds like more than a decoy to me. both brady and belichick say moss has the best hands and is the most intelligent WR they've ever known. be bitter and jealous, but at least have a clue. "most intelligent WR?" C'mon. The guy is a physical freak and runs by everybody and can get any ball thrown within 5 yards of him. But give me a break. You also probably believe Belichick and Brady when they say they're not running up the score on teams. brady and belichick are the ones that said it, over and over again. i was just repeating it. take it up with them if you disagree. i'm sure brady and bilichick made it up just to infuriate the randy moss haters on internet forums as far as running up the score, you sound like the redskin defense, crying about it. try stopping them from scoring. joe gibbs didn't care, he knew his team quit. clinton portis said the skins had more talent than the pats. just like taylor, another cane that talks a big game but never plays one.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 29, 2007 10:27:41 GMT -5
Tom Brady also thinks that Charlie Weis is a good coach. So, I'd take any of his assessments with a grain of salt.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 29, 2007 10:38:23 GMT -5
"most intelligent WR?" C'mon. The guy is a physical freak and runs by everybody and can get any ball thrown within 5 yards of him. But give me a break. You also probably believe Belichick and Brady when they say they're not running up the score on teams. brady and belichick are the ones that said it, over and over again. i was just repeating it. take it up with them if you disagree. i'm sure brady and bilichick made it up just to infuriate the randy moss haters on internet forums as far as running up the score, you sound like the redskin defense, crying about it. try stopping them from scoring. joe gibbs didn't care, he knew his team quit. clinton portis said the skins had more talent than the pats. just like taylor, another cane that talks a big game but never plays one. I'm just waiting for the reaction of all the Pats fans when Brady blows out his knee going for a QB sneak on a 4th and 1 in the 4th quarter of a blowout. Oh, and Belichick would never do anything just to stick it to someone else. He would never run up the score. He would never act like a complete ass in everyone of his press conferences. He would never list 37 people on his injury report. No, never.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Oct 29, 2007 12:22:27 GMT -5
RDF, what did moss do to you, kill your dog? I would not be in the least suprised if Moss killed RDF's Dog/Cat/Family member or stole his bike/car/girlfriend/house/boat
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 29, 2007 12:32:21 GMT -5
RDF, what did moss do to you, kill your dog? all your points about him earlier are based on your dislike for him, not fact. why do you think welker, watson, and stallworth are so open? because of moss. 4th in the league in receptions, first in yards and td's. sounds like more than a decoy to me. both brady and belichick say moss has the best hands and is the most intelligent WR they've ever known. be bitter and jealous, but at least have a clue. Belichick and Brady are smart--they know to stroke the ego driven diva and make him happy--keep things calm. Moss knows the game--he's just an overrated WR. He's a great deep threat and I give him credit for being the best WR to ever play when it comes to adjusting to the football on a deep route/in the air--nobody has done it better. I admittedly hate him or anyone from Minnesota. I have never said I'm not biased towards the dolts who play up here. However, I don't let that interfere with my honest assessment of someone on the field. Randy Moss is a tremendous weapon--he's NOT the best WR ever--not even close. When you run 1 route well and are a non factor on anything else--and your QB looks at you as the 4th option on big plays--the plays that actually decide games--3rd down and 8--ask ANY Patriot fan who they are looking for--it's Welker, Faulk, Watson--then Moss. That is being honest--not a Viking homer. HoyaFanNY--you mistake my joking/biased shots and my actual points I make--which are hard to debate. If you look at the Patriots--Moss is a weapon--he's the knockout punch guy--but he's not their most valued WR. Welker is--and Brady said that yesterday as well--he's the key to the team and biggest addition. Other coaches know that as well. Randy Moss over the middle is a non factor--it's a catch and fall down--if he catches it. He spends most of the time in traffic looking at who is about to hit him then catching the ball--and of his drops take a look at where on the field they happen--anytime there is a threat of physical contact. He's not a run after the catch type of player--he's a HOF version of Alvin Harper--a deep threat that is best EVER at adjusting to the ball in air and body control. Outside of that--he takes plays off, doesn't block for crap, doesn't fight to get open, and is marginal. The greatest WR of all time doesn't get traded 2 times in a career. As for Bias-I'm not the one who proclaims Adrian Peterson the greatest thing ever--and drags up a thread to prove a point after one game. I could have just as easliy brought up the thread where I said he coughs the ball up, can't catch out of the backfield, and is a terrible blocker--which all were on display in his game against Dallas. He's a great athlete, but he fumbled, dropped a ball he should've caught, and missed a block to give up a sack in a game that Vikings could've won against Dallas. He did nothing yesterday as well. It's NOT his fault--my point is that he's not the impact everyone thinks because Vikings have no passing game--which I said at the Draft--am I wrong? By time they upgrade passing game--their OL is going to be old, and Peterson will be 2-3 years down road at RB--which is a position you don't need a "star" to win. I'd take a duo over one great back any day--less money you have to pay and more roster flexibility. Emmitt Smith has the most yards ever--and he wasn't fast, he wasn't most athletic, but he could block, catch out of the backfield, and protected the football. You don't need 6'2 220 lb 4.3 guys to win in the NFL--you need great PLAYERS--as in guys who can do more then 1 thing. However, you'll never see me drag up a thread to make a point--I am more then confident in my assessment of someone and don't need to belittle them--unless it's Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady. As for Moss--I'll let a Pats fan address this. Remember coaches and players are smart--they know who needs to be given positive reinforcement and who needs to have ego stroked. I don't doubt Moss' intelligence--I doubt his toughness and his effort when not getting the football. Moss is a great front runner--and Pats haven't been in a position where they have been challenged too much. When they have--I've seen where Brady goes in the 3rd and longs--and it's not Moss unless it's a deep ball. These guys aren't open because of him either--they are open because of the collective group being great--which is why the Patriots win--they are more intelligent when it comes to putting together a team and their focus is on winning.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Oct 29, 2007 13:17:43 GMT -5
i stopped at HOF version of alvin harper......
what you can't seem to understand is that on 3rd and 8, teams aren't allowing moss to beat them. teams rotate coverage toward moss. that, in turn, allows welker, watson, faulk, and stallworth to run the underneath routes wide open. it's really simple football if you think about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 13:50:36 GMT -5
Moss is a edited. He quit on the Vikings, he quit on the Raiders. Now that he's on a good team, he's actually trying. And everyone's so impressed. Edited.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 29, 2007 14:31:04 GMT -5
...he doesn't run any route over the middle, never tries to make a play after catching a ball in traffic--just goes down like a punk, and pushes off when he doesn't have to--see today's game where he pushes a nobody reserve CB in back--when all he had to do was go up and get it. Moss is a frontrunner--and anytime Brady needs to convert a big play--he's going to Welker or Faulk and then Watson (when healthy) and then Stallworth, and then Moss. Moss is strictly there to stretch the field and for big play deep--anytime the Pats need a big 3rd down conversion--he's nothing more then a decoy because he won't sell out to make the big play, he's a punk. This gave me a big laugh, but then this also reminded me that almost every player in the NFL is like this now, especially at skill positions. I can't remember the last time I saw any player catch a slant from the slot and break a tackle to rack up YAC, or not get popped by a rotating safety immediately upon contact with the ball, and every player in the league busting down the sideline runs out of bounds rather than initiating contact with a defender to pick up an additional three or four yards. So it's not just Moss. Not that I really feel a need to defend him as much as I feel a need to call out every other wussy player in the NFL so worried about not getting injured and missing out on a free-agent payday that they don't give full effort on every play.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 29, 2007 14:32:52 GMT -5
I understand your point, but I would have quit on Minnesota and the Raiders too if I was a wide receiver. Talk about inept quarterbacking and coaching.
As to driving up the score--hell yes they are. But wouldn't it have been even more insulting if the Pats just kneeled it out or kicked a field goal rather than go for it?
Imagine you were playing Madden and your friend just ran out the clock on you when he was up by 50...I don't know about you, but I'd be Editeded. I'd rather he puts the ball in the air and gives me a chance to stop him.
Also, if you talk trash before the game (Portis, Taylor, etc) be prepared to have the hammer dropped on you when you fail to do anything of note during four quarters of football.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 29, 2007 14:37:00 GMT -5
Buff, your thoughts on the injury of Edwards and the return of Losman...for the WIN?!?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 29, 2007 14:37:50 GMT -5
I understand your point, but I would have quit on Minnesota and the Raiders too if I was a wide receiver. Talk about inept quarterbacking and coaching. As to driving up the score--hell yes they are. But wouldn't it have been even more insulting if the Pats just kneeled it out or kicked a field goal rather than go for it? That's an interesting straw man you are arguing against, but care to address why the starters were still in when the Pats were up 38-0? Would it have been that insulting to take them out for the backups when the game was decided? And why is kicking a field goal on fourth down "insulting"? I'm confused by that one.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 29, 2007 14:57:54 GMT -5
I understand your point, but I would have quit on Minnesota and the Raiders too if I was a wide receiver. Talk about inept quarterbacking and coaching. As to driving up the score--hell yes they are. But wouldn't it have been even more insulting if the Pats just kneeled it out or kicked a field goal rather than go for it? That's an interesting straw man you are arguing against, but care to address why the starters were still in when the Pats were up 38-0? Would it have been that insulting to take them out for the backups when the game was decided? And why is kicking a field goal on fourth down "insulting"? I'm confused by that one. My point is two-fold: 1) I agree that the Pats are beyond bad-sportsmanship at this point. They are playing to destroy teams. They are playing this way because every week somebody always claims their titles are tarnished. They are playing this way because a former coach crossed the "blue line" and tried to sell out his mentor. They are taking it upon themselves to put this season beyond doubt; they are the greatest team. I have already stated numerous times to friends and others that I accepted the Pats transformation from "hero" to "heel" with glee...so has the team. They don't want to be liked. They don't need to be liked. They feast on the naysayers. At this point, they should just don all black uniforms and rename the team "al qaeda." Yes, they are obviously going for the records. Why wouldn't they? What else do they have to do to prove they are one of the greatest teams of all time? They have won three titles and people still slight them (at least in the paranoid minds in that locker room). Why wouldn't they want to put their mark on the record books? 2) My point about kicking field goals is that at least going for it on fourth down gives the other side a chance to stop you, get the ball back and prevent putting points on the board. The situation I was referring to was the fourth down attempt in the fourth quarter. The Pats had the ball, fourth and 1 with 8 minutes to go from the Skins 7 yard line. There are three choices: A) kick a field goal, B) go for it, C) kneel. To kick a field goal is to put up near automatic points. To go for it is to challenge the Skins to stop them. If the Skins can, they have been given a chance to save face and the score is not increased. If they can't stop them, at least they got a chance. To kneel is just insulting. PS I do think it is incredibly stupid to QB sneak with Brady in that situation. That is just hubris. It's one thing to let him sit back in the pocket and throw the ball to the open receivers. That is fairly safe in my opinion. Especially for the wide receivers--did you see the lame duck throws Matt Cassells was throwing the the wideouts? It's like he was trying to get Gaffney decapitated. So, if Brady stays in the pocket, I think its a safe play. You think he's going to get injured doing that late in the game? Really? Show me a game tape where a defense has even come close to really pressuring Brady consistently.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 29, 2007 15:05:33 GMT -5
The New England Patriots will not win the Super Bowl this year.
Gregg Easterbrook's football gods will not allow it (as I'm sure we'll all read about tomorrow). ;D
I'm not sure what it will be that de-rails them, but it will be something.
On a related note, are the Dallas Cowboys really more likeable than the Patriots at this point? How the hell did that happen, and is that proof positive that George W. Bush has brought about the apocalypse?
Nahhh, can't like the Cowboys either.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 29, 2007 15:09:44 GMT -5
The Patriots run the same offense they ran without Moss--and Brady looks for the same people--well same position I should say. Moss is a great addition--and the most overrated player in FB. His absence on the Pats would be least felt--if the Patriots lose Welker--this offense would suffer more. He gets those tough yards--and does run after the catch--over the middle as well. Your loyalty to Moss is not allowing you to see the reality of the situation.
FewFac--I understand/agree with most of what you say--but there are some guys who will catch it over the middle and try to make a play. Randy Moss isn't among them.
Randy Moss has HOF/Greatest of All Time talent--he has not and won't apply it to all aspects of his game. He's far more talented then Terrell Owens--but Owens is more of a complete player--he'll block, he'll go over the middle and he'll run after the catch. Moss--it's deep ball, fade in endzone, or nothing. No blocking, no route running, nothing. It's on him--nobody else--he's got the ability to do it--when he applies himself, someone wake me up. Until then-HOF version of Alvin Harper in my mind--great guy to send deep, great hands, lack of effort, quitter, frontrunner, and wasted a lot of great years being a brat.
As for the "running up score" talk--I don't have a problem with how the Patriots played--just think it is silly to tempt fate with your ones out there. Let Cassell throw the ball around. If you are being honest--the minute Pats scored 17 pts--you could consider any point being running it up against Skins with their offense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 15:34:34 GMT -5
I understand your point, but I would have quit on Minnesota and the Raiders too if I was a wide receiver. Talk about inept quarterbacking and coaching. He had a couple million reasons ($$$) not to quit. If I don't like my boss or co-workers, should I just be allowed to show up, sit in my office and NOT work all day, and still collect a paycheck? Please remove all time spent on HoyaTalk from the equation before you answer ;D
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 29, 2007 15:54:36 GMT -5
The Patriots run the same offense they ran without Moss--and Brady looks for the same people--well same position I should say. Moss is a great addition--and the most overrated player in FB. His absence on the Pats would be least felt--if the Patriots lose Welker--this offense would suffer more. He gets those tough yards--and does run after the catch--over the middle as well. Your loyalty to Moss is not allowing you to see the reality of the situation. FewFac--I understand/agree with most of what you say--but there are some guys who will catch it over the middle and try to make a play. Randy Moss isn't among them. Randy Moss has HOF/Greatest of All Time talent--he has not and won't apply it to all aspects of his game. He's far more talented then Terrell Owens--but Owens is more of a complete player--he'll block, he'll go over the middle and he'll run after the catch. Moss--it's deep ball, fade in endzone, or nothing. No blocking, no route running, nothing. It's on him--nobody else--he's got the ability to do it--when he applies himself, someone wake me up. Until then-HOF version of Alvin Harper in my mind--great guy to send deep, great hands, lack of effort, quitter, frontrunner, and wasted a lot of great years being a brat. As for the "running up score" talk--I don't have a problem with how the Patriots played--just think it is silly to tempt fate with your ones out there. Let Cassell throw the ball around. If you are being honest--the minute Pats scored 17 pts--you could consider any point being running it up against Skins with their offense. I think you are letting your emotions get in the way of your intelligence. You don't like Randy Moss. Ok, fair enough, we understand that. And like we have talked many times before, I don't like any of that showboating nonsense that has started defining the marquee wide receiver position, whether it is Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Joe Horn or Randy Moss. But he is a hell of a player. There can be no arguing that. To call him the most overrated player is quite a stretch. Many people said the same thing of Franco Harris. He had a great offensive line, and hall of famers surronding him. He would get 3 or 4 easy yards because the rest of the team was so good and then run out of bounds to avoid contact. Granted, I didn't like the guy and I too thought that he had life pretty easy being in the situation he was in, but to stretch it so much as to call him the most overrated player would have been downright silly, even though I didn't like him, his team or his style. I see a little bit of that in your Moss comments. For the record, I don't like Moss. Anyone who has enough baggage that FSU has to pass on them/dismiss them is a true mess for some reason. Ironically, if I remember, most of his run-ins with the law regarded misdemeanor stuff like marijuana. You know how I feel on that issue. Still, I would like to see those who are blessed with so much ... talent, success, money etc... become better role models. That being said, he is a dynamic outstanding wide receiver. He has great size, speed, leaping ability, body control and hands. I disagree on his route running ability. He has good moves made great because of his speed. As for his over the middle stuff, I haven't seen much of what you suggest this season. From what I see, he is putting out a lot more effort now that he has a great team around him. Perhaps that is a character flaw, in that maybe such efforts before could have improved his other teams and other players around him, but in any case, I don't think you could pin the lack of effort label on him now. As for his effect on the Patriots, I just think you are discounting him too much. He is the deep threat that the Patriots sorely needed. Ironically, when the Patriots added a star player last time, albeit one with attitude and locker room issues in Corey Dillon, they won a Super Bowl. I think the same thing is unfolding under our eyes. I think thusfar, Moss has made the Pats a good touchdown per game better. There are very, very few players who could have such an impact. LT and Peyton Manning would probably be on that short list, but now many others. In that sense, it is hard to consider someone on that list as being overrated -- especially "most overrated" in the game.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Oct 29, 2007 23:06:10 GMT -5
For a team with nothing that even resembles a running game, the Packers aren't doing half bad. Favre is making all those people who said he should retire look pretty silly.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 29, 2007 23:49:32 GMT -5
Funny - nobody talked about "running up the score" when the Rams were the "Greatest Show on Turf". Guess it depends upon what your agenda is. I think a part (but not all) of it is the Patriots (coach and team included) are PO'd at all the people who said "hmm, look at those small margins of victory in the SBs they won - that could have been cheating." The reaction is: "it wasn't, but if that's what you think, fine, we'll just kick the crap out of you then." For his part, Belichick maintained today that he was always taught to "coach until the end of the game." When asked about worry about injuries, he said (paraphrasing) that players are more likely to get injured when they took their foot off the gas pedal. RDF: my condolences on HOF Favre pulling another rabbit out of the hat in Denver.
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