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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 15:31:01 GMT -5
I am neither a Bills nor Cowboys fan. I was so glad when Emmitt left so that I could sever all ties with Dallas. I haven't been able to stand them since Jerry Jones took over, even though I rooted for them with Aikman, Irvin, Novacek, JJ, etc.... but because of Emmitt. That being said, the receiver from the Bills that I am very familiar with is Josh Reed. He is very capable but has been somewhat of a disappointment. Whether or not that is because of poor quarterback play or not, I would defer to Buff since he certainly knows more about them than any of the rest of us. In any case, Josh Reed should be a star player and he may yet become one, but he pretty much has all of the tools except for a 6'4" frame. He runs good routes, has excellent hands and is not afraid to go over the middle. I fully expected him to be a 90-100 catch a season guy coming out of LSU, but he hasn't had the consistency yet. I know the injury slowed him down a couple of years ago, but from what I have read he has been healthy since. Reed had a great rookie year. Looked like he could become a top-flight #2. Then his next two years he had a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE case of the drops. Two seaons long. His confidence was gone. People were wondering why he was still on the roster starting last season. But last season and so far this season he's shown his great hands, great routes... good #2. Problem is, for a guy that small with average speed, he's not going to become more in the NFL than a great #2/possession-type receiver. But you're right... he's got great tools and is turning into a valuable weapon. Not sure about 90 receptions on any team other than the Colts, though... i thought the bills made a huge mistake trying a 54 yards field goal with 41 seconds left in the half. lindell missed and dallas turned the great field position into a field goal of their own as the half ended. i know there were plenty of crazy things that happened causing the bills to lose, but they handed dallas 3 points at the end of the half. Lindell is usually good from that distance. There was no wind. Not really that bad a call, esp. since they were up 17-7 at the time, and a make there would have forced (after the kickoff) Dallas to kneel it out. 20-7 at the half? I'd have taken it. That's football. Things like that happen all the time. Second-guessing that is kinda weak, especially when a make there and people think he's great for trusting his kicker.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 9, 2007 15:53:47 GMT -5
Maybe I am too much of an SEC homer, but he was absolutely unstoppable in college. I know the NFL is a different situation entirely and there have certainly been many busts who were great college players, but it seemed like every single week he would have a dozen catches for 140 yards and a couple of touchdowns at LSU. And it didn't matter if he was playing against a really good defensive team or not. Man to man, zone, man under cover 2, it didn't matter, but you do bring up a good point. He was a fast receiver in college, not a burner, but certainly fast enough. Now he's more of a posession guy, but damned if he isn't elusive when he needs to be.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 9, 2007 16:05:03 GMT -5
How are you having a Bills discussion without someone who's been a seasons ticket holder since the early 80's and was there last night for yet another game the Bills led for 60 minutes only to lose after the clock struck zero? RDF - no offense, but some of your takes on the Bills are horribly off. First of, Jaws is from Depew, NY. A suburb about 2 minutes from downtown Buffalo. If anything, he was homering it up for his hometown team... not "hating on the Cowboys" because he played for the Eagles. Outstanding receivers?? Please. The Pats have outstanding receivers. Evans is a league-wide star on other teams (as Eric Moulds would have been in his prime), but the Bills have had trouble getting him the ball all season. Reed is turning into a solid, reliable possession receiver, and Parrish has become expert at catching these little screens or swing passes less than 5 yards from the line of scrimmage and making guys miss for gains of 10-15. But outside of Evans, there is NO deep threat. There are NO big receivers (they are all under 6-foot), making it significantly difficult for ANY Bills QB to find someone in the red-zone. To call them "outstanding" is hyperbole worthy of Jaws or Tirico. Jason Peters - I love the guy, his pass protection is making him one of the best tackles in the game... but he can't blow guys off the line of scrimmage when the Bills need a simple yard or two. And that's what a so-called "BEAST" would do. The reason the Bills called that horrible reverse to Parrish on 3rd and short last night was because the left side of the line (the better side... Peters' side) failed on 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 earlier in the game... and a few other times this season. The guy is rapidly becoming one of the top pass-protecting tackles in the game, but has some work to do yet on his run blocking. Hardly a BEAST just yet. I'm not particularly concerned with what you may have seen at Stanford. In two games as a starter, Edwards hasn't made any mental errors. Zero. That pick in the 4th was killer, but were it not for a RIDICULOUSLY athletic play by DeMarcus Ware, the ball isn't tipped, and Newman doesn't pick it off. As for his toughness after getting hit, again.... not concerned with whatever you may have seen at Stanford, because in two starts there's nothing to indicate he isn't as tough as any other quarterback in the league. Go re-watch the game. If you think Edwards was "scared of getting hit" and was thus checking down to short passes to avoid getting hit, you obviously need to watch more than one Bills game. The reason the Bills had such a conservative attack is because the playcalling is horrible. Routes are DESIGNED to be run short or super long. With the exception of several stretches in their win over the Jets the week before (which gave Bills fans hope... before the coaches reverted back to their old ways last night, reaffirming everyone's belief they let the opponent dictate how they play the game) there's no in-between with the Bills playcalling. No intermediate routes, no TE's up seams, no curls behind linebackers... nothing. Either deep, low-percentage bombs or short passes. Gregg Easterbrook said it perfectly in TMQ - its a high school offense: hitch passes and runs up the middle. Watch more than one Bills game and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Which brings me to... The reason the Bills lost - and the reason they lost to the Broncos with no time on the clock and should be 3-2 right now - is because they have embarassingly bad coaching. Most notably Jauron and OC Steve Fairchild. I won't bore people with specifics, but for two years now, players have been robbed of SEVERAL wins by their inept coaches. The long bomb to Evans with time running out against Denver which stopped the clock and was the difference in the game, passing TWICE in the red zone when a run-run-run-FG with about 5 min left would have iced it, the horrible defensive alignment that allowed the Cowboys to set up for the winning field goal... these kind of mistakes have taken the Bills from 3-2 and contending for a wild card (their schedule is significantly easier the last 10 games of the year) and reduced them to a 1-4 team that has to go 8-3 the rest of the way to even HOPE of sniffing the playoffs. The offense didn't do much last night, but they did enough. Romo and that supposedly high-powered, "elite" offense was off the field for long stretches at times. The defense... missing two starters and two backups as well as a couple role players... played out of their minds. Special teams was decent (missed FG and not recovering the on-side kick were killers), but provided seven points. The coaching lost them that game. Period. Any other conclusion is so flat out wrong its ridiculous. Everyone in the city is KILLING the coaching today, and for good reason... they've cost the team two home victories. rubb - only thing worthwhile in our lives outside the Sabres? Quality comment there And it wasn't Phillips that sent Flutie packing... that would be Tom Donohoe (the same Tom Donohoe who BEFORE he joined the Bills said on ESPN that Flutie was head-and-shoulders better than Johnson). EDIT: Phillips played Johnson in that Tennessee game, yes... but Johnson had that game won until the Music City MIRACLE. It was Donohoe who then came in after the following season and sent Flutie packing... a terrible decision which set the franchise back at least three or four years. I suppose the obituary I was penning was a bit premature...glad you are still with us good buddy. I felt for you and your kind.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 9, 2007 16:17:46 GMT -5
Where is this Edwards love coming from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy has the distinction of a loss to UC Davis on his Stanford resume. Talk about revisionist history about him having had a good or even bright Stanford career. It was dismal, at best.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 9, 2007 16:25:36 GMT -5
Buff, you had me kind of curious so I went back to see if Reed was as impressive as I remembered. Yep, he damn sure was. '99 was his first year and played very sparingly, then he exploded for 2 seasons and jumped ship to the NFL. Here were some of his numbers from 2000 and 2001:
Alabama 19 catches 293 yards 2 TDs Auburn 8 162 2 Miss. St. 10 113 1 Ga. Tech 9 96 1 Kentucky 7 67 1 Illinois 14 239 2 UAB 4 53 0 Miss St 10 146 2 Tennessee 7 125 1 Ole Miss 8 173 0 Arkansas 7 183 2 W. Carolina 5 137 1 Auburn 10 186 1
The only real team that truly shut him down was UAB and I would guess he probably played very little in that game. He was the most dominant receiver in the SEC over a 2 year stretch in my memory. There were certainly others who might have been more athletic and there are certainly guys like Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald who were flat out studs in college, but Reed was right up there. I don't really know why they didn't list our games with him, but I am pretty sure that he was double digits in catches and probably close to 300 yards in the two games with us. He was a friggin machine. I remember yelling to triple cover him if you have to and make anyone else beat us. Remember, he put up those numbers with Rohan Davey and Josh Booty as his qb. Don't get me wrong, I hate LSU. But I will give credit where it is due.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 16:42:44 GMT -5
Where is this Edwards love coming from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy has the distinction of a loss to UC Davis on his Stanford resume. Talk about revisionist history about him having had a good or even bright Stanford career. It was dismal, at best. That's just it, there is no "love" for him. He's just much better than Losman or any other QB on the Bills roster... and looking better than just about every QB the Bills have had since Kelly with the exception of Flutie (Todd Collins, Rob Johnson, JP Losman, Kelly Holcomb).
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 9, 2007 21:08:31 GMT -5
Where is this Edwards love coming from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy has the distinction of a loss to UC Davis on his Stanford resume. Talk about revisionist history about him having had a good or even bright Stanford career. It was dismal, at best. That's just it, there is no "love" for him. He's just much better than Losman or any other QB on the Bills roster... and looking better than just about every QB the Bills have had since Kelly with the exception of Flutie (Todd Collins, Rob Johnson, JP Losman, Kelly Holcomb). I wasn't accusing you, it was actually things I have heard from the talking heads on the tube. I think all the hoopla about Stanford beating USC went to their heads.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Oct 10, 2007 13:54:50 GMT -5
the field goal attempt before the half was a horrible call. it handed dallas 3 points and momentum going into halftime. you make it sound like it was a 23 yard chip shot instead of a 54 yarder.
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Post by HeartAttackHoya on Oct 10, 2007 17:02:21 GMT -5
edwards has highly recruited from high school and which led people to constantly believe that Stanford's inadequacies were due to his supporting cast and not him. That being said, he is sharp and definetely has an NFL arm/body
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 11, 2007 11:52:26 GMT -5
edwards has highly recruited from high school and which led people to constantly believe that Stanford's inadequacies were due to his supporting cast and not him. That being said, he is sharp and definetely has an NFL arm/body Yeah, yeah, yeah .... but so does Ryan Leaf. I get so sick and tired of that "NFL Body" idea. For the most part, the greatest quearterbacks haven't been the so-called prototypical build. Joe Montana is the perfect example. Even guys like Tarkenton, Theisman and Bradshaw weren't the ideal build yet they all had more than their share of success. I think too much is made of the stat chart (height/weight etc...) and not enough emphasis is made on the 8 or so inches between the ears.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 11, 2007 12:24:20 GMT -5
Terry Bradshaw was the #1 pick in the NFL Draft I believe--if not-he was at least a 1st Rounder--so don't get the comparison there. I wasn't born when he was selected--but I thought he was picked #1 overall. Steeler fans or older NFL fans please add to this.
One aspect of QB play that is ignored and not given more scrutiny--the poor mechanics/lack of pocket presence from young QB's--both tall and small. How many times do you see someone like Grossman get a snap, make his drop and stay where he hits--be it 5/7 step drop? It's a friggin target for defense and makes a difference depending on type of pass you are making. A split second is difference between completion/interception/incompletion. Watch the poor footwork from QB's--they throw off back foot, have poor balance, turn their upper body as they are releasing, and it's up to coaches to teach them how to move back there--Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the best in business with their footwork in pocket--and Brady's mechanics are flawless. Footwork and release are as good as it gets with Brady. Peyton Manning and Eli Manning went to a QB coach to work on their release and Peyton is about as established as it gets--but he still works with people and it's improved--he's not releasing as high and he's getting more spirals/better zip on ball. Eli's vastly improved as well.
Teams don't self scout enough and they don't work on little mechanical issues with passers. College is the worst--and part of it is from coaches being lazy with shotgun plays. Even in gun--you have to be able to know when to step up in pocket or sidestep and make sure you have proper mechanics in your passing. Watch how many guys get ball--stay where they receive the snap in gun and nobody uses pump fakes and many are able to look at primary receivers due to spread/5 WR sets. Get to NFL and you have to read coverages and it's a mess. Combine that with poor mechanics and you see inconsistency.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 11, 2007 12:40:00 GMT -5
Did I just make a Todd Marinovich sighting? Oh man.
One note: is it any wonder that football organizations are less than proficient at identifying players' intellectual abilities what with all the rocket scientists put in charge of running them, much less owning them? That is one reason I find it pretty easy to root for an organization like the Patriots, and another reason I find it pretty easy to root against organizations like the Yankees, Cowboys, Mark Cuban, etc. It kind of takes one to know one when it it comes to scouting players' ability to read and react, and I suspect that traditional NFL measures like the Wonderlich and the combines fail to capture these qualities. Plus, the game is played in such a way that players who are competent at executing their tasks can thrive and excel even if they may be less than capable of actually making adjustments that would improve the lot of the entire team, and their contributions while significant, can even detract from the entire team though they are significant enough to earn and retain the trust of decisionmakers far too dense to actually comprehend the value of less statistically-proficient players who play better within the system.
Personally, I enjoy watching rocket scientists like Norv Turner and Mike Martz and Charlie Weis and Joe Pa Bobby Bowden and too many other 'football guys' to name and mention who comprehend something football-related very well but just don't seem to get the bigger picture. It's like watching train wrecks in slow motion.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 12, 2007 14:22:54 GMT -5
RDF, my mention of Bradshaw wasn't intended as a slight in any way. In fact the opposite is true. I was just pointing out that he was a very successful qb without the cannon of an arm. Granted it was a different generation and he was certainly surrounded by stars like Swann, Stallworth, Franco Harris and Rocky Bleir not to mention that loaded defense of the Steel Curtain.
As for the modern day scouts however, I just think they pay too much attention to height and arm strength and not quite enough to the intangibles. Grossman is a great example. He has an excellent arm, but is severely lacking in that nebulous matter between the ears.
We all know about the Mannings of the world and they deserve the praise they get. But I think there are plenty of Roethlisbergers out there. Not that long ago a guy named Kurt Warner led his team to a World Championship from relative obscurity. I honestly think there are plenty of guys like that out there, just like there are plenty of Ryan Leafs, Todd Marinovichs and Dan McGwires.
FewFac, as for the Wonderlik tests, I keep going back and forth. On one hand it is certainly better to be intelligent. That goes without saying. But is that particular type of intelligence essential to good quarterback play? On one hand the smarter you are the more likely you will be to understand and anticipate what the opposing defenses are going to do. But on the other hand intelligence alone doesn't give any indication as to willingness and ability to learn and be taught. I think Vince Young is a perfect example. The media killed him for his low scores in the Wonderlik, but the maturity he has shown in one season is amazing. He has been willing to listen and learn even though he isn't the most naturally intelligent quarterback around. Granted that limitless natural ability helps a bit too, but I think you see what I mean.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 12, 2007 15:19:00 GMT -5
Bradshaw was known for his arm--his weakness was between the ears. They don't draft you #1 in the NFL if you can't throw the ball and have the arm.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 13, 2007 12:19:31 GMT -5
Hifi, Bradshaw had a cannon. The Steelers just ran and threw deep.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Oct 14, 2007 22:28:37 GMT -5
Mike Holmgren sure knows how to keep his team in the game
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JimmyHoya
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Post by JimmyHoya on Oct 28, 2007 19:31:06 GMT -5
Good grief, what trash did Fred Smoot say to Tom Brady before the game that made us deserve that whooping?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 28, 2007 19:36:24 GMT -5
Pats are just a machine right now--playing some unreal football and the pressure they put on teams to score to keep up is what lets these games get so far out of hand. It's hard enough to stop their offense--but when you factor in that the pressure to try and score is what lets these games get way out of hand.
Looking forward to next Sunday's game already--and I think Pats win by 2/3 TD's over the Colts.
I love Brady as a QB and Belichick as a coach, but I can't stand Randy Moss--and I hope that Bob Sanders gets a knockout shot on him since Taylor failed today. Moss is the greatest WR I've seen in adjusting to the ball in the air--BUT--he doesn't run any route over the middle, never tries to make a play after catching a ball in traffic--just goes down like a punk, and pushes off when he doesn't have to--see today's game where he pushes a nobody reserve CB in back--when all he had to do was go up and get it. Moss is a frontrunner--and anytime Brady needs to convert a big play--he's going to Welker or Faulk and then Watson (when healthy) and then Stallworth, and then Moss. Moss is strictly there to stretch the field and for big play deep--anytime the Pats need a big 3rd down conversion--he's nothing more then a decoy because he won't sell out to make the big play, he's a punk.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 28, 2007 20:19:11 GMT -5
Is it just me, or is Belicheck's insistence on playing his starters well after the game is over going to come back and bite him? Not the smartest idea to leave your key players open to injury so you can run up the score. I mean, if I were Taylor (meaning, if I were crazy and playing for the Redskins), I would have been selling out trying to hurt Brady when the Pats had their starters in up 38-0 in the fourth quarter. And if Brady had gotten hurt, Belicheck would have no one to blame but himself.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 28, 2007 23:43:57 GMT -5
Is it just me, or is Belicheck's insistence on playing his starters well after the game is over going to come back and bite him? Not the smartest idea to leave your key players open to injury so you can run up the score. I mean, if I were Taylor (meaning, if I were crazy and playing for the Redskins), I would have been selling out trying to hurt Brady when the Pats had their starters in up 38-0 in the fourth quarter. And if Brady had gotten hurt, Belicheck would have no one to blame but himself. What is more likely to happen is that an opposing player won't have to hurt someone--a player will blow his achilles out or blow a knee out and it'll be brought up. Let's face it--no matter how great you are, how many accomplishments you have, the minute you tempt fate in sports, and start thinking you are above all--a major crash will come down. Could be next weekend, could be end of year, or it could be in the 1st Quarter of the Super Bowl and say Tom Brady tears his achilles and is out after 1/2 reps. Belichick gets beaten by 6/7 TD's and the "Genius" is now the grade "A" jerkoff. That doesn't mean I think less of him--and I have no problem with letting players play it out in any style-but do so with Cassell not Brady, when up 38 in 4th with 8 minutes left. No reason to prove a point at that moment and all you do is tempt fate. He's done it all year and is out to prove some point--well those who prove a point--often end up learning a lesson and NOBODY will forget it--ever.
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