HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jan 16, 2007 10:34:07 GMT -5
Players decide games but it's funny how everywhere Belichick goes, his players seem to win more games then other people.  Six Super Bowl Appearances, 5 Rings, and 8 Conference Championship Appearances--he had 1 with Jets as DC and now another with Pats. I know many will claim Parcells was "leading" some of those teams, but seeing Parcells coach in Dallas and Belichick without Parcells, there is no doubt in my mind who was responsible for the winning when Belichick was a DC for Parcells. Except Cleveland. And his sub-.500 record in NE before Bledsoe went down and The Chosen One took over. The guy is a great coach, but his career resume isn't spotless. Belicheck is a good coach, but when it comes down to it players win and lose games. Brady is ridiculous, and the primary reason they have three rings in the past five or so years. I give Belicheck more credit for wins via his personnel decisions (along with Scott Pioli) than his coaching ones... THAT'S where he's proven his worth, in my opinion. As a talent evaluator, he appears to be second to very few (if any). Brady and Vinatieri...if two kicks go wide right, left, just short suddenly this genius talk never happens. Belichick's "genius" is in his personnel decisions. He got perhaps the greatesdt steal in the history of the NFL Draft in Brady and a stone-cold HOF kicker in Vinatieri. Ol' Adam doesn't nail 2-3 kicks over the past few years and where's that coaching genius? |
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jan 16, 2007 12:12:09 GMT -5
Good point to a degree ... obviously it is proper execution on the field by the players in question at key moments which result in the coach "making the right decisions." And certainly Adam V. is an all-time great ... one of the reasons I am unhappy that he went to Indy. Still, that plays into the decisions to a degree. If you have confidence in your kicker then you play it a bit differently. You might "count" on him making the last second kick and put all the pressure on him, rather than trying to go for 6. In either case your decision could certainly backfire. Still, to "diss" Bill Belichik because Vinatieri is so good is a might flawed in my mind ... sort of like blaming Manning when Vanderjact missed ... but of course that one was funny.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jan 16, 2007 13:32:14 GMT -5
No one's "dissing" Belichick because Vinatieri is good; rather, I can't stand when Pats fans (or fans of other teams, for that matter) can't draw the line. He's a good coach, fine. But genius, best coach ever, etc. is just silly.
Draw a line -- admit that SD's poor play was the most significant reason, of several reasons, that the Pats won. Stop arguing the point. Get ready for the Colts.
Draw a line -- don't start saying that Belichick is a genius, deserves all the credit for what the Pats have accomplished AND, based on what's happened in Dallas the last few years, Belichick should ALSO get the credit for the Giants success under Parcells while Belichick was D coordinator. That's ridiculous.
Draw a line -- admit the guy is a EDITED. No one outside Boston likes him. Ditka hates him. Mangini hates him. Tomlinson (a "genius" running back), perhaps the classiest talented player in the league, slams him. That list goes on...and on...and on...
I don't harbor any hatred for Belichick or the Pats but let's keep things rational...
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 16, 2007 14:19:49 GMT -5
I must have seen the same statistic hifi saw during the game on Sunday, no penalties in the first half for either team (or maybe it was the NFC game, but I didn't think so). |
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 16, 2007 15:00:51 GMT -5
Throw out the stats & records, Colts Pats for the big show. GO COLTS!!!
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 17, 2007 7:10:45 GMT -5
i want the pats to win, but something tells me this is the colts year. a colts -saints super bowl would be very entertaining.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 17, 2007 10:25:15 GMT -5
also, rumor is tom brady is dating gisele. he is truly a GOD.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 17, 2007 10:48:19 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jan 17, 2007 15:06:55 GMT -5
I must have seen the same statistic hifi saw during the game on Sunday, no penalties in the first half for either team (or maybe it was the NFC game, but I didn't think so). I didn't "see" the stat, but I heard the announcers make that point. I remember because they had said almost the exact same thing in the first game as well. That is why it stuck out in my mind. In any case, I guess it wasn't halftime yet when they made that statement during the Pats-Chargers game. As far as Belichik is concerned, I really appreciate his style. He pretty much eschews any and all flash. He doesn't desire or even tolerate the prima-donas of the world. |
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Post by williambraskyiii on Jan 17, 2007 18:27:20 GMT -5
i mean, regardless of dissecting this game...don't the Pats flat own the Colts? I mean, does anyone here have even the slightest doubt that belichick will throw something at the Colts and leave manning and dungy with their respective "faces"?
The Manning face will come out when the pats continuously get to him on their pass rush leading him to throw into triple coverage, etc.
The Dungy face will come out when Brady and Belichick team up to dissect the Colts run defense and front 7 with their short/intermediate passing game.
I mean, I am no fan of the Pats, and I would actually like to see the Colts win this one, but I just don't see it. Sometimes, you just have to step back from these games and say "can i realistically see this happening?" and i just cannot.
so it will be Pats-Saints in the SB b/c rex grossman is due for one of his revolting stat line games.
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DonkDonk
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Post by DonkDonk on Jan 17, 2007 23:18:36 GMT -5
so brasky do you think Belichick was withholding his plan during the last two regular season games where the Colts have beaten the Pats in Foxborough? After what Peyton showed in Baltimore against a frenetic D, and how the Pats STOLE that game from the Chargers, i would pick the Colts.
but probably stay away from this game gambling-wise because you are right the Pats have had their number over the last five years...but not in the most recent past. I can just picture the slo-mo's of Peyton towards the end of the game with the Colts up and Dierdorf saying something dumb like "that gorilla that just left the RCA Dome is now off of Peyton Manning's back." did he already say that or something? and then two weeks of buildup until we're absolutely sick of the stories of Peyton's Louisiana connection (where he grew up) and Katrina.
I agree with the Saints. I'm just glad that the NFC East was proven to be overrated. at one point in the season, around when the Giants were 6-2, some pundits were claiming it was the best division in football. AFC north the toughest with the AFC west not too far behind.
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Post by BeantownHoya on Jan 18, 2007 13:04:50 GMT -5
No one's "dissing" Belichick because Vinatieri is good; rather, I can't stand when Pats fans (or fans of other teams, for that matter) can't draw the line. He's a good coach, fine. But genius, best coach ever, etc. is just silly. Draw a line -- admit that SD's poor play was the most significant reason, of several reasons, that the Pats won. Stop arguing the point. Get ready for the Colts. Draw a line -- don't start saying that Belichick is a genius, deserves all the credit for what the Pats have accomplished AND, based on what's happened in Dallas the last few years, Belichick should ALSO get the credit for the Giants success under Parcells while Belichick was D coordinator. That's ridiculous. Draw a line -- admit the guy is a EDITED. No one outside Boston likes him. Ditka hates him. Mangini hates him. Tomlinson (a "genius" running back), perhaps the classiest talented player in the league, slams him. That list goes on...and on...and on... I don't harbor any hatred for Belichick or the Pats but let's keep things rational... Healy I am not going to argue with you in regards to whether Belichick shoud be placed among the great NFL coaches we will never see eye to eye about that, but.... Who gives a sh*t if the guy is well liked? No one outside of Boston like him, news alert some people even within Boston (Ron Borges, etc) don't like him. What's your point? Last time I looked you didn't have to be everyone's best friend and pal to be considered a good/great coach. I am sure he tosses and turns all night knowing Dikta and Mangini don't like him. I can name dozens of great coaches or players that are not well liked by their peers. I guess i am missing your point. Also LT is one of the greatest RB's I have ever seen but if he can see through that stupid visor of his why doesn't he take a look in the mirror. His teammates are a classless bunch. Merriman dances every time he makes a play. In fact on Sunday he did his steriod popping "Lights Out" dance after one of his teammates made the play and not him. That's classy. Did he find it classy watching Florence head-but Graham like an idiot? According to LT if Belichick is responsible for the players dancing after (yes after) a game then it must be Marty S. classy coaching that is responsible for his players commiting stupid penalties during a game. I guarantee if his own teammates were dancing after the game for some reason he would have no problem with it. |
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jan 18, 2007 14:12:46 GMT -5
Yeah, Beantown, I wouldn't disagree with you...the point isn't that Belichick is the only guy with issues, or even that he cares, but rather it gets a bit tiring to hear so many (not all...) Boston fans fault, without fail, the other guy in the conflicts and never Belichick. Maybe I've got selective hearing or I'm listening to the wrong cross-section of Pats fans.
As far as LT and the incident at mid-field after the Chargers game (and, yes, you're right, it was after the game), again it isn't that the Pats are the only team that does that (at this point, who, if anyone, doesn't do that would be the story) but rather it just never seems to be what's discussed about the Pats.
It seems that media and fans are quick to cite facts that fit pre-conceived notions (Belichick is everything good and always good; Pats, Brady, Vinatieri pre-defection, etc. are THE classy organization in the NFL).
I don't think that the Pats should be singled out for undo criticism but it seems to me that they are singled out for undo praise, from time to time. Honestly, it's really not something about which I spend a great deal of time thinking.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jan 19, 2007 14:30:30 GMT -5
I see both of your points on this one and it is true that the Patriots almost get a free pass. In fairness, it would be easy to argue that it isn't really a "free" pass but rather that they have earned it with their play over the past few years. I think we all like to see a team succeed without the flambouyancy of a TO, Joe Hore, Chad Johnson etc... And I think Tom Brady flew under the radar for several years. I don't think it is as much a matter of him not getting the credit due him but rather that people didn't know how good he really was in the beginning. Everyone "knew" how great Peyton was. Everyone "knew" about the inevitable stardom awaiting Eli etc... I think people just thought of Brady as more of an efficient workman type of QB. And maybe he is/was. The fact that it took a few seasons for people to realize that Brady is pretty damn good only reflects on our ability to recognize true talent, not that it wasn't there to begin with.
All of that being said, if I am going to "knock" Belichik for something I would probably point to how some players are treated. Obviously there are two sides to everything, and without any inside information, all I can go on is what I read. The Pats have this "team" type of attitude, with players willing to stay with the Pats rather than seeking the high dollars of free agency. This isn't true of all players, but certainly some. We see that and think how well the team is being run and how quality the individuals are. But I have read some who think the Pats take advantage of the players in some cases. One player in particular was Deon Branch. One story was that they talked him into staying and playing for a comparitive pittance with the promise of renegotiating after the season. Then after the season they showed him the door. I don't know if there is more to the story, but if that is how it worked out you would certainly feel for Branch and place that "blame" on Belichik or the Pats in general, whoever made those decisions.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 20, 2007 11:28:40 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 21, 2007 22:23:30 GMT -5
Pats choke away biggest conference championship lead ever. Key penalties down the stretch doom them. Must be the coaching.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 21, 2007 23:16:42 GMT -5
Pats choke away biggest conference championship lead ever. Key penalties down the stretch doom them. Must be the coaching. Semi-Touche. I'm pleased to say that none of the Patriots head-butted an opponent right in front of the referee, however. The roughing the passer call was a gift. In another non-similarity, Peyton Manning just thanked Brady, Bruschi, and Kevin Faulk for coming up to wish him luck after the game. Coaching certainly failed them with the 12 men on the field penalty which blew their chance to salt away the game. Nonetheless, the Colts made more plays and deserved to win the game. Dungy and Manning correctly saw that the Patriots moved Banta-Cain to the outside and played Alexander (Alexander??) in the middle. When you look at the game again you'll see Alexander trailing almost every big pass play in the second half. The Patriots' lack of depth in the defensive backfield showed big time in the second half. The game was strikingly similar to the one a couple years ago when the Patriots had a huge first quarter lead only to stop the Colts on the goal line as time ran out. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2007 23:19:08 GMT -5
Exactly. Like myself and others have said before, players win and lose games. Colts made more plays than the Pats today, and Manning outplayed Brady from the end of the first half on, and earned his trip to XLI. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 21, 2007 23:35:11 GMT -5
And Buff - where exactly were Givens and Branch today? I did not see either of them on the field. They weren't dropping passes that cost their team 14 points and a sure trip to Miami, if that's what you're getting at. Who cares what Caldwell did to get the Pats here, he cost them the chance to move on. Period. If you think that one play was why the Colts won you didn't watch the game very closely. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2007 23:40:06 GMT -5
I watched very closely. No one play won or lost the game for either team. I didn't mean to infer it was ONLY the Caldwell plays that lost them the game, but different outcomes on those plays certainly spell a different outcome for the entire game. Forget "top" or "elite" receivers, DECENT NFL wideouts don't drop big passes in big games.
Also, it wasn't just one play. It was two. Not only did he drop a touchdown pass, he dropped the pass when he was left uncovered twenty or so yards from the end zone and NO DEFENDER FOR 15 YARDS IN ANY DIRECTION. That's 14 points right there. Would that have guaranteed a Patriot win? Not necessarily, by any means. But the Pats gambled that average NFL wideouts would take them to the promised land, and they got what they paid for... average performances from average talent. Again, it wasn't the single determining factor in the outcome of the game, but it certainly was the one that had the most impact on the scoreboard.
But if you think the game would have come down to Brady having to lead a last minute length-of-the-field drive, you're crazy. The Pats win handily if Caldwell doesn't have the dropsies today.
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Six Super Bowl Appearances, 5 Rings, and 8 Conference Championship Appearances--he had 1 with Jets as DC and now another with Pats. I know many will claim Parcells was "leading" some of those teams, but seeing Parcells coach in Dallas and Belichick without Parcells, there is no doubt in my mind who was responsible for the winning when Belichick was a DC for Parcells. 
