DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 15, 2004 10:51:06 GMT -5
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 15, 2004 13:41:16 GMT -5
greedro martinez? that's laughable. why is loyalty not a 2 way street in sports? the sox can fire the doctor who saved their season by suturing schilling's ankle, and tell derek lowe, who was HUGE in bringing their title to Boston, to take a hike because he parties too much (while bringing in David Wells!), and no one bats an eyelash. pedro gets a better offer from another team, and he is supposed to come back to the Sox out of loyalty? get real.
no Yankee fan should begrudge Jon Lieber for taking 3 years from the Phillies at 7 million per when the Yanks were only guaranteeting 2 at 6 per. (mind you the Yankees paid Lieber to sit on the DL for a year after Tommy John surgery). Sox fans begrudging Pedro for leaving is absurd.
By the way, not sure if Renteria is that huge of an upgrade over Cabrera. And he certainly isn't worth 10 million dollars a year, esp given the Sox pitching staff at the moment
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 15, 2004 16:20:04 GMT -5
greedro martinez? that's laughable. why is loyalty not a 2 way street in sports? the sox can fire the doctor who saved their season by suturing schilling's ankle, and tell derek lowe, who was HUGE in bringing their title to Boston, to take a hike because he parties too much (while bringing in David Wells!), and no one bats an eyelash. pedro gets a better offer from another team, and he is supposed to come back to the Sox out of loyalty? get real. no Yankee fan should begrudge Jon Lieber for taking 3 years from the Phillies at 7 million per when the Yanks were only guaranteeting 2 at 6 per. (mind you the Yankees paid Lieber to sit on the DL for a year after Tommy John surgery). Sox fans begrudging Pedro for leaving is absurd. By the way, not sure if Renteria is that huge of an upgrade over Cabrera. And he certainly isn't worth 10 million dollars a year, esp given the Sox pitching staff at the moment Hold on a minute there - I never said Pedro should "come back to the Sox out of loyalty"... I think he'd be an idiot not to get as much as he can get on the free market... as for 'greedro', yeah, it's probably over the top but it applies evenly to all of them in varying degrees. I think this actually works out better for the Sox in the long run. As for the doc, he was more than likely let go because of 2 factors: 1) a mid-season DUI stop where he was weaving all over the road and (by reports) had an open wine bottle (or glass) in the front seat and 2) the fact that he works at St. Elizabeth's and the Sox signed a big $ deal with Beth Israel Deaconess to be the "Offical Hospital of the Boston Red Sox". Lowe pitched himself off the team, his post-season performances notwithstanding. Renteria is probably not that much of an upgrade over OC, but OC was looking for 8-9 mil per and is not as good a hitter.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 16, 2004 0:21:29 GMT -5
The Renteria signing allows the Sox to use H. Rameriaz, their ss prospect for pitching-such as AJ Burnett from the Marlins or Hudson from the A's (have to be a 3 way b/c of Bobby Crosby)
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 16, 2004 0:26:00 GMT -5
Oh and I just heard that Pedro signed on Mo Vaughn's Bday- that's a bad omen if I ever heard one for the Mets. As Gammons' said, "The Mets are built to win the back pages in January".
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 16, 2004 9:02:52 GMT -5
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Dec 16, 2004 11:35:21 GMT -5
hahahahahaha
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 16, 2004 16:41:45 GMT -5
Borat:
To understand why many are upset with Pedro, all you have to do is listen to his comments today:
Pedro on Mike and the Mad Dog: "If they had offered the third year a week ago, I'd be signed with the Red Sox right now." Are you hurt by the way the Red Sox acted? "A little bit, yeah."
from AP: Martinez said the best Red Sox effort to retain him simply came too late in the free agent process.
"Why did they have to wait until the last minute?" he asked. "Omar showed me respect and commitment."
Please....this is what kills me about athletes. If the Sox had offered Pedro a 4 year guarantee worth $53,000,000.50 he'd still be on the team.
It is ALWAYS about the money. Especially when they say it's not.
Cambridge: Excellent find. ;D
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 16, 2004 17:24:42 GMT -5
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 16, 2004 18:42:48 GMT -5
"I like to play on a winning team like Boston, St. Louis or any team that has the opportunity to win," the paper quoted Renteria as saying. His decision came down to the two pennant winners, and he said the Red Sox were "more interested in my playing for them." Coincidentally, the Red Sox offered him four years 40 million, the Cardinals 4 years 36 million. I guess that makes them more interested, And Renteria has been there since 1997. So boo Pedro and cheer Edgar...even though both sold out their longtime homes for a few extra million dollars. Borat: To understand why many are upset with Pedro, all you have to do is listen to his comments today: Pedro on Mike and the Mad Dog: "If they had offered the third year a week ago, I'd be signed with the Red Sox right now." Are you hurt by the way the Red Sox acted? "A little bit, yeah." from AP: Martinez said the best Red Sox effort to retain him simply came too late in the free agent process. "Why did they have to wait until the last minute?" he asked. "Omar showed me respect and commitment." Please....this is what kills me about athletes. If the Sox had offered Pedro a 4 year guarantee worth $53,000,000.50 he'd still be on the team. It is ALWAYS about the money. Especially when they say it's not. Cambridge: Excellent find. ;D
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 16, 2004 22:55:53 GMT -5
So boo Pedro and cheer Edgar...even though both sold out their longtime homes for a few extra million dollars. Nope - they're both guilty of the same offense: it's ALL about the money. When they say anything different, it's just spin. My perspective on both is that Pedro isn't likely to be able to fulfill his entire contract and his leaving solved that problem and allowed the Sox to fix another using the same money they had technically already spent.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 8:31:46 GMT -5
fair enough, they're all greedy. my point is that Sox fans can't get too up in arms about Pedro when a player they just signed committed the very same offense that they accuse Petey of. i don't think you are, at this point, but i know plenty that are still bitter about it. all pedro owed the sox was pitching for them while under contract. i'm still scratching my head at Sox management, btw. there was talk of a dynasty after they won last year, but as of now, the yankees have made ALL of the power moves this offseason. are they waiting for johan santana to become a free agent to sign a pitcher? that's after 2006 theo...coincidentally, RJ's contract will expire that season....happy bidding. Nope - they're both guilty of the same offense: it's ALL about the money. When they say anything different, it's just spin. My perspective on both is that Pedro isn't likely to be able to fulfill his entire contract and his leaving solved that problem and allowed the Sox to fix another using the same money they had technically already spent.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 17, 2004 9:04:24 GMT -5
i'm still scratching my head at Sox management, btw. there was talk of a dynasty after they won last year, but as of now, the yankees have made ALL of the power moves this offseason. are they waiting for johan santana to become a free agent to sign a pitcher? that's after 2006 theo...coincidentally, RJ's contract will expire that season....happy bidding. From what I hear around here, Sox management opened with a reasonable offer that was lower than what Pedro was expected to "require" (in terms of years, not annual $). They were told by his agent that he needed XYZ to sign, they agreed to give him XYZ and were under the impression they had a deal. He then came back the next day and told them the Mets were offering XYZ plus another year and that was now the deal. They understandably said no (and I think the Mets were nuts to guarantee 4 years to him given his recent health history), and Pedro is calling them arrogant in his scorched earth campaign. However, Minaya had to make a big splash and this was about as big as he could make. Schilling, Schilling, Schilling - interview with "I'm not the number 2 ace" Pedroredsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=59315He'll let the words speak for themselveswww.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/12/17/hell_let_the_words_speak_for_themselves/From the quotes in these articles it is clear that Pedro was not going to tolerate being second fiddle to Schilling. It is disappointing that he could not move on with more class than some of the remarks he made yesterday, but not inconsistent with things he's said over the years. There is absolutely no way he ever would have signed a deal before going to free agency - that stuff is complete bull. I fully expect the disrespected Pedro to pitch well enough to win a Cy Young in the NL next year... but the next 3 years after that will be a decline.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 11:04:08 GMT -5
I think there's disrespect flying both ways... I don't like the way a lot of the Sox players are treated once the organization decides they are through with them. When Pedro was with the Sox, all the diva stuff was fine b/c he was the best pitcher in baseball. He leaves, and now people bring it up and think "good riddance" because of it. And the way they have treated Derek Lowe is ridiculous. I read an interview with him at BostonDirtDogs.com...c'mon now. He's a party animal so they don't want him back, but David Wells is an upright citizen. Schilling needs to clam up - he's been there for a year and is a mercenary just like Pedro. I know a ton of Sox fan that love him on the field...but off the field...does this guy ever stop talking? As for Pedro...he leveraged himself into a great deal. He's a smart guy. I, for one, can't wait for the Subway Series this year, which has otherwise been juiceless for the longest time. I'm sad, though, that a huge part of the Sox/Yanks rivalry is gone. It's hard to work up any sort of bile for Bronson Arroyo... From what I hear around here, Sox management opened with a reasonable offer that was lower than what Pedro was expected to "require" (in terms of years, not annual $). They were told by his agent that he needed XYZ to sign, they agreed to give him XYZ and were under the impression they had a deal. He then came back the next day and told them the Mets were offering XYZ plus another year and that was now the deal. They understandably said no (and I think the Mets were nuts to guarantee 4 years to him given his recent health history), and Pedro is calling them arrogant in his scorched earth campaign. However, Minaya had to make a big splash and this was about as big as he could make. Schilling, Schilling, Schilling - interview with "I'm not the number 2 ace" Pedroredsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=59315He'll let the words speak for themselveswww.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/12/17/hell_let_the_words_speak_for_themselves/From the quotes in these articles it is clear that Pedro was not going to tolerate being second fiddle to Schilling. It is disappointing that he could not move on with more class than some of the remarks he made yesterday, but not inconsistent with things he's said over the years. There is absolutely no way he ever would have signed a deal before going to free agency - that stuff is complete bull. I fully expect the disrespected Pedro to pitch well enough to win a Cy Young in the NL next year... but the next 3 years after that will be a decline.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 17, 2004 11:30:14 GMT -5
I think there's disrespect flying both ways... I don't like the way a lot of the Sox players are treated once the organization decides they are through with them. When Pedro was with the Sox, all the diva stuff was fine b/c he was the best pitcher in baseball. He leaves, and now people bring it up and think "good riddance" because of it. And the way they have treated Derek Lowe is ridiculous. I read an interview with him at BostonDirtDogs.com...c'mon now. He's a party animal so they don't want him back, but David Wells is an upright citizen. Schilling needs to clam up - he's been there for a year and is a mercenary just like Pedro. I know a ton of Sox fan that love him on the field...but off the field...does this guy ever stop talking? As for Pedro...he leveraged himself into a great deal. He's a smart guy. I, for one, can't wait for the Subway Series this year, which has otherwise been juiceless for the longest time. I'm sad, though, that a huge part of the Sox/Yanks rivalry is gone. It's hard to work up any sort of bile for Bronson Arroyo... You should know Schilling will never clam up. I'm not sure they've treated Lowe badly - they decided they were going to offer him arbitration and probably go in a different direction. I suspect it's more a decision based on the downward trajectory of his performance on the field over the past few seasons than anything else. The media here has made a lot of his supposed excessive partying, but I haven't heard Sox management say anythign about it. I agree Pedro has been shrewd and has used all the leverage he could to get the most $$. That's why all this "they disrespected me" stuff is a bunch of bull. The diva stuff was harped on all the time by reporters, by the way - that is nothing new. There's plenty of spin to go around from all sides too.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 12:37:34 GMT -5
Red Sox are taking their mulligan...sure powerplays would be nice, but let's face it...the Yankee tragectory of skyrocketing payrolls hasn't exactly paid off...
In fact, one might argue it was the Nomar trade for gold glove defenders, the bargain basement signing of david ortiz and the rise of underpaid Bronson Arroyo that led us to the championship. I have a feeling that the Red Sox management is doing its best to leverage teh positive fan support and euphoria into a longer term strategy that will put the team in a better position to acquire real talent when it should present itself. I'm not saying Pedro isn't a real talent, or Randy isn't -- because obviously they are, however neither is exactly young.
The Red Sox are bidding their time...look out for them with AJ down in Florida...
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 13:22:30 GMT -5
The Yankees strategy of skyrocketing payrolls? Who had the 2nd highest payroll in the league last year? in the AL, the teams with the 3 highest payrolls in the league all made the playoffs - NYY, BOS, ANA. Think that's a coincidence? You're operating on a 130 million dollar budget. Don't talk like you're the Twins. It's the moves they didn't make that won the Sox the series...they wanted Vazquez, settled for Schilling. They wanted to trade Lowe for Loaiza, the Yanks got him for Contreras. Nomar being moved to help the clubhouse atmosphere, but I don't think Doug Mientkewicz was integral to the title run by playing defense one inning a night. Cabrera and Dave Roberts, on the other hand... Red Sox are taking their mulligan...sure powerplays would be nice, but let's face it...the Yankee tragectory of skyrocketing payrolls hasn't exactly paid off... In fact, one might argue it was the Nomar trade for gold glove defenders, the bargain basement signing of david ortiz and the rise of underpaid Bronson Arroyo that led us to the championship. I have a feeling that the Red Sox management is doing its best to leverage teh positive fan support and euphoria into a longer term strategy that will put the team in a better position to acquire real talent when it should present itself. I'm not saying Pedro isn't a real talent, or Randy isn't -- because obviously they are, however neither is exactly young. The Red Sox are bidding their time...look out for them with AJ down in Florida...
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 17, 2004 13:45:23 GMT -5
I'm going to agree w/ Borat on this one. The Sox got lucky-even the Sports Guy agrees-it was the moves that the Sox didn't make combined w/ teh Nomar trade that won the Series for the Sox. And just in reference to the Twins-as a Twins fan, there is NO time I hate more than the offseason. My offseason is spent praying that the Twins resign whichever key player is a free agent and that whichever prospect they think can replace the guys that walk actually can. So if you are a Yankees or Sox fan, you're lucky-your team can actually WIN in the offseason, whereas my team spends it trying to minimize losses. Speaking of which, if the Yanks don't get the Unit, Johan, Radke, Torii and company are definately beating the Yankees this year.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 14:08:09 GMT -5
TBird Radke's back...so far so good for the Twinnies. But they paid a lot...9 million per means Santana is worth 15 per to them...they'll need to trade him if they can't lock him up soon. Twins are the most underrated franchise in the game. Nearly contracted 2 years back, they are every bit as good as the A's as far as making something out of a nothing budget. - Borat I'm going to agree w/ Borat on this one. The Sox got lucky-even the Sports Guy agrees-it was the moves that the Sox didn't make combined w/ teh Nomar trade that won the Series for the Sox. And just in reference to the Twins-as a Twins fan, there is NO time I hate more than the offseason. My offseason is spent praying that the Twins resign whichever key player is a free agent and that whichever prospect they think can replace the guys that walk actually can. So if you are a Yankees or Sox fan, you're lucky-your team can actually WIN in the offseason, whereas my team spends it trying to minimize losses. Speaking of which, if the Yanks don't get the Unit, Johan, Radke, Torii and company are definately beating the Yankees this year.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 14:30:41 GMT -5
I think you missed my point Borat and TBird...I'm not saying that we were different in the PAST, but that this team is turning the corner salary wise for the FUTURE. I think the front office learned a valuable lesson, whether by chance or by design this last season and rather than go gun ho, they are trying to put the team more in line with a longer term strategy. This is not to say they are headed towards the Twins or A's style, but I think the days are numbered that we are number two...Here come the Mets!!! Hahaha. I just think the gap will grow over the next couple years, not dramatically, but with the Sox being more willing to develop players and only strike on the big free agent when the time is right - rather than in a knee-jerk reaction to everything George does, as was our past MO.
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