Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 10:15:38 GMT -5
Borat,
$16.5 Johnson $14.75 Mussina $10 Pavano $15 Brown $7 Wright $10.5 Rivera $73.75 Total
$12 Schilling $8 Clement $1 Arroyo $8 Wells $4.67 Wakefield $6 Faulke $33.67 Total
Not saying we are the Twins, but how can you even say that those levels are even close to the same for a starting rotation. Even if we had signed Petey...what add $13....$46 million vs. $73.75. Hell, we could have two rotations of our pitchers for the price you're paying. Yep, same levels of spending.
Let's look at infields again:
$10.2 Posada $17.2 Giambi $4.0 Womack $18.9 Jeter $14.48 ARod $64.78 Total
$10* Varitek (or $3.0 Mirabelli) $3.5 Millar or Mientkiewicz (Millar is gone -word on the street) $.07 Bellhorn $7 Renteria $2.1 Mueller $22.67 Total
Hmmm...a difference of $42.11, wait that's more than we pay total!!! We could have three platoons of our infield for the price of yours.
Outfields & DHs:
$13 Sheffield $3 Lofton $7 Matsui $12.58 Williams $35.58 Total
$6.5 Nixon $8.5 Damon $20 Ramirez $5.25 Ortiz $40.25 Total
Oh look, we actually outspent you in one category...and you're right we are the only team that would pay Manny that much. Hell, even we don't want to. We have been shopping him since last summer. He's on the block as we speak and if you don't think Theo would jump at Magglio's $14 mill you are crazy. If Manny is shipped out, we drop below you, no question.
So in total, without the benches or the bullpens...that's $174.11 for you and $96.59 for us, just for the first 15 players...that's a difference of $77.52. You will scoff at that I'm sure as nothing, but what is the entire payroll of the Twins? Hmm $53.5 million. So that difference in cost between the Red Sox and the Yankees first 15 could buy the entire Twins team one and a half times. And you say we're in the same game?
Here are the top payrolls from last year:
$183.3 Yanks $125.2 Sox ($58 difference) $101.9 Angels $95.75 Mets $93.2 Phillies $91.1 Cubs $89.7 Dodgers $88.5 Braves $82 Giants $78.5 Mariners $74.7 Astros $68.6 Rockies $68.2 Sox ($115 million difference)
You are right, we are in second...and probably will be for a while. But the difference between us is $58 million. We're closer to the Angels and Met's levels than we are to yours. Much closer. We're only $20 million from them. In fact, if we moved Manny we'd move much closer to them. Hell, the difference between you guys and the Sox is greater than the difference between the Red Sox payroll and the White Sox (only $57 million)...so how are you even going to say that that's not a HUGE difference? I'll ask you, can you even do math?
Let's get one thing straight, I'm not complaining about the gap between our payrolls because I agree with the more cautious approach we're adopting. I think anyone who says we are in panic mode is ridiculous. We just payed $24 over 3 years for Clement -- a ground ball pitcher with a lot of natural movement....perfect for Fenway. Sure we're taking a gamble on Wells, but he's only gauranteed $2 million a year. The rest is based on starts, and let's be honest if he gets 30 starts next year he was worth $8 million. I'm not upset about that...I might be a little worried that he tends to be a popup pitcher in a park with a short porch, but I could see him being a great road pitcher for us.
Anyways, I'm not going to bitch and moan about our payroll. I think we are acting intelligently and moderately. We seem to be looking to the long term rather than just reacting to the Yankees (as we've done in the past), emotions (as is common after WS) or by short term strategies. We seem to be trying to ship out bad contracts (Manny), unwilling to sign up future bad ones (Lowe) and okay with letting some contracts leave town (Pedro)...sure Theo has shown anger in the past about not getting players he wanted, like Contreras, Vasquez, Pavano...however he always has a few backup plans that's what makes him a great GM. Unlike Cashman who is hindered by Georgies rash decisions, Theo is able to maintain a fair amount of financial discipline while attaining the tools best suited to making us a contender.
Sure, we're going to spend a lot more than most teams, however we are one of the most baseball mad media markets. The season never ends here. We pump money into it, we pay the highest ticket prices, etc. I don't care that you guys have more money, that's fine. I merely have issues when you claim that there is little difference between our payrolls, which is an absurd statement.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 20, 2004 13:34:11 GMT -5
did i ever say the red sox spent the same amount as the yankees? no. i said they'd be in the top 5 in payroll forever, and #2 for the foreseeable future. i never said they paid as much for their team as the yankees did, but that they paid a lot relative to the rest of the league and that, therefore, they did not have the right to complain about anyone's payroll. you have only proven my point with this post that you have little trouble with the Sox spending relative to the rest of the league...it isn't as high as the yankees so you get a free pass, right? 20 million dollars buys you manny ramirez. if the Angels have a 20 million dollar slugger on their team, maybe they put up a fight round 1. maybe they can go acquire a front line starter in the offseason...ie curt schilling for a better prospect than casey fossum [of which the angels have many]. the point is, you look up at the yankees, and only the yankees. a 58 million dollar gap is a lot. so is a 24 million dollar gap. you compare what we pay our rotation to your rotation...i'd be curious as to the Sox compared to the next highest there as well. and you are again talking about the responsible red sox spending habits. here's some knowledge for you: "It should be noted that Pavano went to the Yankees for what one Red Sox official called "the right reasons -- family (his mother and fiancée). We actually offered a little more money, but his mother had bought the Yankee hat and his fiancée really wanted to go to New York. That's fine. That's good. We offered Brad Radke more money and more years, but he preferred living in Minnesota. For us, it's not good. In the big picture, it's very good. I just wish we had them both." "The reason the Mariners had to go to $13 million for five years with Adrian Beltre is that that's where the Red Sox went with Scott Boras. Boston planned to plug the 25-year-old star in at third and go for a cheaper shortstop until Hanley Ramirez is ready, but Beltre preferred the West Coast and wanted $14 million a year over five seasons to go to Boston." AND "Money Poorly Spent If the Mets are being criticized for giving Pedro Martínez $53 million for four years, the critics should know that the Mets weren't the only team in that neighborhood. St. Louis offered him $50 million for four years. And as Martínez was on the verge of accepting the Mets' offer, with the club's four-man contingent in his agent's hotel room at the winter meetings in Anaheim, Calif., Larry Lucchino, the Red Sox' chief executive, called several times and asked the agent, Fernando Cuza, "What do we have to do to get back in?" The Red Sox, who some people thought might not want to re-sign Martínez, had offered $40.5 million for three years and were evidently prepared to go to four years in the $50 million area." and you overpaid for Clement - 9 and 13. 3.80 era. total headcase. you love Theo so you think it's brilliant -a "great backup plan". that was plan C or D. and b/c the pitching market dried up, an erratic guy like Clement commanded 8.5 million per, when guys who had better years last season signed for 3 at 21 [lieber, benson, etc etc]. That wasn't a kneejerk reaction to the Yankees loading up on arms? Then what is? What made them up their offer to outbid Anaheim? Please, tell me, I'm dying to know. in a span of 96 hours you have: 1) maintained mike mussina sucks, especially against the bosox, despite having stellar career numbers against them. 2) criticized Randy Johnson as a clubhouse presence while defending Curt Schilling, who nobody likes. 3) have maintained that the Red Sox are going towards a more fiscally responsible financial model [of course, this is relative to the Yankees] when they offered big money and longterm deals to Carl Pavano, Adrian Beltre, Brad Radke, and Pedro Martinez. That they didn't sign any of these players makes you think that they went with the "responsible" move of signing David Wells for less guaranteed money and giving Matt Clement 8.5 million per. Wells, Clement, and Renteria were all plan Bs. Keep that in mind. If the Sox get what they want this offseason, they probably sign Pedro (3 years, 42 mill), Beltre (5 years, 65 mill), and Pavano (4 years, 40 mill) to deals that total 145 million dollars over 12 years. How many teams can afford to do that in baseball, on a consistent basis, aside from the Red Sox and the Yankees? Answer: ZERO. so keep talking. i hope that the Yanks can void Giambi's contract, so when Bernie and Brown come off the books next offseason, we're 50 million dollars lighter, and Sox fans will be saying "well, you guys still spend 40 million more than us" while the gap between you and #2 is still 20 or 30 million. Borat, $16.5 Johnson $14.75 Mussina $10 Pavano $15 Brown $7 Wright $10.5 Rivera $73.75 Total$12 Schilling $8 Clement $1 Arroyo $8 Wells $4.67 Wakefield $6 Faulke $33.67 TotalNot saying we are the Twins, but how can you even say that those levels are even close to the same for a starting rotation. Even if we had signed Petey...what add $13....$46 million vs. $73.75. Hell, we could have two rotations of our pitchers for the price you're paying. Yep, same levels of spending. Let's look at infields again: $10.2 Posada $17.2 Giambi $4.0 Womack $18.9 Jeter $14.48 ARod $64.78 Total$10* Varitek (or $3.0 Mirabelli) $3.5 Millar or Mientkiewicz (Millar is gone -word on the street) $.07 Bellhorn $7 Renteria $2.1 Mueller $22.67 TotalHmmm...a difference of $42.11, wait that's more than we pay total!!! We could have three platoons of our infield for the price of yours. Outfields & DHs: $13 Sheffield $3 Lofton $7 Matsui $12.58 Williams $35.58 Total$6.5 Nixon $8.5 Damon $20 Ramirez $5.25 Ortiz $40.25 TotalOh look, we actually outspent you in one category...and you're right we are the only team that would pay Manny that much. Hell, even we don't want to. We have been shopping him since last summer. He's on the block as we speak and if you don't think Theo would jump at Magglio's $14 mill you are crazy. If Manny is shipped out, we drop below you, no question. So in total, without the benches or the bullpens...that's $174.11 for you and $96.59 for us, just for the first 15 players...that's a difference of $77.52. You will scoff at that I'm sure as nothing, but what is the entire payroll of the Twins? Hmm $53.5 million. So that difference in cost between the Red Sox and the Yankees first 15 could buy the entire Twins team one and a half times. And you say we're in the same game? Here are the top payrolls from last year: $183.3 Yanks $125.2 Sox ($58 difference) $101.9 Angels $95.75 Mets $93.2 Phillies $91.1 Cubs $89.7 Dodgers $88.5 Braves $82 Giants $78.5 Mariners $74.7 Astros $68.6 Rockies $68.2 Sox ($115 million difference) You are right, we are in second...and probably will be for a while. But the difference between us is $58 million. We're closer to the Angels and Met's levels than we are to yours. Much closer. We're only $20 million from them. In fact, if we moved Manny we'd move much closer to them. Hell, the difference between you guys and the Sox is greater than the difference between the Red Sox payroll and the White Sox (only $57 million)...so how are you even going to say that that's not a HUGE difference? I'll ask you, can you even do math?Let's get one thing straight, I'm not complaining about the gap between our payrolls because I agree with the more cautious approach we're adopting. I think anyone who says we are in panic mode is ridiculous. We just payed $24 over 3 years for Clement -- a ground ball pitcher with a lot of natural movement....perfect for Fenway. Sure we're taking a gamble on Wells, but he's only gauranteed $2 million a year. The rest is based on starts, and let's be honest if he gets 30 starts next year he was worth $8 million. I'm not upset about that...I might be a little worried that he tends to be a popup pitcher in a park with a short porch, but I could see him being a great road pitcher for us. Anyways, I'm not going to bitch and moan about our payroll. I think we are acting intelligently and moderately. We seem to be looking to the long term rather than just reacting to the Yankees (as we've done in the past), emotions (as is common after WS) or by short term strategies. We seem to be trying to ship out bad contracts (Manny), unwilling to sign up future bad ones (Lowe) and okay with letting some contracts leave town (Pedro)...sure Theo has shown anger in the past about not getting players he wanted, like Contreras, Vasquez, Pavano...however he always has a few backup plans that's what makes him a great GM. Unlike Cashman who is hindered by Georgies rash decisions, Theo is able to maintain a fair amount of financial discipline while attaining the tools best suited to making us a contender. Sure, we're going to spend a lot more than most teams, however we are one of the most baseball mad media markets. The season never ends here. We pump money into it, we pay the highest ticket prices, etc. I don't care that you guys have more money, that's fine. I merely have issues when you claim that there is little difference between our payrolls, which is an absurd statement.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 16:32:44 GMT -5
Well, I can't wait for next season, because unlike previous season's where I felt like the vitriol only flowed one way (us to you) it seems us winning has opened the flood gates of Yankee hate and turned this into a real rivalry. Yank friends used to say we weren't worth hating and it wasn't a rivalry if one side never won. That dismissive condescension killed us. Now, we are reveling in the hate. Bring it. Seriously. I love it.
Well, I guess we're no longer just a nuissance...especially based on the amount of insecurity that just oozes from your post. I mean, am I going to say that Mussina sucks. Sure. Is it really true? No. But I still will stand by the fact that I don't fear him. Similar in many respects that for the last couple years a big time Pedro start caused us to worry, or a late inning Bernie Williams at bat (even when he's crippled by arthritis), or a 0 for 5 Jeter batting in the 8th with 2 strikes. All these things strike fear in me. However, my point was Mussina doesn't.
As for the Randy Johnson comment. I was actually speaking more about his appearance. And I didn't actually defend Schilling, as much as I mocked RJ.
Big difference. Sure, but now that you mention it...Curt is a weirdo. Ultra-intense and full of self-interest. However, he is very New England even if he's not from around here. For better or for worse, he is the perfect caricature of Red Sox nation. He is a pompous, semi-delusional ass who loves the lore and mystique of the game. He gets caught up in the feticism of the stats and the history, but then tries to convince himself he can overcome it. He talks trash and has a knack for melodrama. He has a love-hate relationship with the media -- embracing it more than just about any boston sports star in recent history but handling it in an adept way that makes reporters look like Editeds or lapdogs. But the key is he wins and he puts baseball first. He calls into the same stupid sports radio shows as all the other nitwits in the area. He goes on Sonofsamhorn and posts stuff along with the other rednecks. What I'm trying to say is, he fits right in.
NY hates him, the NY newspapers hate him, the NY fans hate him. Totally understandable, but we all know why. Because he whether he meant to or not, by "martyring" himself he vanquished the mighty Yankee aura and made the Nation really believe they could win. Of course you hate him, he changed the relationship between us. Was it total bull? Maybe. Do we care? Nope. He's pretty much untouchable up here because he did exactly what he said he would do.
Did he win the WS by himself? No. Would it have happended without him? Nope. That can be said for many players: Faulke, Cabrera, Ortiz, Roberts to name a few...however none have the mystique -- something that always seemed to elude us in our historic matchups -- quite like Curt did this post-season.
But perhaps that speaks to something deeper. I'm happy where my team is right now and you can get right back on your high horse and ride it out of town...because all I have to say is
YEAR 2000! Clap clap clapclapclap YEAR 2000!
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 16:35:55 GMT -5
Serious question...any estimates of where the Met payroll will end up when all is said and done?
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 20, 2004 16:46:51 GMT -5
Probably depends quite a bit on the Sammy outcome.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 16:46:59 GMT -5
Your wish is my command: Sox $12 Schilling $8 Clement $.5 Arroyo $8 Wells $4.67 Wakefield $6 Faulke $39.17Total
Angels $11 Colon $5.75 Escobar $8.7 Sele $5.45 Washburn $.5 Lackey $7.83 Percival $39.23 Total
Ouch...the Angels pay $600K more
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 16:55:13 GMT -5
Let's look at the third team then:
Sox $12 Schilling $8 Clement $.5 Arroyo $8 Wells $4.67 Wakefield $6 Faulke $39.17Total
Mets $13.25 Martinez $10.77 Glaven $7.5 Benson $5 Traschel $.5 Zambrano $2 Looper $39.02 Total
Hmmm, well we spend $150K more than them...damn
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 16:56:16 GMT -5
Borat, you want me to keep going?
Yes, Manny's contract is ridiculous...that is a product of the old regime...we would love to dump it. I'm sure you would love to keep saying that we are more like you than the other top salaried teams, but the numbers just don't bear that out.
But then again, that doesn't matter, because I couldn't possibly watch baseball... ;D
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 20, 2004 17:11:44 GMT -5
Darn, Cambridge Hoya -- I want your job!
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 20, 2004 17:15:09 GMT -5
Troy Percival is no longer on the Angels. Nor is Aaron Sele. Washburn could follow him out the door. They wanted Clement, badly, but the Sox outbid them by a million dollars. K-Rod is their closer. 250k. Also, Kenny Lofton is no longer on the Yankees. Pick up a newspaper. How did Arroyo go from 1 million to .5? And it's Foulke, not Faulke, president of the Red Sox Nation. Your wish is my command: Sox $12 Schilling $8 Clement $.5 Arroyo $8 Wells $4.67 Wakefield $6 Faulke $39.17TotalAngels $11 Colon $5.75 Escobar $8.7 Sele $5.45 Washburn $.5 Lackey $7.83 Percival $39.23 TotalOuch...the Angels pay $600K more
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 20, 2004 17:23:09 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote before? Beltre was offered 5 years, 65 million. They wanted to give Pedro 4 at 50 but he had already taken the Mets offer. Pavano was offered MORE money than the Yankees offer. The Yankees overpaid for Giambi, Bernie, and Jeter in the "old regime". Recently, what are their bad signings? And by recently, I mean this offseason, since that is your only demarcation b/t the Sox "old" and "new" regimes. And you have spelled Glavine and Foulke wrong in consecutive posts. And you still maintain that Mussina wilts against the Sox despite overwhelming statistical evidence. Where is your litany of Mussina-Sox meltdowns? I'm still waiting. I'm convinced you started liking the Red Sox this year point based on your "classic" Mussina meltdown from game 1 of the ALCS, wondering aloud if i was nervous about a pitcher throwing an f'n perfect game entering the 7th. Borat, you want me to keep going? Yes, Manny's contract is ridiculous...that is a product of the old regime...we would love to dump it. I'm sure you would love to keep saying that we are more like you than the other top salaried teams, but the numbers just don't bear that out. But then again, that doesn't matter, because I couldn't possibly watch baseball... ;D
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 20, 2004 17:54:58 GMT -5
They wanted to give Pedro 4 at 50 but he had already taken the Mets offer. Cuza-generated fiction. ...and yes, I am happy I started this ;D
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 17:56:44 GMT -5
Arroyo is actually at 350K but is being tendered an offer as we speak. I am merely speculating on his deal.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 18:00:20 GMT -5
Who did we overpay for last off season?
Ortiz? Schilling? Bellhorn?
Meuller's new contract?
What they hell are you talking about?
Anyways, sorry that I didn't get the Angels rotation down correctly, I was just going off the ESPN MLB salary page and not really paying attention. Of course it wouldn't be up to date. Hahaha! ;D
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 18:09:34 GMT -5
Ahhh yes, this year. That's when I started liking the Sox. Keep it coming Borat. Hmmm. Yep, I'm a bandwagoner. You got me.
Sorry, if I don't spell check my posts or really mind. But if we've gotten to this level of argument I can see that we aren't going to get anywhere.
But anyways, Paul Byrd replaces Sele. Byrd has a contract of $4 million.
Angels $11 Colon $5.75 Escobar $4 Byrd $5.45 Washburn $.5 Lackey $.5 Rodriguez $27.2 Total
Yep, I'm really eating my words...crow tastes good. Cause $39 and $27 are so eons apart. $12 million to be exact. Not saying that's not one good starting pitcher, but it ain't a $60 million gap.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 18:13:24 GMT -5
Also, seriously Borat, I just want to say that I know I'm being ridiculous. But that's the beauty of it all, isn't it. I just fear you're taking it all a bit too seriously.
Lifelong redsox fan and season ticket holder...
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 20, 2004 18:15:04 GMT -5
being that 12 million dollars = Curt Schilling, i believe i made my point. Keith Faulke rules. i have actual work to do. give me those mussina meltdowns when u have the chance Ahhh yes, this year. That's when I started liking the Sox. Keep it coming Borat. Hmmm. Yep, I'm a bandwagoner. You got me. Sorry, if I don't spell check my posts or really mind. But if we've gotten to this level of argument I can see that we aren't going to get anywhere. But anyways, Paul Byrd replaces Sele. Byrd has a contract of $4 million. Angels $11 Colon $5.75 Escobar $4 Byrd $5.45 Washburn $.5 Lackey $.5 Rodriguez $27.2 Total Yep, I'm really eating my words...crow tastes good. Cause $39 and $27 are so eons apart. $12 million to be exact. Not saying that's not one good starting pitcher, but it ain't a $60 million gap.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 21, 2004 9:21:29 GMT -5
Being that Curt Schilling = World Series Champions, I don't see where the $12M was overpayment.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 21, 2004 9:37:17 GMT -5
THB Schilling was worth every penny the Sox paid him, I never said he wasn't. I didn't say they overpaid to get him, the point was that Cambridge was saying that the 12 million dollar gap between the Red Sox and Angels was not a big deal given the larger gap betwen the Yankees and Red Sox - ol reliable for all Sox fans. My point all along has been that the Sox can't complain about the Yankees spending considering that 30 other teams can complain about theirs. 12 million dollars = Curt Schilling = gap b/t Sox rotation and Angels rotation. I don't know of any team besides the Yanks and Sox that can acquire a pitcher of Curt Schilling's cost without dumping salary elsewhere. This year the Angels were in the bidding for the following FA pitchers: Matt Clement, Paul Byrd they won paul byrd, which is like winning 10 cents in the lottery. This year the Sox were in the bidding for the following FA pitchers: Pedro, Pavano, Clement, Wells they produced the highest bids for Pavano, Clement, and Wells, landing Clement and Wells. they were prepared to go 3 years at 40 million for Pedro, some reports say 4 years 50 million. The yankees are in their own financial stratosphere, call it 1. but the sox are also in their own stratosphere, call it 1A. the dodgers, angels, mets, and mariners could creep into the Sox stratosphere...but they're not there. not yet anyway. the rest of the league watches in awe. Being that Curt Schilling = World Series Champions, I don't see where the $12M was overpayment.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 8, 2005 11:43:17 GMT -5
I think there's disrespect flying both ways... And the way they have treated Derek Lowe is ridiculous. I read an interview with him at BostonDirtDogs.com...c'mon now. He's a party animal so they don't want him back, but David Wells is an upright citizen. Derek Lowe update: Boston Herald: Inside Track - By Gayle Fee and Laura Raposa Wednesday, August 3, 2005 thetrack.bostonherald.com/moreTrack/view.bg?articleid=96376Inside Track - Sources: D. Lo sleazed his way outta Sox - August 5, 2005thetrack.bostonherald.com/moreTrack/view.bg?articleid=96749Mushnick column in NY Post - The Not so Fabulous Sports Babewww.nypost.com/sports/26754.htmApparently there really was something to the partying rumors... and it's pretty likely that translated to on-field erratic performance, though not as marked last year as this year. Oddly, Wells has been a bastion of virtue off the field this year so far. Go figure.
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