Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 15:39:46 GMT -5
They just dropped 10 million per on Edgar Renteria, whose OPS has approached 900 but once in his whole career - 2003 - and usually flirts with 750 as his OPS. 4 years, 40 million. They just signed David Wells to a 2 year deal worth 18 million. They just tried to trade Hanley Ramirez for Hudson to lock him up long term...no dice b/c Oakland already has a shortstop. They tried to sign Pedro and Pavano for 3 and 4 year deals at 10+ million each, respectively. They failed on both fronts. They will now try and overpay Matt Clement or Odalis Perez to come to Fenway b/c they are all that's left on the FA market. They will give 9 or 10 million per to Varitek for 4 or 5 years. The Red Sox are not cutting payroll. They are not going to develop anyone. They are going to spend their way to contention like every other team in the league does. And they'll be in the top 5 in payroll forever, probably firmly entrenched at #2 given the amount of $ they make from NESN. I think you missed my point Borat and TBird...I'm not saying that we were different in the PAST, but that this team is turning the corner salary wise for the FUTURE. I think the front office learned a valuable lesson, whether by chance or by design this last season and rather than go gun ho, they are trying to put the team more in line with a longer term strategy. This is not to say they are headed towards the Twins or A's style, but I think the days are numbered that we are number two...Here come the Mets!!! Hahaha. I just think the gap will grow over the next couple years, not dramatically, but with the Sox being more willing to develop players and only strike on the big free agent when the time is right - rather than in a knee-jerk reaction to everything George does, as was our past MO.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 17, 2004 15:47:11 GMT -5
Cambridge- I agree w/ you that the Sox have it figured out salary wise. I think that they're going to become the model franchise (surpassing the Yankees and their spend, spend, spend philosophy) by combining the logic of money ball, having money and an emphasis on fundamentals (such as Dougie Minekasdpqweriuz, Roberts and Cabrera). I think Epstein has the potential to make the Red Sox like the Twins or Braves (in the playoffs every year) only w/ enough money to keep all the players they really want and get players that they need.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 16:39:03 GMT -5
Oh yeah, we're definitely playing a similar salary game as the Yankees. Yep. Here's our positional players and their 2005 salaries (and estimations for those up in the air): Catchers: Varitek: $10* Posada: $10.2 1B Millar & Mientkiewicz: $7 ($3.5 each) Giambi: $17.2 2B Bellhorn $0.7 Wilson/Cairo: $2.0 3B Mueller: $2.1 ARod: $14.48 SS Renteria: $7 Jeter: $18.9 RF Nixon: $6.5 Sheffield: $13.0 CF Damon: $8.5 Lofton $3.0 LF Ramirez: $20 Matsui: $7.0 DH Ortiz: $5.25 Williams: $12.58 SP Schilling: $12.75 Johnson: $16.5 Clement: $8* Mussina: $14.75 Arroyo $1.0 Vasquez: $11.25 Wells $2.5 Brown: $15 Wakefield $4.67 Wright: $7 Faulke $6 Rivera: $10.5
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 16:43:21 GMT -5
Oh and the number you are quoting over and over for Wells is bogus my friend. The Wells deal is for $8 NOT $18... That's $2.5 a year for two years, plus a $3.0 signing bonus. The rest is incentives based on starts. He earns $200k for each start from #11-20 and $300 for each start #21-up. Here's a link. Scroll down, tough guy. www.all-baseball.com/transactionguy/archives/cat_red_sox.html
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 18:12:28 GMT -5
The estimate for Wells is based on the assumption that he makes 30 starts and stays healthy. It's an easily attainable bonus and I will count it as part of a projection of the salary. If you want to say "well it isn't guaranteed so it doesn't count" then that's fine. You'd better hope he makes all of that money given the state of the staff. And I think he will. I'm sure there are plenty of plate apperance incentives in the contracts of some of the Yanks position players...I'm not going to comb through the language of their deals in an attempt to make it seem like the Yanks are spending less. Furthermore, the SOX had extended offers to Pavano and Pedro averaging 10 million a year and 13 million a year, respectively. Are you saying that they are exhibiting fiscal responsibility with that? That they did not choose the Red Sox does not mean that the Red Sox are not trying to spend money. If they land both those guys and Wells, between Schilling, Pedro, Pavano, and Wells, you'd have 44 million dollars invested in the rotation. Is that as much as the Yankees? No. But it puts them in the same class. I'll go by average salary: Manny = 20 Schilling = 12 Wells = 9 Renteria = 10 Varitek = 10* Clement = 8* Trot = 6.5 Damon = 8 Foulke = 6 Papi = 6 (best contract in baseball) Mueller = 2.2 Millar = 3.5 Timlin = 2.75 Embree = 3.0 Wakefield = 4.5 That's 111.5 million dollars total for 15 guys...25 man roster. You do the math. And that number would be +12 million if the Sox get what they want thus far this offseason. (pavano and pedro - clement). Also, you included Vazquez, Lofton, Enrique, and Cairo in the Yankee equation....if RJ is there Vazquez isn't. You forgot Pavano and Womack so it may even out. I said they'd be in the top 5 for the foreseeable future, and they'd probably be #2 in the league for payroll. I stand by that. They'll spend more than every other team except the Yankees. And their fans will continue to say "sure we spend a lot of money...but at least we don't spend as much as those guys!" Which is obviously rational, and makes the Sox bloated payroll more acceptable. Like I said, the Red Sox are not the Twins. They are one of two teams in the league that could afford to pay Manny Ramirez 20 million a year and still be able to field good players at other positions. The other one plays in the Bronx. Oh yeah, we're definitely playing a similar salary game as the Yankees. Yep. Here's our positional players and their 2005 salaries (and estimations for those up in the air): Catchers: Varitek: $10* Posada: $10.2 1B Millar & Mientkiewicz: $7 ($3.5 each) Giambi: $17.2 2B Bellhorn $0.7 Wilson/Cairo: $2.0 3B Mueller: $2.1 ARod: $14.48 SS Renteria: $7 Jeter: $18.9 RF Nixon: $6.5 Sheffield: $13.0 CF Damon: $8.5 Lofton $3.0 LF Ramirez: $20 Matsui: $7.0 DH Ortiz: $5.25 Williams: $12.58 SP Schilling: $12.75 Johnson: $16.5 Clement: $8* Mussina: $14.75 Arroyo $1.0 Vasquez: $11.25 Wells $2.5 Brown: $15 Wakefield $4.67 Wright: $7 Faulke $6 Rivera: $10.5
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Dec 17, 2004 19:06:32 GMT -5
This is starting to sound like Michael Wilbon's worst nightmare...Sawx-Yanks, Yanks-Sawx...
As a Orioles/Phillies fan, cursed when the Phillies traded one of the best relievers in baseball in Felix Rodriguez for the 85 year old KENNY LOFTON. I cursed again when they signed Jon Freaking Lieber for $21 million over 3 years. I cursed twice when the Braves acquired Tim Hudson - once for the Orioles not acquiring him, and again for him coming to the NL East.
Yankees fans, shut up. Your team has again tried to buy the title, when instead they're more likely to buy the farm.
Red Sox fans, shut up. You won the World Series. I am starting to put more and more faith into the idea that Bostonians can't live without having something to complain about. Again, YOU WON THE WORLD SERIES.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 17, 2004 20:53:38 GMT -5
FYI, Felix Rodriguez is NOT one of the best relievers in baseball. Sure, he throws gas, but that's about it. Hitters catch on to him pretty quick, that's why the Giants got rid of him (for the mighty Ricky Ledee, nonetheless ). He was simply unreliable towards the end of his tenure with San Francisco, so Philly shouldn't feel too bad. He'll never be more than a set-up man, and a marginal one at that until he learns how to change speeds more effectively. And, yes, I am tired of the Sawx-Yanks talk already, it's the freaking off-season. Unfortunately, with Randy apparently headed to the Yanks soon, this may not end for a while.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Dec 17, 2004 22:08:39 GMT -5
F-Rod (I hate those nicknames by the way) was the most reliable reliever the Phils had aside from Billy Wagner late in the year. I don't mind so much that they shipped him out, it's just that they got squadEdited in return. Sure Lofton WAS good, and maybe he can still play a little, but come on. Spend the dough ::cough::Carlos::cough:: and get a premier ::cough::Beltran::cough:: centerfielder to go with Jim Thome, Bobby Abreu, and the enigmatic Pat Burrell. You think a line up of:
Jimmy Rollins Beltran Abreu Thome Burrell Chase Utley David Bell Mike Liberthal Pitcher of the night
won't compete? Spend the dough, BRING IN BELTRAN.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 18, 2004 2:53:10 GMT -5
This is why I hate baseball during the offseason. The Twins can't compete-basically, their offseason comes down to "did we resign our guys" and "are our prospects goign to be able to replace the guys that left". The Twins never win in teh offseason. NEVER.
I hate it, especially considering we probably have the best GM/farm system around. If you want to argue that point, look at wins per dollar (eliminates all the big money teams) and playoff series wins (good bye Oakland). If Terry Ryan even had half the Yankees payroll to work w/ the Twins would be the favorites to win it all EVERY year.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 18, 2004 2:55:14 GMT -5
One other thing (I'm trying to get that 2nd star ) Now that the Sox have won a series, they aren't the underdog anymore. The Sox are now the Yankees, with a little less money. Meaning, NO ONE FEELS SORRY FOR THE SOX ANYMORE! They're just a poor man's version of the Yankees. Yup, I said it. Everyone outside of NYC and Boston does NOT see a difference b/w the Yanks and Sox anymore.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 18, 2004 12:16:53 GMT -5
Joe Eric Milton had the best ERA on the Phils last season...at 4.75. And you want to spend money on Beltran? Pitching. Wins. Titles. Ask Josh Beckett F-Rod (I hate those nicknames by the way) was the most reliable reliever the Phils had aside from Billy Wagner late in the year. I don't mind so much that they shipped him out, it's just that they got squad Edited in return. Sure Lofton WAS good, and maybe he can still play a little, but come on. Spend the dough ::cough::Carlos::cough:: and get a premier ::cough::Beltran::cough:: centerfielder to go with Jim Thome, Bobby Abreu, and the enigmatic Pat Burrell. You think a line up of: Jimmy Rollins Beltran Abreu Thome Burrell Chase Utley David Bell Mike Liberthal Pitcher of the night won't compete? Spend the dough, BRING IN BELTRAN.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 18, 2004 12:22:34 GMT -5
Who was complaining? Not me...I'm on freaking easy street. Reread my posts fool. I was actually feeling good about our moves...
IT WAS THE YANKEE FAN who was freaking out.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 18, 2004 12:25:24 GMT -5
Borat
We would never have signed Pedro, Pavano, Tek and Clement...never
The priorities were: #1 Pedro #2 Tek #3 Pavano #4 Clement
If we had signed Pedro, there is no way we go after another Ace...because we are trying to nail down Tek.
However, if Tek goes, then we try for two Aces because we are only spending 1.5-2.0 on Mirabelli
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 18, 2004 13:25:08 GMT -5
Where did i say they would have signed all 4? I said they would have signed Pedro and Pavano if they could. they had offers out to Pavano and Pedro simultaneously. When both of them passed, they turned their attention to Clement, and overpaid to get him away from the Angels: 25.5 million over 3 years...9 and 13 with a 3.79 ERA last year...in the NL. Borat We would never have signed Pedro, Pavano, Tek and Clement...never The priorities were: #1 Pedro #2 Tek #3 Pavano #4 Clement If we had signed Pedro, there is no way we go after another Ace...because we are trying to nail down Tek. However, if Tek goes, then we try for two Aces because we are only spending 1.5-2.0 on Mirabelli
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 18, 2004 13:25:58 GMT -5
Was I freaking out? You said the Yankee moves were rooted in panic. I said they weren't. Who was complaining? Not me...I'm on freaking easy street. Reread my posts fool. I was actually feeling good about our moves... IT WAS THE YANKEE FAN who was freaking out.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Dec 18, 2004 13:26:21 GMT -5
Everyone outside of NYC and Boston does NOT see a difference b/w the Yanks and Sox anymore. Speak for yourself. The Yankees are the minions of Satan, on Earth solely to inspire anger amongst upstanding citizens of the world. The Red Sox are merely the team with the most money and best chance of beating the Yankees. They're not David, but they certainly aren't the Yankees either. Borat - the Phillies have Randy Wolf (healhty again), Vicente Padilla (healthy again), Cory Lidle (pitched pretty well late in the year, should continue to do well at Citizens Bank Park), Gavin Floyd (September call-up who is the real deal), and the enigmatic Brett Myers (who can bring some heat and has some good stuff, if he can keep it all together for a season). Now they added Freaking Lieber, so that probably moves Myers out of the rotation, or possibly Floyd back down to Triple-A. Their rotation is solid enough. They just have to throw more than 5 innings a game (which wasn't happening with Kevin Millwood let me tell you). Interesting note (to me): I went to three Phillies home games last year. I didn't plan this, but the Phillies starting pitcher in all three was Eric Milton. I like Eric Milton. Please re-sign Eric Milton. Please get Carlos Beltran. Please?
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 18, 2004 15:38:20 GMT -5
John Lieber is the potential ace of that rotation...he's a great pickup, Joe Hoya. He was really coming on at the end of last season, and I think that's because he was finally getting back to 100% after arm surgery. That rotation is ok, but I'd rate it 3rd in the NL East behind the Braves and Mets. Speak for yourself. The Yankees are the minions of Satan, on Earth solely to inspire anger amongst upstanding citizens of the world. The Red Sox are merely the team with the most money and best chance of beating the Yankees. They're not David, but they certainly aren't the Yankees either. Borat - the Phillies have Randy Wolf (healhty again), Vicente Padilla (healthy again), Cory Lidle (pitched pretty well late in the year, should continue to do well at Citizens Bank Park), Gavin Floyd (September call-up who is the real deal), and the enigmatic Brett Myers (who can bring some heat and has some good stuff, if he can keep it all together for a season). Now they added Freaking Lieber, so that probably moves Myers out of the rotation, or possibly Floyd back down to Triple-A. Their rotation is solid enough. They just have to throw more than 5 innings a game (which wasn't happening with Kevin Millwood let me tell you). Interesting note (to me): I went to three Phillies home games last year. I didn't plan this, but the Phillies starting pitcher in all three was Eric Milton. I like Eric Milton. Please re-sign Eric Milton. Please get Carlos Beltran. Please?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 18, 2004 16:10:50 GMT -5
The NL East is stacked this year pitching wise. The Phillies best chance was last year to finally break through. This year, the Braves just look too good. Hudson/Smoltz are probably the best pitching duo in the majors.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Dec 20, 2004 3:23:15 GMT -5
The NL East is stacked this year pitching wise. The Phillies best chance was last year to finally break through. This year, the Braves just look too good. Hudson/Smoltz are probably the best pitching duo in the majors. Let's see if Smoltz can throw more than three innings at a time anymore before we say that. Besides, I'd take Kerry Wood and Mark Prior, maybe Roger Clemens and Roy Oswalt (assuming Clemens returns) ahead of them. And Mark Mulder and Barry Zito...oh, right.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 20, 2004 9:26:47 GMT -5
From Oakland To: everyone else
Merry Christmas
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