ORU 81 - GU 63, Yahoo; Post; Times

[DanMcQ]

SirSaxa said:

Hey guys! I was the only other poster at the game last night - and I won't attempt to duplicate what Saxacd wrote far better than I would have anyway. It was great to have a fellow board member at the game, and we did go out for a couple of beers afterward and tried not to be too depressed. Then we remembered we were sitting outside on a beautiful night in Hawaii, and it didn't seem so bad afterall.

As for the game, a couple of points.

1. ORU is good. i don't care who they played, what conference they are in, or how good we hope we will eventually be. ORU is coached by Eddie Sutton's son and the guy obviously knows his stuff. That high screen/pick move that some of you say you saw against Illinois? Sutton must have seen the tape because they ran that all night -- and there is no way Roy is ever going to be able to deal with it.

2. ORU outhustled us. They did. They flat out worked harder. They played hard, they played smart. They are good.

3. They are a bit older than our guys, they have played together longer and in the same system longer.

4. As Saxacd said, our defense was attrocious. We gave up 42 in the first half, and another 41 in the second. We got clobbered on the boards, and we had very few Offensive Boards. They had 14 offensive rebounds to our 16 defensive. So when they missed a shot, they had almost the same likelihood of getting the rebound as we did. What's up with that???

5. Also as mentioned, the offense is a work in progress. To me, it looked like our guys were so concerned about passing the ball around, they forgot WHY they were passing so much. They weren't focused on the hoop and getting inside, they really seemed more focused on the passing itself. Clearly, there is a lot to learn here. On the other hand, as one who has watched GU over a very long period of time, seeing our guys running any kind of offense -- even a complex one they have yet to master -- was really a great sight!

6. First time I have seen the new guys. Roy runs like his feet hurt, but he was much better then I had anticipated: more active, some nice moves around the hoop -- that worked!

7. Green is the real deal -- wow I like this kid. He got overpowered by the other green, but he also had some great moves, power dunks, and a few boards. He seemed to be the only Hoya looking for offensive boards -- and as many of you recall, we used to send the entire team at the offensive boards! Very athletic and "take charge". We are going to be very happy with Jeff Green for the next 4 years.

8. Wallace had some nice looking shots and some decent passes, but not his best game I'd guess, especially on defense. We really weren't good on D.

9. As for that run in the second half when we got within 4 at 55-51, as Saxacd wrote, we then made a few mistakes... but ORU also stepped it up... a LOT. They were clearly the better team. And when things got tight, they truned it up a notch, or several notches.

10. Let me say this again, ORU is good. This was not a MEAC cupcake. This is a really, solid team, with quick and smart guards who can hit shots. As for the free throw disparity? We were chasing them. They had the lead. We were also hesitant to drive the lane. We took a lot of jump shots. We shot 18 three pointers. That is not a way to get to the foul line. Sure, there were a few calls we saw differently, but in no way did they make the difference in the game. We lost to a better team last night. Let's just hope our guys continue to learn from it. LBS is supposed to be awful, but our third game should be against a decent opponent, so we'll have one more chance to see what we can do.



Keep the faith. This is going to be a challenging year. We don't have as much talent as we need, but we do have a great new coach and he is working with the kids. They are buying into his approach. But there are going to be some ugly nights, like last night.


Aloha

This is an outstanding post.

However, I have to ask what in God's name are you doing posting on an internet chat board when you could be out on the beach?

[SaxaCD]

it's only 8:45 and it's rainy today so far. : )

[DanMcQ]

SaxaCD85 said:

it's only 8:45 and it's rainy today so far. : )

well then, there must be a bar open somewhere

[EasyEd]

I don't want to stifle optimism but it's hard to see what's happened against Temple and ORU and think anything other than this will be a very long year. I hope for much better but realistically don't think it will happen. Losing to ORU by 18 points is roughly equivalent to losing to Seton Hall or Rutgers by the same amount. To me that's the prospect unless something miraculous happens. I certainly do not want this outlook and would like to join in on the "III is a great coach" and "it will take a while for all to learn the system" and "three of our players getting time are freshmen" and the other rose-colored observations --all gut reactions, but inside my head (not my heart) I don't think we have the talent to really be competitive in the BE.
I would also like to see the coach use some of his timeouts before an opponent's run becomes a runaway. I watched the Illinois game on TV and was screaming for III to call time to stop what turned out to be a 24-3 run. III could have used two or three timeouts during that stretch to bring calm back.
I see a worse record this year than last year. Team, prove me wrong.

[YB]

I agree, Sir Saxa. Great post, and I'd agree with your assessment.

The guys should not take this loss sitting down- they should work a lot harder to beat the snot out of the next teams we face.

But we should not give up on them- this is part and parcel of the fun of rooting for such a new and young team.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Wow! For Dan McQ, it's always 5:00 PM somewhere!!

I think what's hurting a few of us "old schoolers" is not that the team lost but the way they lost. SaxaCD and SirSaxa can shed more light on this since they were there but it "sounded" from the radio and corroborated by posts since that the team was outhustled on defense and on the boards. A "Pops" coached team would never have allowed that!! Besides instilling the Princeton offense, III should be inculcating a healthy dollop of old-time Hoya defense, hustle, tenacity and intensity. ORU may be more experienced and talented but GU teams of days past might have kept last night's game closer by crashing the boards (team STILL needs to learn how to blockout) and playing some sound fundamental defense on the floor (switching through picks, moving with your man, etc.). Just my $.02 from an ever more crotchety fan (Bah, Humbug! LOL) but with perspective that this is very much a rebuilding process......

[YB]

No kidding, WBH. Pops would have sat the starters all the time if they were not hustling- something 3 seems reluctant to do.

[SaxaCD]

I thought they were outhusteld and outmuscled, but the outmuscling was the biggest part. I think SirSaxa may have seen it the other way around. Their Aussie guard was built way stronger than any of our guards, and was also quite quick, and I'd say the same about Caleb Green at the forward position. We had a few nice hustle plays (Wallace making a nice lunge to knock the ball off an opponent and then deftly jumping over the ball so it didn't bounce off him, Jeff Green grabbing a rebound of his own miss and laying it in, a nice tie-up on defense), but on the boards the hustle and muscle were both almost all ORU.

[DanMcQ]

WilsonBlvdHoya said:

Wow! For Dan McQ, it's always 5:00 PM somewhere!!

not really, just trying to be helpful ;D

[jerseyhoya34]

YB said:

No kidding, WBH. Pops would have sat the starters all the time if they were not hustling- something 3 seems reluctant to do.

There's only so much that JT3 can do. It seems like he is willing to sit Owens if Owens is overly passive. Ross has sucked up a large chunk of what would have been Owens' minutes last year because of this.

What can JT3 do if Bad Bowman shows up? Not much considering our lack of depth at that spot.

What can he do if our post players are overly soft? First, we have freshman out there, so he needs to be willing to cut them a break and allow them to learn from their mistakes rather than punish them as if they should know better at this point in their careers. Second, who do you put in? I don't want to be overly harsh, but things would not improve at all if we went to the bench to replace Roy or Green in the post.

We have more options at the guard spots, but let's be honest. What could Ray give us? He is out of control and does not seem like the type who would give us exactly what a coach needs in a particular moment to respond to a problem on the court be it poor offense or matador defense, although Reed can help defensively, sometimes by virtue of his aggressive fouling.

The fact is that there are only a few players on our roster who would be there in an ideal situation, which means that there are quite a few who are unable to compete against the highest level talent in the country. This is why JT3 has gone with a short rotation of roughly 7 players in competitive games.

Anyway, it should get better next season because we probably will have a full recruiting class of guys, who god willing, can play from day one in various capacities. Thornton seems like a guy who can be our zone buster and provide instant offense off the bench. Spann gives us someone with versatility who can hopefully give us 15-20 minutes, if not more. Egerson gives us aggressive play and athleticism at the 2 spot. Now, I think we'll add in a few additional players that will give us more like 10 guys who are capable of playing BE ball for the 2005-2006 season.

As YB has said, this is about baby steps, and we cannot expect miracles this year given the degree to which the program was nearly destroyed over the past few seasons. There have been positives and negatives from this season thus far. Among the positives is our freshmen, who seem to be stepping up considerably in the absence of poor on-the-court leadership from certain older members of the team. Among the positives is the fact that the program has direction and a coach who expects to win every game. Among the negatives is that things don't turn around overnight, and we all saw that clearly last night. I don't know about you, but I still like where we are as opposed to where we were before mid-March early this year.

Onward and upward.

[HoyaRejuveNation85]

Thanks much to SaxaCD and Sir Saxa for the eyewitness reports.

I've read the posts and agree with many posters that we need to be disappointed in the loss, but not lose sight of the fact that we are digging our way back out of a hole. We're going to slip and slide back occasionally, but the object is to make some tangible progress. I'm as guilty as the worst of us in getting my hopes up when we beat Davidson and played Illinois tough for 30 minutes. It made me think I'd underestimated our team. Maybe I did somewhat, but the fact remains that we are relying on freshmen way too much to expect any kind of consistency. I'm encouraged by what I've seen and heard about Jeff, Hibbert and Wallace. That is tempered by subpar efforts from BB and Owens. I'd expected them to step up, but maybe, as Coach III says, they're freshmen too -- at least for half a year.

We focus so much on how quickly the team is adapting to the Princeton offense, etc. I'm concerned about the defense. In our heyday of the 80s, when this poster was in school, we rebounded and defended. When the shots didn't fall, and often they didn't, we always could count on shutting down the Lester Conners and Devin Durrants of the world. Our defense has left much to be desired for several years. We need to turn that around. Easier said than done, I know, but if someone throws a 'bow into your chest in the middle of your huddle, he should be able to identify the grain in the hardwood on the next trip down the floor. Don't think for a second that UConn and Pitt and the rest of the BE aren't going to test our mettle with reports like that in the news. Physical play isn't necessarily dirty play. We need to become more physical. Sure, some of that has to do with muscle, but it's attitude as well.

Some have said that JT2, unlike III, would have reserved a spot on the bench for a non-hustling player or someone who gave up easy second chances. We have to realize that we have a 7-8 man rotation and don't have the luxury of doing anything by spot-sitting any of our better players. This will change as the talent pool increases. I think III has a major coaching challenge this year. We are undermanned in a tough, physical conference. We are going to take our lumps, but we have to get a tougher attitude to put ourselves in the right frame of mind to return to respectability, if not prominence.

I think we're going to need a serious contribution from Cornelio if we're going to win 5 or 6 games in the league this year. We need to play the size we have. I hope that he's not playing because he's adjusting to bigger, quicker players and more complicated sets and not because he's injured in any way. The guy hasn't played ball that long and played in the US in a soft league with small, slow guys. The adjustment he needs to make is huge. That said, he has the tools. I hope he can become an on-the-court contributor at some point this year.

Last point: Our players need to get stronger. If we have guys who aren't the tallest or the quickest, we need to play stronger, more physical defense. These guys need a weight program. I don't know what III has in store in that regard, but the status quo isn't working. To bring the best out of all the players, our guys need to beef up. If they don't, we'll have a very rough time in the conference in the years ahead, better talent or not.

[YB]

I agree- the defense and rebounding is what makes or breaks us (what a surprise!). We hold the other team under 60, we win. We outrebound them, we win. We don't, we lose. Right now, it's really that simple.

It should get more consistent with time but I would like to see more effort there by our guys.

I'd also like to see perhaps a bit more of Cornelio and AF1. They are big and strong for their positions, and despite the fact that they, too, are freshmen and are learning, it might not be a bad idea to have them spell for defensive and rebounding purposes once in a while.

[the_way]

I think JerseyHoya and HoyaRejuve85 hit it right on the head. I'm quite sure JTIII feels the same way that we feel. Again I will quote Bill Parcells,"we are what we are", and to paraphrase Rick Pitino, "Patrick Ewing, Allen Iverson, Michael Graham, or Craig Shelton ain't walkin through that door, okay". We have a long ways to go. Also with this new Princeton "O" and new defensive scheme, the guys are thinking more than just playing right now, which will make you half step slower, which is a lot. Lets be honest, we aren't that good. Better than last year, maybe, but that ain't saying much. The Bright side, is we have a Blue-Chip Freshman in Green, good solid player in Wallace, and long term project in Hibbert, who is trying harder than anybody to improve his game. Plus we have a Great Coach, who has won before. If we play hard, and give it all we got, I can live with the losses because there will be many, some very ugly.

[hoyanick]

I am just going to lay it out there from the start: I am more disappointed with the way certain posters have reacted to this loss than the loss itself.

The people who are expressing apocalyptic opinions must be really detached from reality. I respectfully ask pessimists like "theway" (who expressed a mour dour opinion in his first post), "harbinhoya", "hoyafanny" how many games they have attended this year. Or if they remember our stats from the Davidson game.

Those of us who have seen the Hoyas in action know that the starting lineup is talented and athletic. We know that Wallace is a pure shooter; that Green is going to be All-Big East by the time he leaves; that Roy Hibbert is a great prospect; that Ashanti provides some firepower in the backcourt; that JTII has singlehandedly increased student participation, and that Ramell Ross has heart.

Those of us who have seen the Hoyas in action also realize that Brandon is digressing due to the extra attention he is receiving with Gerarld gone; that Owens needs to drink some KMX before games; that Ashanti needs to figure out how to shoot with some sort of balance; and that our bench is very limited at this point.

Those of us who have been paying attention know that we are rebuilding. We also know, however, that we are not completely devoid of talent.

We had less talent last year. Think about it. Courtland Freeman was our main option in the post. Sead and Amadou, great guys but not necessarily all-stars, were getting minutes in our frontcourt. We lost Gerald, yes, but we gained Wallace and Green and Hibbert and Ross.

We have a better coach this year. He pulls players aside and TEACHES them. Those of us at McD gym and MCI have noticed this.

Realistic hoyas fans also recognize that: teams have bad days, and teams getting to know new systems have them more frequently; ORU is a good, undefeated team that has been featured in the national press; that finals, flying, and fun in Hawaii for immature 18 yearolds probably equates to poor performances.

Hoya fans, please pay attention to the actual games and not box scores. Better days are ahead.

Merry Christmas!

[Goldeneagle]

Perhaps our paths will cross again. It was exciting being a part of your post. I wish you guys the best of luck in the rest of your season playing in the Big East.

I still have much respect for Georgetown. One of my best friends went there. If my kid got in, I'd sent him there in a heartbeat.

[the_way]

Hoyanick, it is obvious you are taking this very personal. Many of us have echoed the same sentiments you just echoed. It may not be to your, eh, "realistic" standards,yet that doesn't make it "pessimistic". All of us pretty much agree that we aren't good RIGHT NOW. Thats not saying we suck, or the world is coming to an end. Its saying hey we got a ways to go, but we have the right Coach and coaching staff to take us there. Thats just being real. Things take time. I'm patient. If G'town lost everygame, I would still be a fan. Having an elitist attitude does not make your opinion more valid than others just because you saw a couple of games. There are a lot of people who watch games, but don't know how to analyze them to save their lives. We are all in this together, fans, players, alike. Separation, is not what we need.

[jerseyhoya34]

One other thing that should come out is that we actually do the things that good programs do.

Last year, we'd read excuses after losses to good teams and how we couldn't expect to make the postseason. This year, we read from coaches and players even after wins, about how they need to do X or Y more effectively.

Last year, we played Duke and could have lost by 50 points. Then we heard about how Duke was a good team and that we couldn't expect to beat them. This year, we play Illinois and lose by 18 points and we hear how people, including the coach, are disappointed. That's a positive development if you ask me.

Last year, we heard about how many trips a certain person made to Kansas to recruit a decent JUCO prospect instead of recruiting a person whose dream school was Georgetown and ended up as a top 50 recruit. This year, we're recruiting in every gym in DC and across the country to find guys who want to be at Georgetown and who want to build a program. In a short time, JT3 has picked up the best player on the Lutheran Prep team. (If folks haven't noticed, Goodridge has not performed at the level of a top 50 or top 100 recruit). We have picked up one of the best players in the south, according to a senior Rivals analyst. We also have someone who can shoot, for once, to add to Wallace, who is a decent prospect for us moving forward.

Anyway, last night does not change the fact that this program is moving forward and our staff is doing exactly the right things to get us back where we need to be. None of us should be under any illusion that the road to victory is going to be tough and we're going to take the wrong exit at times, but let us not forget that we're headed somewhere, which is music to my ears.

[ahoya3]

I must agree with many of the recent posters that there is no need to run off the cliff. We have a good coach, players who have bought into the system, and not a lot of talent. The guys are hustling and playing hard but there is a huge difference in athletecism between our players(especially the guards) and others on teams like Oral Roberts, Illinois etc. Our guards look like boys playing against men. This is a rebuilding year and for me the program has more promise now than in the last 8-9 years. Let's not forget our initial "guestimates" of 4-6 BE wins. Be patient and let them grow.

[CAHoya07]

Just like to say that I was the one that said we only scored 4 points in the point, it was on the front page: "A key stat? Georgetown managed only four points in the paint." Perhaps DFW was wrong.

Anyways, I'd like to echo the sentiments of the board and say we shouldn't jump off the cliff just yet. Was this a disappointing loss? In my mind, definitely. That fact alone that we lost, while being favored by 3, was disappointing, and the way we lost even more so. But perhaps the reason why I was a bit disheartened after the loss was because of the way we started and closed out against Penn State and the way we put up a good fight against Illinois. Maybe hoyabinx was right, my early enthusiasm for the team made me overlook that this was a game many posters thought we would lose prior to the season.

I am also trying to convince my friends back home now, one of whom goes to Notre Dame, that Georgetown basketball is on its way back. Losing by 18 to a school that most of them have never heard of does not help my cause.

But anyways, like many have said, our team this year will have its ups and downs, and this was a definite down. I expect us to bounce back though and win the final two games of the tournament and whup Norfolk and Howard heading into Big East play. Our team will continue to develop, but we still have a right to have expectations. A logical goal for our team this year is the NIT. Can a team that loses by 18 to Oral Roberts do this? I don't know, but I'd hope this team in February and March would not lose like this if they played them then.

I don't like using the excuse "It takes time" after every tough loss in the early season, but it just might be right. However, we all know that that excuse goes out the window once Big East play starts.

Now let's go beat the crap out of Long Beach State.

[lichoya68]

great post by sirsax and other comments good to having seen the team play their home games they are well coached have talent and try hard it does seem orall roberts is good and better than people think,, they did outhustle us bad especially on the offensive boards... need brandon to step up but give em time we will have some fun go hoyas