DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,547
|
Post by DanMcQ on Dec 21, 2004 0:33:51 GMT -5
|
|
kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,993
|
Post by kghoya on Dec 21, 2004 0:47:58 GMT -5
its going to get worse before it gets better. thats all i can come up with right now.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 21, 2004 0:50:31 GMT -5
Ouch, rude start to my break after just getting home. I'd like to hear some eyewitness accounts, it sounds like we got torn apart inside by Caleb Green and torched on the inside by Spencer-Gardner.
It looks we got manhandled physically in this one. We were outrebouned 33-24, and we only attempted FOUR free throws? This is a recurring problem that I've talked about a few times so far this season, looks like it finally bit us in the butt.
Hibbert had a good game. Bowman, where did you go?
First real disappointing loss of the year.
|
|
GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by GUHoya07 on Dec 21, 2004 1:04:12 GMT -5
Im not that dissapointed by the loss, just by the fact that we lost by 18. However, we should all expect ups and downs this season and we will definitely get better.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,743
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 21, 2004 1:14:02 GMT -5
I'm not even disappointed by losing by 18. If it had been all hot outside shooting, and cold shooting by us, alright. It's just hard to listen to the team get outrebounded, beaten to loose balls, give up layups, turn the ball over...
Oh, well, a tough game. Hopefully that's all it was and they can learn from it.
Nice to see Caleb Green exhibiting nice Christian values as well -- walking through our huddle to elbow Roy?
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,547
|
Post by DanMcQ on Dec 21, 2004 1:18:46 GMT -5
Nice to see Caleb Green exhibiting nice Christian values as well -- walking through our huddle to elbow Roy? He was probably just parting the sea, like Moses.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 21, 2004 1:43:59 GMT -5
Boy, the arena sure looked empty from the pictures.
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Dec 21, 2004 2:51:48 GMT -5
Besides the fact that the margins have all been similar--18, 15, and 18 again tonight/this morning, anyone else get the feeling we keep losing the same game? Sounded to me like the same few trends manifesting themselves on the radio tonight that I'd seen in the other two losses.
To a certain extent, you can "hear" Dr. Rich describing what it sounds like when the offense grinds to a halt and gets passive. And I won't throw the full stats up here, but check out the lines of Wayne Marshall of Temple, Augstine and Powell Jr. of Illinois, and Caleb Green tonight and there's an ugly looking trend of interior playing guys having their way. I know, the offense has to come from SOMEWHERE and other guys played well in these games, but it's worth noting in the sense that defense is playing as much or more of a role in the losses.
Of course, the temptation is always in these Hawaii tournament things to blame losses on jet lag. Without an eyewitness report (yet) we can't be sure. Not like the shooting percentage was terrible--43% from the field and 44& from three is okay, maybe some days we'd take that. But my perception from listening is that when ORU went on the run after we pulled within 4 in the second half, we were seriously running on empty. Major credit for controlling the tempo to ORU--that was completely obvious on the radio, lots of transition layups off steals and quick successful possessions.
Here's a "stat" or trend I've been keeping an eye on this year:
3-pt FGs; 2-pt FGs
Cook 3-4; 2-7 Wallace 2-3; 0-2 Owens 2-3; 0-0 Reed 0-1; 0-0 Ross 1-4; 0-1
That's for the people who spent significant minutes playing a guard position. Cook's the outlier tonight, but he's had similar numbers in the past to the bottom four's right side if memory serves.
I realize that the offense calls for a good deal of outside shooting, and that there are capable shooters in that lot. I point this out only because I'm not sure we're truly keeping defenses honest all the time on offense. In the Illinois game (and tonight at points) it sounded like there was just too much passing around the perimeter and not enough creating. Only seldom do any of the guards attempt to break down the defense from the perimeter, even just to get the defense to rotate or collapse. You're just as likely to see Green or Bowman drive as one of the guards at times. I mention it in passing, just as a humble suggestion of what might be worth a try. The joke last game was about Roy not being a mascot; I'm just hoping the guards don't become ornaments hanging on the three point line.
|
|
SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
|
Post by SaxaCD on Dec 21, 2004 3:13:17 GMT -5
Well, just back from post-game dinner post mortem with SirSaxa and his buddy from NY. Ouch.
The place was almost empty for our game -- understandable, considering that the game was played while most people were just driving home from work, and that both teams had fairly small rootings sections, although GU DID have a face-painter in attendance and the Hoya fans in general were pretty noisy. Kudos to the girl who aggressively pounced on that tshirt during the giveaway -- she hustled over a whole section and a half for something I was too lazy to climb over 2 seats to get!
Story of this game was defense and rebounding. As has been mentioned by other eyewitnesses at other games, our offense is still obviously a work in progress. We run plays, but often the players are just too tentative in deciding whether to pass or shoot. In a seasoned "princeton" like team, you see lots of quick ball movement and shots taken when available, even if most of the shot clock is eaten up. With GU, you can see the beginnings of this, but still too much hesitation. I liked what I saw, for the most part, realizing that it's still early into this new, totally different system. Guys missed some wide open jumpers in the first half, but the ball rotation to get those looks was good .
But defense and rebounding? U G L Y. The smirking, all-around unpleasant Caleb Green outmuscled and outhustled GU players on numerous occasions. I saw the Yahoo stat that said we were outrebounded by 12 (counting "team" rebounds), but I thought the number was actually 15 or more (C. Green also had the play of the day, a no look, behind the head pass to a big, plodding teammate for an easy 2). Many times GU would get ORU to take an off-balance shot, only to have them get the offensive rebound and the putback (a bunch of times with a foul shot tacked on). One play in particular was galling, because they'd run a pick and Roy would end up chasing their Aussie guard, who was simply too fast and would get an easy layup. I'd say they ran this at least 4 times for easy scores. Our guards were just getting beat too easily as the first line of defense, leading to our big men having to chase them fruitlessly afterward. JT3 was hot about it and called Ashanti over a few times to talk about what was going on, but they couldn't seem to solve it.
Basically, we just got outmuscled. We were also outhustled, but that was partly because the stronger ORU players would push GU players out of position before a rebound came off. The Hoyas desperately need to work on gaining strength and maintaining position once established, both on offense and defense.
After shrinking the 14 point lead to 4 (with a foul shot coming) but around the 15 minute mark in the second half, I really thought the team was about to take over. but then we went on a big scoring drought and let second chance points surrounding an open 3 sink us. Couldn't get a stop when we needed one. Like I said, offense is a work in progress, but it won't matter much if we continue to play such bad D.
Players:
Owens -- shot well, but not enough, and sat for some long stretches because he just seems to disappear at times. Frustrating, as usual, because his shot really does look so sweet. Needs a killer instinct.
Brandon -- not a lot of Bad Brandon today (except for one of the patented "falling backwards flipping ball toward basket" play late in the second half that actually worked because the ref called a foul), but unfortunately not enough Good Brandon either. He missed a few open J's early, and had two very pretty drives, but he has to be more of a leader and take charge more in important games.
Wallace -- not a particularly great game. From the games I've followed on radio, he's played a lot better. Still showed some nice touch from deep, but I didn't think he set teammates up as well as he could have. One of his threes was easily NBA range, and it hit nothing but net.
Cook -- hit some nice jumpers after it was too late, and made a few difficult shots earlier
Green -- great first half, but scoring trailed off in second. He bounded well in second half, and I was surprised that his rebound total wasn't higher. In the first half he was victimized by Caleb Green a lot, though, who would push him off his mark and then grab the board for easy putbacks. He did this to Roy, too. Jeff is a real keeper though -- very athletic, and has some fire to his game, with a few excellent slams. Got called for a few fouls that looked like good defense/blocks, but he needs to work on maintaining D position (not biting on first move or jumping out to help on somebody, leaving his man all alone). If he can bulk up some, he's going to be an elite player in the league. He seems about 15 lbs of muscle away from being a money double double guy.
Roy -- nice game. This guy may never start, but he's going to be a solid 4 year contributor. 2 nifty baseline moves for buckets, and a great dunk where he changed hands in midair and then dunked with authority. A couple of nice blocks (although I think one might have been called a foul), but he kept switching on a ORU guard who would then beat him to the basket for an easy layup. That's gotta be worked out in practice like YESTERDAY. Roy also got pushed off his spot, but he showed some good heart battling ORU's bulky stiff, who fouled out, but had at least twice as many uncalled fouls. That guy also had 8 points, and that to me was inexcusable. He was like the typical big guy you see on a MAAC team that you figured also played football. I can understand him getting a bound or 2, but 8 points from him should embarrass our defense.
Ramell -- shot just not falling today, and after his first 2 misses, he seemed to get gunshy, hesitating when he got wide open looks. Needs to have more faith in himself and just play the offense, which means if it's open, shoot it, if not, pass crisply.
Oral Robers at this time seems to be a very good TEAM. They communicated well on the floor and hustled to the ball constantly. They were carried by 2 players today, but that's all they needed. Hats off to them for not wilting after the quick GU run at the beginnng of the second half. I still think this is a team that we should be able to beat (must be able to beat), but only by playing stronger and tougher. A good lesson game, but unfortunately it means we now play Long Beach next, and as a spectator, that sorta sucks.
|
|
SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
|
Post by SaxaCD on Dec 21, 2004 3:23:24 GMT -5
FL, we may have been running on empty, but it seemed to me that the two biggest ORU runs came from two things. At the end of the first half, a small Oral lead got up to 10 because we had a weird lineup on the floor due to some foul trouble. In the second half, they got easy buckets from putbacks and some runouts because GU fell out of running the offense and tried to press too much, the classic case of guys not playing within themselves. They might have been tired, but I thought they just fell out of the rhythm of the offense and it lead to some confusing/rushing.
The "stagnation" you pointed out sure did occur for stretches, and it seems to result from guys hesitating in running the motion. I thought cuts to the basket were too late today, or not decisive enough. ORU played man most of the game, yet GU couldn't go backdoor because the movement wasn't crisp enough. Again, like I said earlier, you can see what's supposed to happen, but the players don't seem to believe in themselves enough yet at this point. You can't "half commit" to motion -- it's gotta be full on, and I think it will get there, but the team's still got a lot of hard work ahead of it.
As for jet lag -- I had it something awful when I landed here last week. It's a valid explanation, except the other team should feel it too, so it should even out.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 21, 2004 3:48:18 GMT -5
My concern with the offense is that we only attempted four FT's, and only scored four points in the paint. That's just pathetic, and it's a recurring thing. We have to score inside more, no doubt about it. That includes finding cutters to the hoop and simply taking it to the basket yourself.
That and beef up the D, in each of our losses we've gotten torn apart inside. Rebounds too, atrocious.
We play 1-6 Long Beach State on Wednesday, which lost to Hawaii 54-45. Hopefully we can torch them and then face (and defeat) a worthy adversary on Thursday.
|
|
SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
|
Post by SaxaCD on Dec 21, 2004 3:57:44 GMT -5
Part of the lack of FTs is the tendency to not move decisively enough to the hoop and for the passers not to make the quick pass to the cutter. It's frustrating, because it seems out of nowhere, the guys will execute it perfectly, and it looks like a "can't miss" thing. But then they sort of slow down, or don't go as decisively, and it looks like a team stuck in passing it around. Until the screens get better and the cuts get harder, the offense won't run like it should. Missing our last 6 or so FTs didn't help (or maybe it was last 4 including 2 front ends of 1 and 1s), either.
I do think that the team would benefit from another decisive slasher, hopefully with a little size. I do think a guy like Thornton will really help until the backdoor game gets going, because even in this pass-it-around mode, the Hoyas had numerous open looks. If we sign a kid who can really knock those down, and add him to the guys like Wallace and Cook (and occasionally Green and Owens and Bowman), it should pump up our offensive totals. But you're right, it's the defense/rebounding that by far needs the most help right now.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 21, 2004 4:09:41 GMT -5
I don't know why I earlier said we attempted only four FT's, the box score now clearly says we were 9-15. ORU was 23-30 though, a big difference in the game.
|
|
HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
Posts: 4,991
|
Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 21, 2004 7:09:10 GMT -5
i don't care what their record is, this loss is an embarrassment. we got run off the floor by a team that hasn't beaten a team with a winning record all year. the only name teams they played before us are st louis, who is 2-7 and tulsa, who is 2-4.
in my opinion, this falls on the coaches more than the players. there is no way a team this young should have a 9 day layoff between games. i don't want to hear about finals either. schedule a home game with anyone just to get them on the floor against another team. practice takes up as much time as a game would so you might as well schedule an actual game. it is obvious this team was rusty and came out flat. the coaches number one priority off a layoff this long is to prevent that and they didn't.
i know this is a young team and we're going to have our ups and downs, but to lose like this is ridiculous.
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
|
Post by lichoya68 on Dec 21, 2004 8:52:15 GMT -5
please this remains one of the few undefeated teams in the country i dont care who theyve played and their green and other two leading scorers were obviously very good players lets hope we can win the next two and then howard and norfolk state so well be eight and three pre big east go hoyas remember we had three freshman out there as key players give them and the coaches a break theyll be ups and downs but go hoyas ps brandon has to not disappear for us to win
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
|
Post by lichoya68 on Dec 21, 2004 8:58:04 GMT -5
ps in my initial prediction i said wed be 9 and 2 pre big east..my mistake so far i thought wed win vs temple and i actually predicted a loss to this oral roberts team before the season started they are a very good team go hoyas
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
|
Post by Cambridge on Dec 21, 2004 9:29:12 GMT -5
Oral Roberts is nothing to sniff at. They are tourney bound
|
|
|
Post by BeantownHoya on Dec 21, 2004 9:39:24 GMT -5
The only real concern I have is that we appear to be losing the toss up games. A lost to illinois is completely excusable. The wins versus Citadel, San Jose St, and Penn St were expected and in all thoe cases we were simply the better team. My real issue is our results witrh Temple, Davidson, and Oral Roberts. In my mind these games were against opponents of the same caliber that could go either way and unfortunately we are 1-2 in these games. I have complete faith in JT III but games were we have equal talent are the ones he is brought in to win and make or break a season. I realize we are young, travel time, blah, blah, blah, but we simply didn't show up last night and that is inexusable.
|
|
HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
Posts: 4,991
|
Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 21, 2004 9:45:11 GMT -5
ichoya, this is what you wrote....
go hoyas remember we had three freshman out there as key players give them and the coaches a break theyll be ups and downs but go hoyas ps brandon has to not disappear for us to win
you say give the players and coaches a break and then you slam bowman in the next sentence? that makes no sense.
having people accept an 18 pt loss to oral frigging roberts just becuase they are unbeaten is ridiculous.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on Dec 21, 2004 9:57:46 GMT -5
To Beantown Hoya, as Bill Parcells always said, "we are what we are". What we are is not a good team. We are not equal in talent with Temple, thats a definite. I think what we are is a team with very little talent, a great coach, who is implementing a new system, and things take time. Its not going to happen overnight. We don't have any shooters, and we don't have any nasty in the paint, scrappy type players, save for Jeff Green. I likened it to the Redskins situation. Joe Gibbs is this great coach, who was going to restore the glory years of the Redskins. Since Spurrier was such a bad coach, people thought Gibbs would turn it around just like that. It doesn't work like that. Our problem last year wasn't just coaching. It was recruiting as well. We don't have the players. We have a couple, but to be beaten the way we are being beaten is not a surprise. At times its going to be ugly this year, but hey thats what rebuidling takes sometimes. People don't like change, because its painful, but its for the good. Its not the end of the world. Its not JTIII's fault. We are what we are.
|
|