bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Dec 21, 2004 10:02:43 GMT -5
Even though ORU got a lot of points inside, it seemed the real mismatch was in the backcourt. As with the Temple and Illinois games, Georgetown's guards are beaten too easily. Thompson may have to give up on man-to-man if his guards can't guard.
Where does it say the Hoyas only had 4 points in the paint? Surely, some of 15 2's were in the paint. Didn't Hibbert and Green have a few dunks?
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 21, 2004 10:14:02 GMT -5
I'd put it the other way around -- the guards were beaten too easily, but the real mismatch was still inside. And GU certainly had more than 4 points in the paint -- Hibbs and Green had 2 dunks apiece, Green had a pretty short hook, Hibbs had a putback, Cook had a drive for a layup, and this is all just what I can remember. I don't know where the 4 pts in the paint stat came from, but it's wrong.
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YB
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Post by YB on Dec 21, 2004 10:15:18 GMT -5
As I said at the start, we have to understand, this team is still becoming a team. We will have highs and lows, but the highs are yet to come, mostly- likely toward the end of the year.
You're all right about the passiveness, right about the lack of anger and motivation. Our frontcourt is soft as cake right now and has to play meaner.
The biggest problem was not on offense- it was defense. ORU was just quicker than we were and wanted it more. I heard it on the radio but I could tell- lots of easy layins, guys slipping by their GU defenders.
We must play better as a squad. No question. More as a team. Mask our weaknesses- height and speed- by playing better together. That only comes with time.
I still expect us to play better by the end.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Dec 21, 2004 10:25:29 GMT -5
I agree YB, I think we are all frustrated by the teams woes, and what to see them do good right away,but it will take time. JTIII is a great coach. You see his old Princeton team ran neck and neck with Temple last night. They lost by 2 to Temple.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 21, 2004 10:25:44 GMT -5
To tell you the truth, Green played with some fire, and Hibbert even showed some, pumping his fist after scoring on a putback and getting the foul as well. Sometimes defense and rebounding is who wants it more, but sometimes it's also who's stronger. The Hoyas have to both want it more AND put some serious time into the weight room so they're not pushed off their mark for rebounds.
And from what I saw, ORU would finish in the middle of the Big East this year -- something nobody predicted us to do. I think as the GU team improves and gets more comfortable with the offense/defense they will get a few upsets against good Big East teams. After watching the game yesterday, though, I don't think those upsets will come against teams with big bulky players on the inside, unless we shoot absolutely lights out from deep.
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YB
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Post by YB on Dec 21, 2004 10:35:09 GMT -5
I don't think it was our lack of bulk- although we need more bulk and need to get stronger as a squad, certainly.
I think it was our lack of team speed. They ran a very unorthodox lineup of 3 small, quick guards and a small forward and a couple of stiffs at the power spot. The stiffs got easy shots because their other 4 players blew right by our players.
Good team defense can beat that, but we are not yet at a point where we are playing consistent team defense.
We will get there though. Give it time.
I hope the guys use this ugly, intimidating beating as a learning experience.
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hoyabinx
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Post by hoyabinx on Dec 21, 2004 11:15:24 GMT -5
ichoya, this is what you wrote.... go hoyas remember we had three freshman out there as key players give them and the coaches a break theyll be ups and downs but go hoyas ps brandon has to not disappear for us to win you say give the players and coaches a break and then you slam bowman in the next sentence? that makes no sense. having people accept an 18 pt loss to oral frigging roberts just becuase they are unbeaten is ridiculous. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Ladies and Gentlemen, I think that we are a victim of our own enthusiasm. Coming into this season most people had the attitude that any win was a good win (aside from the cupcakes), after seeing Green light it up, a good showing against Illinois and Davidson, and beating Penn State pretty well I think we all started thinking 10-6 in BE and a tourney bid. Lets not lose sight of where we started this year--13-15 last season, new coach, lost leading scorer and a veteran, and having to start at least 2 freshmen. Now, in my book, losing to a team picked to handily win its conference isnt bad, no matter how weak that conference is or how bad the loss was. Growing pains people. We have 3 18 year olds getting a lot of PT and 3 veterans learning a whole new system, did you think that we were gonna blow people out of the water? I dont care who you are, freshmen need time to adjust and that could be one of the reasons why our D was so bad last night. That Caleb G. guy downlow took us to the house, big deal, he did it against two guys who were in high school 6 months ago. Don't lose sight of the goal, which is a reversal of the programs downfall, which, I think most will agree JTIII is engineering. We have seen ups and downs, but the fact of the matter is if Esh were still in power we all would be a lot more pessimistic than we are now.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 21, 2004 11:53:42 GMT -5
Thank you Saxa for taking the time to write the recap from beautiful Oahu. I think I can safely say most of us wish we were there.
The notes about the guards beating Roy on the screen are a bit of a concern. Going back to the Illinois game, Augustine and Powell (mostly Augustine) must have beaten Jeff Green 5 or 6 times on the same pick and roll move at the three point line when he came out to cover it. Of course, both cases prompt the question: is that really Roy/Jeff's fault?
As you pointed out, it's Ashanti Cook getting talked to by the coach. Illinois is one thing--just about anybody will be tried by their backcourt talent. But in general we've got to be better about shutting down guards at the perimeter to make the high screen and roll less of a problem for us. Jeff MIGHT be able to recover in those situations, given more teaching and discipline. But Roy, though he had another solid game offensively last night, it still 7 foot 2 and not swift of foot. If he gets caught out at the perimeter and it's a race between him and someone else, "someone else" will win 95% of the time. Gotta get the guards to do a better job working through screens and cutting down penetration--although my perception from the first several games we played is that the interior defense rotates very well on penetration.
The jet lag issue I raised just because no one had yet and it's inevitable it does whenever a team plays in Hawaii or Alaska. As I said, our FG and 3-point % do not support a team so tired it couldn't shoot. But we certainly seemed to have been outhustled and worked by ORU, and that in itself is certainly a concern. I'm of the camp that believes our defense is more crucial than the offense in our success. Not that when the offense goes stagnant it isn't a concern, but I see us as needing to control the tempo of games. And for that purpose, it's just as important to make the OTHER team work hard for baskets and take time of the shot clock as it is for us to be deliberate in getting a good shot. Weren't doing that to ORU last night.
Thornton will be a nice addition next year. Having seen him only twice at the Kenner League, he certainly didn't seem shy about shootin the deep ball, and I mean the DEEP ball.
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Post by michiganhoya on Dec 21, 2004 11:54:39 GMT -5
I understand that we are rebuilding and learning a new system, but I agree w/HoyaFanNY -- this is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous than the Hoyas losing to Oral Roberts is the excuse making that's going on here.
I guess I didn't realize how far this program has fallen and how low expectations have gotten. This is a serious embarassment for our program. Oral Roberts? Sure, they are a tournament team b/c of an automatic bid.
The Hoyas, despite Green, Bowman (?), and Cook, generally lack the talent to compete. We have a group of mediocre guards and no size up front. Hibbert is a project, and will likely remain a project at least through the remainder of this year. Green is talented, but one man does not make a front court.
We are in for a very long season. Can anyone tell me where I can buy a set of those rose colored glasses that everyone else is wearing?
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Dec 21, 2004 12:04:06 GMT -5
Let me summarize these posts:
All our players suck! Why do we suck so much?
We went 3-15 to finish the year last year. We're going to struggle sometimes, and OR is an experienced team with a player (Green) who we had no answer for. Yeah, I wish we were contending for an NCAA berth this year too. I fervently hope that we will do so next season.
Who are you guys so angry at? The players? The coach? The admin? Esh? Take this season for what it is and you'll be happier.
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hoyabinx
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Post by hoyabinx on Dec 21, 2004 12:25:27 GMT -5
Let me summarize these posts: All our players suck! Why do we suck so much? Lol, that is exactly what I was thinking when reading these posts.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 21, 2004 12:41:14 GMT -5
new york hoya how is it inconsistant to give freshman some time to grow and wish that bowman be more consistant i believe he is not a freshman but has a couple of years under his belt is that inconsistant i believe not go hoyas and i hope brandon figures out ccnsistancy ok
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 21, 2004 12:45:46 GMT -5
I'm personally not angry at anyone, nor am I upset. This is all part of a big old learning curve. As someone else has rightly pointed out today, three freshman see significant playing time on this team, and wouldn't you know it, it's the starting PG and the two main interior players. Those are some big stress points on a team. Plus the rest of the guys are learning an entirely new offensive and defensive system.
Gotta take the longer view in my opinion and look not so much at wins and losses at face value, but how the team is improving over time. I notice and write about things like the two things I've been going on about for this game--the low number of non-3 pointers the guards take and the defense getting beat by high screens--because I think those are two areas where we can improve and I think we will as the players mature and become acclimated to the offense/defense.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 21, 2004 12:58:41 GMT -5
i don't care what their record is, this loss is an embarrassment. we got run off the floor by a team that hasn't beaten a team with a winning record all year. the only name teams they played before us are st louis, who is 2-7 and tulsa, who is 2-4. I've always loved this logic. I'm not saying ORU is great, but just because they hadn't proven anything doesn't mean they have proven themselves to be bad. There's a difference.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 21, 2004 13:00:51 GMT -5
having people accept an 18 pt loss to oral frigging roberts just becuase they are unbeaten is ridiculous. And you suggest what? FIRE THE COACH! WOOHOO! DON"T ACCEPT THIS LOSS! TAR AND FEATHER THE EQUIPMENT MANAGER! STORM DEGIOIA'S OFFICE! I think acceptance, especially from a fan, is exactly the right response for the situation.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 21, 2004 13:03:53 GMT -5
The only real concern I have is that we appear to be losing the toss up games. A lost to illinois is completely excusable. The wins versus Citadel, San Jose St, and Penn St were expected and in all thoe cases we were simply the better team. My real issue is our results witrh Temple, Davidson, and Oral Roberts. In my mind these games were against opponents of the same caliber that could go either way and unfortunately we are 1-2 in these games. I have complete faith in JT III but games were we have equal talent are the ones he is brought in to win and make or break a season. I realize we are young, travel time, blah, blah, blah, but we simply didn't show up last night and that is inexusable. 1-2 in tossup games? Wow. Is anyone shocked? I mean, you can't technically be closer than .500, which is what you'd expect is toss up games. Patience, grasshopper. There's a whole lot more season to go.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 21, 2004 13:14:36 GMT -5
UNC lost to Santa Clara. That's a lot worse loss. Now, we're not UNC, but we were a 1 to 3 point favorite. Just because you think Oral Roberts is podunk doesn't mean they are. And even if they are, any team can beat any team.
Is it encouraging? No. But man, it's like you folk are girding up to fire the coach.
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YB
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Post by YB on Dec 21, 2004 13:19:25 GMT -5
SF, I agree.
We must have some patience as fans. I don't think the team should accept this loss- it would appear they were slow to adjust and accept the coaching 3 was giving them- but young teams do this.
As I said, taken at the end of this year, I think it will prove out that they started slow, learned and were much more competitive toward the end.
No need to jump off roofs yet- though no reason to be ahppy about this loss either.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Dec 21, 2004 13:29:21 GMT -5
I think the problem is, and this was expressed by another poster, that after a few decent wins and good showing against Illinois, people lost track that this is a very flawed team. Granted, 18 points to ORU is pretty pathetic, but I don't think you can be really surprised by the way the team is playing. If there is an aberration, it’s the Illinois game, not this one.
I enjoy people picking on other BE teams like Rutgers, Seton Hall or Villanova for losses or bad games that they have and saying, inevitably, that "blank team doesn't scare me." What do you think every other BE team's fans say about G-town. If I was at Villanova, after beating myself up for being a loser, I would pencil in the games against G-town as a win. Once BE play starts, I'll be surprised by every win - I hope I'll be surprised often, but I'm not counting on it.
hm
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 21, 2004 13:35:02 GMT -5
Hey guys! I was the only other poster at the game last night - and I won't attempt to duplicate what Saxacd wrote far better than I would have anyway. It was great to have a fellow board member at the game, and we did go out for a couple of beers afterward and tried not to be too depressed. Then we remembered we were sitting outside on a beautiful night in Hawaii, and it didn't seem so bad afterall.
As for the game, a couple of points.
1. ORU is good. i don't care who they played, what conference they are in, or how good we hope we will eventually be. ORU is coached by Eddie Sutton's son and the guy obviously knows his stuff. That high screen/pick move that some of you say you saw against Illinois? Sutton must have seen the tape because they ran that all night -- and there is no way Roy is ever going to be able to deal with it.
2. ORU outhustled us. They did. They flat out worked harder. They played hard, they played smart. They are good.
3. They are a bit older than our guys, they have played together longer and in the same system longer.
4. As Saxacd said, our defense was attrocious. We gave up 42 in the first half, and another 41 in the second. We got clobbered on the boards, and we had very few Offensive Boards. They had 14 offensive rebounds to our 16 defensive. So when they missed a shot, they had almost the same likelihood of getting the rebound as we did. What's up with that???
5. Also as mentioned, the offense is a work in progress. To me, it looked like our guys were so concerned about passing the ball around, they forgot WHY they were passing so much. They weren't focused on the hoop and getting inside, they really seemed more focused on the passing itself. Clearly, there is a lot to learn here. On the other hand, as one who has watched GU over a very long period of time, seeing our guys running any kind of offense -- even a complex one they have yet to master -- was really a great sight!
6. First time I have seen the new guys. Roy runs like his feet hurt, but he was much better then I had anticipated: more active, some nice moves around the hoop -- that worked!
7. Green is the real deal -- wow I like this kid. He got overpowered by the other green, but he also had some great moves, power dunks, and a few boards. He seemed to be the only Hoya looking for offensive boards -- and as many of you recall, we used to send the entire team at the offensive boards! Very athletic and "take charge". We are going to be very happy with Jeff Green for the next 4 years.
8. Wallace had some nice looking shots and some decent passes, but not his best game I'd guess, especially on defense. We really weren't good on D.
9. As for that run in the second half when we got within 4 at 55-51, as Saxacd wrote, we then made a few mistakes... but ORU also stepped it up... a LOT. They were clearly the better team. And when things got tight, they truned it up a notch, or several notches.
10. Let me say this again, ORU is good. This was not a MEAC cupcake. This is a really, solid team, with quick and smart guards who can hit shots. As for the free throw disparity? We were chasing them. They had the lead. We were also hesitant to drive the lane. We took a lot of jump shots. We shot 18 three pointers. That is not a way to get to the foul line. Sure, there were a few calls we saw differently, but in no way did they make the difference in the game. We lost to a better team last night. Let's just hope our guys continue to learn from it. LBS is supposed to be awful, but our third game should be against a decent opponent, so we'll have one more chance to see what we can do.
Keep the faith. This is going to be a challenging year. We don't have as much talent as we need, but we do have a great new coach and he is working with the kids. They are buying into his approach. But there are going to be some ugly nights, like last night.
Aloha
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