GUJook97
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,445
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 11, 2007 16:10:52 GMT -5
I'm not questioning anyone's right to question, but I'm not sure how home games against 3-5 Davidson are so much more impressive than roadies at ODU, Memphis and (for all intents and purposes) 'bama, plus two extra league games. agreed.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 16:13:40 GMT -5
The BE may not be as strong as it is in past years, but almost every other league save the PAC10 is weaker. The Big East has five ranked teams, tops of all the conferences.
Also, as has been said, Georgetown plays 18 BE games, not sixteen. That adds one "killer road game" when compared to UNC, Kansas, and Texas.
And, as has been said, Alabama was supposed to be good this year before two key players got hurt. Michigan was an NIT team last year - Beilein is apparently tearing things down and starting from scratch. We cannot call other schools and say "Hey - we need Beilein to play Amaker's style for one game so we can call it legit on our strength of schedule" and "hey - inject your hurt players with lots of drugs so that they can play".
Also, there are some real total stinkers. Kansas played Washburn, for crying out loud. The weakest teams on our schedule are W&M (who plays in a respectable conference but stinks) and American (who's usually competitive in a bad conference). There aren't any dregs.
Yes, any defense of the schedule isn't really worth much, and playing at Old Dominion isn't the same as playing at USC. But calm down. You. Must. Chill.
Also, afalcon - we haven't played Radford yet and have thus given no effort, lacksadaisacal or not.
Unless you have a time machine and have seen the future.
Which would be really cool.
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Post by badgerhoya on Dec 11, 2007 16:14:48 GMT -5
UNC: Davidson, @byu, @ohio State, @kentucky (Note: odu is not the same as @byu,@osu,@uk) Kansas: Arizona, @usc, @boston College Duke: Illinois, @marquette, Wisconsin, Davidson, @ Pittsburgh Washington St. : @ Gonzaga ....(weak sauce, and will pay for it in the Pac-10) UCLA: Michigan State, Texas, Davidson Marquette: Oklahoma State, Duke, @ Wisconsin Michigan State: @ucla, North Carolina State, @byu, Texas Texas: Tennessee, @ucla, @michigan State, Wisconsin, St.Mary's ...Georgetown: @ Memphis FWIW, if you're doing this "killer road"/home analysis, you've gotta indicate neutral floor games as part of tourneys, as those make up the *vast* majority of them. By my count, the only true road games played on your list are: UNC: @ OSU and KY Kansas: @ BC and USC WSU @ Gonzaga Texas @ UCLA Marquette @ UW (thx for catching -- should know this one) That's it.
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 16:22:06 GMT -5
haha good call i meant fairfield
and i would say fairfield, ball state, radford, jacksonville, american and fordham are all worse than W+M and included in that list is a couple "washburns" as well.
and im too lazy to check your list (finals loom) but i just watched with my own eyes marquette play @ wisconsins home court a couple days ago so.. might want to double check the rest of your list.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 11, 2007 16:24:52 GMT -5
damn caught in my own logic. I just think the difference is not as big as some people think. I still think alabama and odu should be included in quality games for us.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 11, 2007 16:38:03 GMT -5
Davidson also has losses against Charlotte and Western Michigan, and their three wins are against App State, N.C. Central, and (non d1) Emory. Give me a break.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 16:40:17 GMT -5
Finals are easy.
Washburn is a D2 school. Not only that, they're a D2 school that finished 8-19 last year. In their defense, they are 5-1 this year after an overtime win over the University of Central Oklahoma Bronchos.
I'd dispute the characterization of the rest. They're all at about the same level - mediocre mid-majors.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Filo on Dec 11, 2007 16:47:01 GMT -5
yo seriously none of us think jt3 is anything less than the best coach around and none of us think our Hoyas are just going to tank come big east play.. we're all fans, we all know how good this team is and we are all extremely excited for the huge games come jan and feb. that being said it does not mean we are not allowed to question what is undoubtedly one of the easiest OOC schedules around for elite teams in the country. No one is questioning anyone else's dedication to the team or trying to silence anyone from voicing an opinion. You aked our opinions: A bunch of us think the answer is a resounding "NO - NOT A CAUSE FOR CONCERN." But now you are changing the issue to something along the lines of "let's count and see how many top 20 teams the other top teams are playing." I concede - the Hoyas are not playing as many as some others. Great counting job. Still don't think it is going to make a difference come March. I think these have been addressed but I don't see to many killer road games there. @byu, @ohio State (this year?), @kentucky (this year?). Not much different from ODU in terms of game atmosphere and tought to beat on their homecourt. I am looking at one and maybe two "killer road games" for each of the teams you listed. Not much different from the Hoyas. At ODU is as tougher or tougher than those other three you listed. Remember, they spanked the Hoyas last year and they have only lost something like 4 games at home. Again, if you want to get hung up on rankings fine, but in my mind the odu game is as good as most of the road games you listed. I see no reason to devalue it just because we spanked them. Your original question was about prepping for the conference and I just don't see why odu is any worse than @byu in that regard. I love irony.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 11, 2007 16:49:22 GMT -5
and i would say fairfield, ball state, radford, jacksonville, american and fordham are all worse than W+M and included in that list is a couple "washburns" as well. Last year's season-end RPI's (since this year's are worthless for the time being): 108 Fordham 178 American 196 W&M 201 Jacksonville 205 Fairfield 274 Ball State 319 Radford (Non D1) Washburn The 100-200 range non-conference games are what people have been screaming for for years, and we have five of them in the schedule this year (if you're "generous" enough to stretch that to #205). With two clunkers -- Ball State (on the road), and Radford (exam game, and in McD). There is plenty of room for improvement on the top end (adding 1-2 marquee games), but let's not talk like this is a cupcake-filled schedule, a la 2003-04 (7 games against teams w/ RPI 225+) 2004-05 (6 games) 2005-06 (6 games) 2006-07 (5 games against 224+)
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 16:52:44 GMT -5
i dont care how "tough" an arena is. Playing a better team is more difficult than playing a worse team. @ BYU is a tougher game , this year, than @ ODU. Plus, how much do you really know about the environment in Mormanland. Do you really know that ODU's a tougher atmosphere...Mitt Romney might have a thing or two to say about that...
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 11, 2007 16:58:28 GMT -5
Maybe, but neither UNC nor Michigan State played "at" BYU (though MSU played in Salt Lake, so roughly equivalent to our road game vs. 'bama).
Plus, ODU has four losses, all to currently ranked teams, which brings me back to how ridiculous it is to say Davidson (w/ 5 losses including two to unranked teams and no quality wins) is better.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 17:00:32 GMT -5
filo, we should count the number of top 20 teams the other top teams are playing because we are competing against them for seeding. our schedule doesn't exist in a vacuum. sure many of us want to play other really good teams to see how the hoyas stack up, but practically speaking, it will also make a difference in seeding which makes a difference in our title hopes. assuming unc gets a #1 seed, i'd rather not have to play them in charlotte or anyone else really close to their homes. sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bracketologywe've played ONE tournament caliber team. anyway you slice it. that doesn't match up with the other schools. maybe odu will sneak in to the dance and bama was supposed to be good when we scheduled them, but even taking those factors into account our ooc schedule this year is worse than last years by a fair margin.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 17:01:16 GMT -5
BYU's current RPI rank according to college RPI is 87. ODU's is 137. BYU's a better team, but they're not a much better team.
BYU's arena hosts a little more than 19,000 - the attendance was around 16,500. The attendance for ODU was 8,424 in a sellout. Mormonland comments aside, could you at least stipulate that sellouts, especially sellouts in small arenas, are probably noisier than games in massive cavernous NBA-sized arenas?
Please?
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FLHoya
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Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 11, 2007 17:02:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but:
there seems to be this obsession with either the ranking of an opponent or their conference affiliation as the indicator of their worth as a non-conference opponent.
I would propose the following hypothesis (that for time reasons I can't lay out a full defense of at the moment): JT3 is more interested in scheduling opponents and locations he feels will provide his team with valuable lessons come conference season regardless of projected ranking or conference.
A few items that may support the hypothesis from this season:
1. JT3 added William and Mary to the schedule, and we completed the Fairfield series. Both teams played heavy zone defense against us. Both times the Hoyas struggled with shot selection at points and how to deal with a packed-in defense vs. Hibbert.
2. We just played Jacksonville. JT3 and Burke know JU's coach, and I'm fairly certain know what style he plays. We got a team that went to heavy 2-2-1 and 1-2-2 full court pressure. You know which team gave us the most fits last season? Villanova. You know what we couldn't solve for the longest time against Nova? Their full court zone pressure schemes.
3. JT3 has a history of doing the above.
4. JT3 also has a history of playing road games in jacked up mid major gyms.
How does this strike you?
A final point--there is such a thing as the "fan's perspective" on who would be best to schedule, and the "coach's perspective". It'd be great if they intersected, but it's not likely, and the coach's perspective (provided you have a good coach/teacher--I think JT3 qualifies) should always win out, frustrating as that is when you look at your season ticket package and see "American" instead of "Duke".
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 17:02:40 GMT -5
michigan state in detroit would not be fun either
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Dec 11, 2007 17:03:03 GMT -5
I raised this issue in the games of interest thread over the weekend. A few points:
a) JT III will probably have the team prepared fine, and I am certainly not going to question his ability to get the team ready. The team will continue to develop, and we probably don't know as much as you would have had, say, Steele not gone down or Fordham not been as lame as they are.
b) I thought the OOC schedule was intriguing when it was announced, I liked the combination of big conference teams, local rivals, Catholic schools, mid majors, some road games, Memphis. But it has turned out to be terrible as many folks have noted as teams are worse than expected. This isn't up for debate - it is one of the worst in the country and the worst in the league and I don't expect it to change much. This idea that Michigan or Alabama are going to become Oregon or Vanderbilt - don't hold your breath. GU's NCAA seed will suffer as a result.
c) I think GU will make the NCAAs. The weak OOC may affect its ability to get, say, a 1, 2, or 3 ranking. Someone wrote that GU could go 10-8 and make the NCAAs. Not without a win at Memphis they don't. No way, no how. GU loses to Memphis, they need 11, probably 12 wins to make the tourney. Will they get it? I think so.
I don't think the issue is JT III and whether he knows what he is doing or whatever. I think it was bad breaks. And I think GU beats Memphis so all this becomes a funny sidebar. But the OOC conference schedule is weak, and the press references to the last time GU being undefeated being the last Esh year are unintentionally ironic, because the schedule is pretty lame just as it was back then.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,604
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 11, 2007 17:04:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but: there seems to be this obsession with either the ranking of an opponent or their conference affiliation as the indicator of their worth as a non-conference opponent. I would propose the following hypothesis (that for time reasons I can't lay out a full defense of at the moment): JT3 is more interested in scheduling opponents and locations he feels will provide his team with valuable lessons come conference season regardless of projected ranking or conference. A few items that may support the hypothesis from this season: 1. JT3 added William and Mary to the schedule, and we completed the Fairfield series. Both teams played heavy zone defense against us. Both times the Hoyas struggled with shot selection at points and how to deal with a packed-in defense vs. Hibbert. 2. We just played Jacksonville. JT3 and Burke know JU's coach, and I'm fairly certain know what style he plays. We got a team that went to heavy 2-2-1 and 1-2-2 full court pressure. You know which team gave us the most fits last season? Villanova. You know what we couldn't solve for the longest time against Nova? Their full court zone pressure schemes. 3. JT3 has a history of doing the above. 4. JT3 also has a history of playing road games in jacked up mid major gyms. How does this strike you? A final point--there is such a thing as the "fan's perspective" on who would be best to schedule, and the "coach's perspective". It'd be great if they intersected, but it's not likely, and the coach's perspective (provided you have a good coach/teacher--I think JT3 qualifies) should always win out, frustrating as that is when you look at your season ticket package and see "American" instead of "Duke". I can think of no better use of my 1000th post than to endorse FLHoya's excellent analysis and observation.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Dec 11, 2007 17:05:29 GMT -5
I think any Hoyas in North Carolina would love that bracket!
Even though the Big East is down it still gives you plenty of chances to play against hostile crowds (as will the Memphis game). With that under our belt I don't think we'd be at a big disadvantage against UNC in Charlotte, or against any team close to their home.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 17:05:50 GMT -5
agreed
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 17:08:44 GMT -5
filo, we should count the number of top 20 teams the other top teams are playing because we are competing against them for seeding. our schedule doesn't exist in a vacuum. sure many of us want to play other really good teams to see how the hoyas stack up, but practically speaking, it will also make a difference in seeding which makes a difference in our title hopes. assuming unc gets a #1 seed, i'd rather not have to play them in charlotte or anyone else really close to their homes. sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bracketologywe've played ONE tournament caliber team. anyway you slice it. that doesn't match up with the other schools. maybe odu will sneak in to the dance and bama was supposed to be good when we scheduled them, but even taking those factors into account our ooc schedule this year is worse than last years by a fair margin. We will almost certainly not play UNC in Charlotte. The NCAA HATES rematches. UNC, if they're a top seed, will get Charlotte and we'll go somewhere else if we're a top seed or a #2. Our schedule last year is similar to this year's. Our notable games from legit conferences were Vandy, Oregon, (both of whom were unranked when we played them) Duke, and Michigan. We played Winston Salem State last year! The differences from last year were Hartford, James Madison, WSSU, Oral Roberts, Towson, and Navy. That compares to W&M, Alabama, Jacksonville, Radford, Fordham, and American. We add two Big East schools and play the #1 team in the country. Really, what's the difference from last year and this year? You're debating miniscule differences in scheduling levels.
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