Jack
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Post by Jack on Dec 11, 2007 13:14:13 GMT -5
in 97-98 georgetown was also a joke-a has-been. Georgetown basketball history did not begin in the last four years. Right. But for early departures, health, and other issues, the 97-98 the roster could have been: Iverson Page Long Aw White With Brunner, Sheffey, Burton, Boumtje-Boumtje and Perry all on the bench. Even take AI off that team and it would have challenged for a Big East title.
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Post by capcenterhoya on Dec 11, 2007 13:43:34 GMT -5
Most years I'd agree with the need for an improved non-conference schedule...because most year's the goal is to make the NCAA's and see what happens. This year we're going to make the NCAA's regardless, our goal is National Championship all the way. I don't buy much the "better prepared" argument. JTIII knows what he's doing. In III we trust. Just because the schedule makes sense from JTIII's perspective does not mean it is acceptable from a fan's perspective. As a follower of the team for MANY years, I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than playing and winning big games out of conference. Sure, it may not affect the ultimate outcome of the season, but ultimately a game is a game. Whether it is played in March or December, I'm going to watch it and be excited be about it. Would any fan honestly rather watch us play Jacksonville than Florida State (a team I know was looking for a top opponent pretty late in the scheduling process)? I think EVERY fan should be upset about this year's schedule. While I admit some naivete regarding the scheduling process, I am sure Georgetown could have gotten some better opponents if that was their goal. But hey, if I'm JTIII, I love the schedule. He's judged on results, not what ifs. With 18 Big East games, we have more than enough opportunity to prove ourselves. But that does not mean we should just excuse it.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Dec 11, 2007 13:47:14 GMT -5
JTIII knows what he's doing. In III we trust. what he said......
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 13:57:12 GMT -5
Most years I'd agree with the need for an improved non-conference schedule...because most year's the goal is to make the NCAA's and see what happens. This year we're going to make the NCAA's regardless, our goal is National Championship all the way. I don't buy much the "better prepared" argument. JTIII knows what he's doing. In III we trust. Just because the schedule makes sense from JTIII's perspective does not mean it is acceptable from a fan's perspective. As a follower of the team for MANY years, I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than playing and winning big games out of conference. Sure, it may not affect the ultimate outcome of the season, but ultimately a game is a game. Whether it is played in March or December, I'm going to watch it and be excited be about it. Would any fan honestly rather watch us play Jacksonville than Florida State (a team I know was looking for a top opponent pretty late in the scheduling process)? I think EVERY fan should be upset about this year's schedule. While I admit some naivete regarding the scheduling process, I am sure Georgetown could have gotten some better opponents if that was their goal. But hey, if I'm JTIII, I love the schedule. He's judged on results, not what ifs. With 18 Big East games, we have more than enough opportunity to prove ourselves. But that does not mean we should just excuse it. Beating Duke was great. Beating UNC to make the Final Four was sweeter. Beating Memphis would be nice. Taking the Big East regular season title might be even cooler. Smacking Syracuse around would also be up there. Florida State is an overrated basketball school and has been since Sura left. There isn't much value in playing them. III's consistent explanation has been that the Verizon Center gives a remarkable paucity of dates which significantly constrains the schedule (he's mentioned discussions with Kansas that go nowhere because of this problem). In addition, many schools don't want to play a team that will almost certainly be a tough out. This isn't March Madness 2008 where you replace Albany with Kentucky with three button clicks. And, really, what is there to "excuse"? This team is a national championship contender, and has played a schedule the last few years that has resulted in them playing best when it counts most. I really want a marquee home game, but it's been claimed that this is a one-year blip. I'm cool with that. And "upset" is a reach. There are lots of things to be upset about. Currently, I can't really see GU basketball as one of them.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 11, 2007 13:57:22 GMT -5
"I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than playing and winning big games out of conference"
Really? You would put one home game against a Florida State ahead home games against UConn, Nova, Notre Dame, Cuse, and Louisville, success in the BE tourney and success in the NCAA's?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 11, 2007 14:12:31 GMT -5
^^Some folks would. I don't feel that way but I do get a thrill for the big time OOC games because the opponet will be one we don't see the Hoyas facing annually.
Actually I'm most ticked off that our two lone CBS regular season games are against BE teams. I would love to have them be for OOC opponets like it was for Duke a couple of years ago.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 14:15:14 GMT -5
Jack, Exorcist ... i don't even understand your reply. of course georgetown history didn't begin in 97-98. what does that have to do with anything? i was at georgetown from 98-02 and our program was a shell of its former self; a once great program that wasn't garnering much respect from students, local media or so-called experts. nor did we deserve any given our performance on the court. who cares what could have been for the 97-98 team; it was 16-15 with 12 losses in conference and lost in the second round of the NIT. from that season until when JTIII arrived we had one trip to the sweet 16, and even that was kind of a fluke since we played a 15 seed in the second round which had upset 2 seed iowa state. georgetown had fallen into disrepair.
but that's a digression. its totally fair for us to critique our ooc schedule this year. we aren't playing any good teams outside of memphis. this might not be such a bad thing in most years, but given the big east's inability to beat anyone that's really good out of conference, our conference rpi is going to suffer. i trust JTII as much as anyone else, but the fact is that when it comes to tournament time, we may get a worse seed that our title contender brethren because of our lack of marquee games in november and december.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 14:17:45 GMT -5
MCIGuy:
Fair point. The problem is that there are maybe ten OOC teams that are guaranteed to create interest and excitement no matter what their record. There are probably ten more that are really really good. Scheduling so we play one of those teams every year - especially once a year at home - is almost impossible.
I'm happy with Memphis this year, which really does solve a lot of the ills of the schedule for me.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 14:33:49 GMT -5
Jack, Exorcist ... i don't even understand your reply. of course georgetown history didn't begin in 97-98. what does that have to do with anything? i was at georgetown from 98-02 and our program was a shell of its former self; a once great program that wasn't garnering much respect from students, local media or so-called experts. nor did we deserve any given our performance on the court. who cares what could have been for the 97-98 team; it was 16-15 with 12 losses in conference and lost in the second round of the NIT. from that season until when JTIII arrived we had one trip to the sweet 16, and even that was kind of a fluke since we played a 15 seed in the second round which had upset 2 seed iowa state. georgetown had fallen into disrepair. but that's a digression. its totally fair for us to critique our ooc schedule this year. we aren't playing any good teams outside of memphis. this might not be such a bad thing in most years, but given the big east's inability to beat anyone that's really good out of conference, our conference rpi is going to suffer. i trust JTII as much as anyone else, but the fact is that when it comes to tournament time, we may get a worse seed that our title contender brethren because of our lack of marquee games in november and december. Saying that Georgetown was a "joke" and a "has-been" for my senior year is fighting words. They were on a downward slope, but claiming has-been status is tough. Now for the second point, I'm not knocking on wood, but I did just knock on some paper. If Georgetown wins the Big East regular season and one or two games in the BET, they will be a contender for a #1 seed. CBS will show GU and lots of HB fans at Fast Break, looking worried. When they do this, they will put up the record and key wins. Two will be Alabama and Michigan (maybe Old Dominion if they do well). One may be Memphis. A few others will be Big East wins. Then we come to the record. Assuming GU wins against Radford, American, and Fordham and a loss to Memphis, that puts the nonconference record at 10-1. If they win the regular season, let's put their record at 13-5 (I'd doubt that anyone wins the BE with a 12-6 record). Add one win in the BET and one loss. Is Georgetown, a Big East regular season champion at 23-7, in the mix? Yes, especially considering that GU was in the mix for a #1 seed last year with essentially the same credentials. Is the Memphis game important? Kind of, because it's really our one shot for a good OOC win (though I reiterate that, with schedule-making a few years out the way it is, this really isn't anyone's fault). But I can't see denying a GU team that tears through the Big East, finishes 15-3, and wins the BET (on their way to a 28-4 record) a #1 seed because we scheduled Virginia Tech rather than Bill and Mary or Florida State rather than Jacksonville. College basketball allows the cream to rise over the chaff (sorry for the mixed metaphor). In the end, a few teams will be in the mix. I'm confident that GU will be there. Relax. Breathe. All will be OK.
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Post by capcenterhoya on Dec 11, 2007 14:38:36 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just frustrated we are not playing Duke this year. In my lifetime, the two biggest OOC home games I've attended have both been Georgetown wins against Duke.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 11, 2007 14:53:27 GMT -5
Just because the schedule makes sense from JTIII's perspective does not mean it is acceptable from a fan's perspective. As a follower of the team for MANY years, I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than playing and winning big games out of conference. Sure, it may not affect the ultimate outcome of the season, but ultimately a game is a game. Whether it is played in March or December, I'm going to watch it and be excited be about it. Would any fan honestly rather watch us play Jacksonville than Florida State (a team I know was looking for a top opponent pretty late in the scheduling process)? ... I think EVERY fan should be upset about this year's schedule. While I admit some naivete regarding the scheduling process, I am sure Georgetown could have gotten some better opponents if that was their goal. A couple of possible ways to go with this one, but what I'll stick with at the moment is, as soon as ticket sales stop trending upwards at 10-30% per year (as has been the case over the last three years), it's tough to argue that all (or even most) fans find this unacceptable. Next year, we should have Memphis at home and Duke on the road to anchor the schedule. I'd guessthat if we had subbed in Duke for Michigan this year (and/or if Ronald Steele hadn't taken a redshirt), there would be exceptionally few complaints about our schedule. So we're talking about the difference of one marquee game. Because honestly, there's not a whole lot of room to add more marquee games without the opposite problem, of people (mostly students) complaining that those marquee home games are played during the roughly 50% of the pre-conference season in which students are out of town for Thanksgiving or Winter Break. Is this the ideal schedule? Probably not. But "unacceptable" and a total blasting of the schedule is tough to support. On EDIT: Reading your above post makes me understand a little more where you're coming from. And I think we'd all be happy beating Duke every year.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 11, 2007 15:15:02 GMT -5
THB -- I think you make some great points. This year seems particularly weak from a season ticket holders' standpoint (in terms of marquee matchups) because even if Steele were healthy, our two major OOC games were still on the road. This is the first I've heard of the Duke game next year. Are we renewing our home-and-home with them? Will my soon-to-be Duke alum wife and I be tested as newlyweds (wedding is in October 2008)? If so, perhaps casualhoya can post the odds on that wedding lasting beyond the first three or four months.
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Post by redskins12820 on Dec 11, 2007 15:29:39 GMT -5
I would like to play in the non-conference tournaments. Not great for the fans because they aren't home games, but they give the team national exposure, are challenging, and prepare the team for playing on neutral courts in march
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 15:36:24 GMT -5
I would venture to say that not many teams in the country schedule teams like Old Dominion in their gym. yo seriously none of us think jt3 is anything less than the best coach around and none of us think our Hoyas are just going to tank come big east play.. we're all fans, we all know how good this team is and we are all extremely excited for the huge games come jan and feb. that being said it does not mean we are not allowed to question what is undoubtedly one of the easiest OOC schedules around for elite teams in the country. Lets look at other top teams schedules and teams that have received votes in either poll at some point during the year (granted not the most reliable way to measure schedule strength but nonetheless a convenient one).. in particular pay attention to the number of killer road games, UNC: Davidson, @byu, @ohio State, @kentucky (Note: odu is not the same as @byu,@osu,@uk) Kansas: Arizona, @usc, @boston College Duke: Illinois, @marquette, Wisconsin, Davidson, @ Pittsburgh Washington St. : @ Gonzaga ....(weak sauce, and will pay for it in the Pac-10) UCLA: Michigan State, Texas, Davidson Marquette: Oklahoma State, Duke, @ Wisconsin Michigan State: @ucla, North Carolina State, @byu, Texas Texas: Tennessee, @ucla, @michigan State, Wisconsin, St.Mary's ...Georgetown: @ Memphis These are all of the top ten teams in the AP poll with the exception of Memphis, for obvious reasons (CUSA), and each of them plays in a power conference which alone would give plenty of tough games to get a high seed in the NCAA, yet their schedules still include atleast 3 very tough OOC games and a number of difficult road tasks. While Norfolk was certainly a hostile environment (i was there) its not the same as playing a top 25 , or even top 40, team play on their home court - no matter how hostile the crowd. Seriously yal take off the blinders and watch some college basketball, top 10 teams are playing quality opponents EVERY WEEK in this new age of college basketball. And no, i would not say that we learn as much from a home game against clearly inferior fairfield in which we came out lackadaisical and obviously did not play with 100% effort as texas did when they traveled to Pauley Pavillion to play a neck and neck game against one of the best teams in the country or even as much as Marquette did with their recent hard fought win in Madison. If nothing else this should demonstrate that our relatively weak OOC schedule is definitely a noticeable reality about our team this year and is certainly worthy of bringing up for discussion without being accused of questioning JT3's worth as a head coach and without being accused of being a hoya-heretic. to say oh we are winning so the fans have nothing to complain about except this is is stupid.. look who we are winning against .. and yes... if we were losing to jacksonville and fairfield, there would def be larger concerns but we aren't, so chill.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 15:53:08 GMT -5
thanks for putting this up. it's clear we have the weakest schedule of the supposed title contenders and that coupled with a weakened big east may impact our seeding. and i have to agree with others that winning a big non-conference game is more exciting and more memorable than beating a team we're going to play every year(except maybe syracuse). beating uconn was great last year, but that's only because we had a decade long losing streak to them and it helped us clinch the outright conference title. i can't wait until the 22nd. go hoyas!!!
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 11, 2007 15:55:30 GMT -5
I'm not questioning anyone's right to question, but I'm not sure how home games against 3-5 Davidson are so much more impressive than roadies at ODU, Memphis and (for all intents and purposes) 'bama, plus two extra league games.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 11, 2007 15:58:52 GMT -5
UNC: Davidson, @byu, @ohio State, @kentucky Davidson is not good. all of last year and this year they haven't beat a team with an RPI 1-100. they play teams close, but they've never won a good game. @byu shouldn't count for their schedule because they weren't predicited to be good In my mind you only count teams that you scheduled thinking they'd be good. ohio st was not their doing they were asigned that game so they shouldn't get credit for it since they didn't have a choice in the matter. @kentucky-have you seen kentucky?
Kansas: Arizona, @usc, @boston College
Duke: Illinois, @marquette,Wisconsin, Davidson,@ Pittsburgh
if we're including illinois you should count alabama for us game at MSG not @ pitt no matter what anyduke fan tries to tell you.
Washington St. : @ Gonzaga ....(weak sauce, and will pay for it in the Pac-10)
UCLA: Michigan State, Texas, Davidson
Marquette: Oklahoma State, Duke, @ Wisconsin same thing with illinois
Michigan State: @ucla, North Carolina State, @byu, Texas should not get credit for a game liek BYU before the season they looked no better than an @ ODU it turned out to be a lot better, but you can credit them for that since they didn't know that when they put thier schedule together.
Texas: Tennessee, @ucla, @michigan State, Wisconsin, St.Mary's
see BYU
...Georgetown: @ Memphis Should add @alabama at least of course by my own logic they shouldn't count since we were assigned the game by the league.
just my opinion. you cann argue davidson i guess and just like i don't give teams credit for scheduling games that turn out better than they thought they'd be i don't penalize them for games that don't pan out like Wisconsin and NCstate
o
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 16:00:13 GMT -5
It's not tougher than Memphis. But have you seen Davidson play? Clearly one of the best mid majors in the country this year. Their 3-5 comes includes a 4 point loss @unc, a 6 point loss @ Duke and a 12 point loss (in which they were leading by double digits in the 2nd half) @ucla. So yes, in my opinion, they are better than ODU and Bama, two teams which , though they looked fairly impressive against us, have proved absolutely nothing this year - look at what they've done.
Bama - Has Beaten Troy, Mercer, Southern Miss, SE Louisiana and Nicholls State.. teams nowhere near ncaa calibur .. oh and they lost to belmont.
ODU has beaten SC State, Toledo, Iona, Georgia State, Maryland-East Shore.. same deal.
Also, the fact is that Illinois, Ok St, UK, OSU etc. received votes in polls at some point during the season - in almost every case it was before losing to these ELITE teams. Bama has not even been close and I will venture to say wont gain a vote all year. Look at their season so far and then talk. Also dont nitpick- look at the big picture.. it says something.
I understand your point with BYU, St.Mary's etc. but im not so much looking at how much the AD/Head Coach is as at fault (which is I guess how most people interpreted this thread) but at how hard their schedules are and whether ours is a cause for concern.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 16:05:48 GMT -5
it's a good point, but if that's the case, then you have to include osu, kentucky and davidson back on the list of good choices because they were expected to be good this year. all three were ranked in the top 32 and expected to make the dance. byu also got votes, but then again, so did odu, but fewer than byu. yikes, i really should do some work.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 11, 2007 16:06:47 GMT -5
Oh, come on. I agree that our schedule is not the strongest, but "scheduling" Davidson at home or in a neutral floor is nowhere near as good as going to Old Dominion. Think about it, I think ODU was like 46-4 at home until they played us. Part of the reason for that is because no one good will go there to play them. You cant say that Davidson is a much better mid major than ODU. They look the part of it this year, but that's not a scheduling thing. ODU was 40 something in the RPI last year ! That is better than more than half the big east teams.
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