SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 11, 2007 3:08:15 GMT -5
When last year we had to come back from double digits three times to make the Final Four, win in overtime and on a last second controversial shot, I'm not sure why anyone would pass up a chance just to get a tiny bit better.
More importantly, what's the downside of scheduling better? It's not like anyone is requesting a John Chaney-esque murderous slate. You denigrate the potential benefits of scheduling better but fail to present any reason why scheduling Jacksonville serves any purpose. I realize the difficulties of scheduling which is why my comments were hardly phrased as an indictment, but I'm not quite sure why you are defending a game that was over before it started.
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 5:15:12 GMT -5
For this team, it may not matter so much. We are full with senior leadership who have played in huge games and know to expect in those circumstances. However, that will not always be the case which is why a few higher profile games in the OOC might be helpful for future younger teams.
Also, Seeding will not be an issue with a team as good as we are and a conference as tough as we play in. If we are only looking at things in terms of a NCAA resume - our schedule makes sense, considering the number of ranked teams we play in conference play.
However, if JT3 really considers the OOC as a preseason, we should not be concerned with getting as many easy W's as possible. Rather we should make it a point to play the toughest opponents we can in order to properly prepare us for the gauntlet that is the Big East. It's hard to learn much from a 30 point win over Jacksonville. A 5 win to say Vandy in Nashville or even a 5 point loss to say Kansas at the phone booth would teach us much more and boost our performance come "regular season" - The Big East.
Forgive me if I am wrong but that is the only point of a preseason right? To prepare you for the regular season? W's L's and Margin of Victory mean nothing during preseason, atleast last time I checked.
As to whether looking at the OOC schedule as a "preseason" is the best way of approaching the issue- that's a whole nother debate.
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 11, 2007 5:28:58 GMT -5
Also, for an example of how playing tougher OOC opponents helps us, think about how much we have learned about this year's team to this point, through seven games? Relatively little. Perhaps that we have been able to keep our cool and pull away in close games against very mediocre opponents but not much more. Now compare this to how much we will learn about our team in one game ,on December 22nd, and you see exactly why playing tougher opponents before the big east helps out in the long run. If you don't quite buy this, wait until December 22nd, and then see if you do.
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Locker
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Post by Locker on Dec 11, 2007 6:49:29 GMT -5
If we're comparing this season to last, don't forget that we have two extra in-conference games this time around. Makes a big difference.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 8:12:01 GMT -5
We have not played a team that has received a single vote in either poll all year long. With the exception of Memphis, we will not play one until 3 games into the big east season against UConn. Cause for concern once we hit big east play or not? So far the national media seems to think so. What do y'al think? (Note I didnt take a stance im just asking what you guys think so dont yell at me like you always do) My last year at Georgetown was 97-98. Our nonconference schedule was Georgia State, Morgan State, Wake Forest (at Springfield, MA), Cleveland State, Bethune-Cookman, St. Leo, Southern-New Orleans, and Memphis. The year before that, it was Cleveland State, Alabama State, DePaul, UMass, Delaware State, St. Leo, Morgan State, Pacific (in Las Vegas), and Memphis. The year before that, when we last made the Elite 8 before last year, it was the Preseason NIT, Southern-New Orleans, Sacramento State, St. Francis, Morgan State, Duquesne, St. Leo, and Memphis. In other words, stop yer whinin'. None of the teams we have on the schedule for OOC are very good (excepting Memphis, who's a final four contender). But none are exceptionally bad and we're playing a fair number on the road (cough, Syracuse, cough, Duke, cough). The schedule's about a C, and it seems to be giving the team experience on the road and the ability to improve things against easier competition where the consequences of failure aren't dire. EDIT - Before someone complains about the last sentence, remember that Macklin didn't play many minutes in a close game against Alabama. Things like giving Rivers the ability to shoot threes and giving Wright and Freeman more time is possible in easy games because III wants to win. It also allows us the ability to try out new offenses with the ability to switch to the "give it to Roy" approach if shots aren't falling. When we play Memphis, I doubt that III will try as many things as he did against Jacksonville. When you're trying to win, you don't experiment.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 11, 2007 8:21:32 GMT -5
For this team, it may not matter so much. We are full with senior leadership who have played in huge games and know to expect in those circumstances. That very fact is why the Hoyas should have had a better OOC schedule. You put together a weak OOC schedule (IMO) for teams that are inexperienced and not all that talented.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 11, 2007 8:27:48 GMT -5
We have not played a team that has received a single vote in either poll all year long. With the exception of Memphis, we will not play one until 3 games into the big east season against UConn. Cause for concern once we hit big east play or not? So far the national media seems to think so. What do y'al think? (Note I didnt take a stance im just asking what you guys think so dont yell at me like you always do) My last year at Georgetown was 97-98. Our nonconference schedule was Georgia State, Morgan State, Wake Forest (at Springfield, MA), Cleveland State, Bethune-Cookman, St. Leo, Southern-New Orleans, and Memphis. The year before that, it was Cleveland State, Alabama State, DePaul, UMass, Delaware State, St. Leo, Morgan State, Pacific (in Las Vegas), and Memphis. The year before that, when we last made the Elite 8 before last year, it was the Preseason NIT, Southern-New Orleans, Sacramento State, St. Francis, Morgan State, Duquesne, St. Leo, and Memphis. In other words, stop yer whinin'. No. That's like saying we should not voice our disappointment if the offense doesn't look good for long stretches during the season because JT's teams looked even worse on offense. We all know JT's scheduling was horrible. So while implying that III's scheduling is better may be correct in the end does that say much? There should be 4 top notch OOC opponets each season and by top notch I don't mean they have to be ranked but I think they should be high majors who one could expect to be top 120 in the RPI at worst.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Dec 11, 2007 9:17:07 GMT -5
However, if JT3 really considers the OOC as a preseason, we should not be concerned with getting as many easy W's as possible. Rather we should make it a point to play the toughest opponents we can in order to properly prepare us for the gauntlet that is the Big East. It's hard to learn much from a 30 point win over Jacksonville. A 5 win to say Vandy in Nashville or even a 5 point loss to say Kansas at the phone booth would teach us much more and boost our performance come "regular season" - The Big East. Forgive me if I am wrong but that is the only point of a preseason right? To prepare you for the regular season? W's L's and Margin of Victory mean nothing during preseason, atleast last time I checked. If Fairfield was ranked in the top 25, I guess you would consider that game just about the best thing ever, given how tough of a game it was. But, take away that ranking, and that game was just a waste, huh? Never mind the valuable lessons learned and experience gained? It's beyond ludicrous to suggest that III is scheduling pansies to get easy Ws. It's one thing to argue for games against higher ranked teams for the excitement, national spotlight, potential $, etc. But I don't think JTIII will need to check in over here to help figure out the best way to prepare the team for the Big East. Maybe he has a suggestion box set up in McDounough and you can drop him a note though, 'cause he sure seems like he needs the help.
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Dec 11, 2007 9:39:43 GMT -5
If Fairfield was ranked in the top 25, I guess you would consider that game just about the best thing ever, given how tough of a game it was. But, take away that ranking, and that game was just a waste, huh? Never mind the valuable lessons learned and experience gained? It's beyond ludicrous to suggest that III is scheduling pansies to get easy Ws. It's one thing to argue for games against higher ranked teams for the excitement, national spotlight, potential $, etc. But I don't think JTIII will need to check in over here to help figure out the best way to prepare the team for the Big East. Maybe he has a suggestion box set up in McDounough and you can drop him a note though, 'cause he sure seems like he needs the help. THANK YOU!!! I was waiting for someone to say something along these lines. All of this whining about scheduling and we are the #4 team in the country! The national media is not talking about our weak scheduling because they know that we don't have to PROVE to anyone that we are a final four contender. Even if we lose to Memphis, which I don't think will happen, all we have to do is go 10-8 in the Big East and WE'RE IN THE TOURNAMENT. If we beat Memphis and finish in the top 3 of the Big East, we'll be anywhere between a 1-5 seed in the tournament. Let's keep things in perspective here! Post of the week candidate!
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 11, 2007 9:48:50 GMT -5
Just bear in mind that one of the things you do to schedule good OOC games is to play powerhouse schools that are perennially good or that just had good tourney run - like say, Ohio State. Oops, they suck this year. Sometimes, you just cant do anything about the fact that Michigan and Alabama suck. I would venture to say that not many teams in the country schedule teams like Old Dominion in their gym. Lots of teams dont even play a road game until 8-10 games in the season. We did a fair job of scheduling. Its not great, but Memphis will be enough.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 10:21:53 GMT -5
My last year at Georgetown was 97-98. Our nonconference schedule was Georgia State, Morgan State, Wake Forest (at Springfield, MA), Cleveland State, Bethune-Cookman, St. Leo, Southern-New Orleans, and Memphis. The year before that, it was Cleveland State, Alabama State, DePaul, UMass, Delaware State, St. Leo, Morgan State, Pacific (in Las Vegas), and Memphis. The year before that, when we last made the Elite 8 before last year, it was the Preseason NIT, Southern-New Orleans, Sacramento State, St. Francis, Morgan State, Duquesne, St. Leo, and Memphis. In other words, stop yer whinin'. No. That's like saying we should not voice our disappointment if the offense doesn't look good for long stretches during the season because JT's teams looked even worse on offense. We all know JT's scheduling was horrible. So while implying that III's scheduling is better may be correct in the end does that say much? There should be 4 top notch OOC opponets each season and by top notch I don't mean they have to be ranked but I think they should be high majors who one could expect to be top 120 in the RPI at worst. Fair point. However, I think that we're really beating up GU unfairly. In particular, the level of scheduling of our peer competitors (thank you, Charles E. Pirtle!) is remarkably similar. KU's OOC schedule is Louisiana-Monroe, UMKC, Washburn, Northern Arizona, Arizona, Florida Atlantic, USC, Eastern Washington, DePaul, Ohio, Georgia Tech, Miami (OH), Yale, Boston College, and Loyola (MD). UNC's OOC schedule is Davidson, Iona, South Carolina State, Old Dominion, BYU, Ohio State, Kentucky, UPenn, Rutgers, Nicholls State, UC-Santa Barbara, Nevada, Valparaiso, Kent State, and North Carolina-Asheville. Both play in conferences similar in power to the Big East. Both also have sixteen conference games. Both expect to challenge for a national championship. GU was scheduled for a game last year by the Big East against a potential SEC contender that was decimated by injuries. The Michigan game was scheduled when it was believed Amaker could lead the team to the NCAAs. Even with that, the level of scheduling is approximately the same. No, we're not Memphis. This is because, on March 1st, Memphis will be playing at Southern Miss while GU is playing at Marquette.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 11, 2007 10:45:00 GMT -5
i disagree that we haven't learned a lot about this team yet. we've learned jerrimiah can stroke the three and will be on offensive threat as well as a defensive stopper. We've learned our major weakness right now is freethrow shooting, and that makclin and ewing are the two biggest culprits. we've learned that austin and chris are ready to play and will contribute a lot this season. We've learned that dajuan and jessie have improved their games and will be a big part of what we do this year. we've learned that jon's in a bit of a slump and for us to be truly elite he'll have to snap out of it. We haven't learned that much about roy i'll give you that. but i think roy will be roy and we generally know what to expect there.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 11, 2007 10:55:57 GMT -5
Where are people coming up with "beating up on GU unfairly" and that people commenting on the schedule are "whining"?
The commentary against the schedule hasn't been vociferous, except for MCI's post, and he's always a bit over the top. It's like asking RDF to tone it down. And no one is whining. Everyone knows we're #4.
Seriously, between this thread and every other one with concerns, is no one allowed to voice a complaint or concern? I disagreed with the original poster that he would get "yelled" at for no reason in my first post, but the calls of "whining" and "beating up" is just silly.
And no, having the #4 team doesn't create immunity on something as unrelated to rank as scheduling through 7 games.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Dec 11, 2007 11:00:28 GMT -5
in 97-98 georgetown was also a joke-a has-been. now, it's perfectly legitimate to complain about a ooc that is not very good. and if you look at the big east this year, no one has a marquee non-conference win. it's really up to us to beat memphis and pitt to beat duke. otherwise the big east is looking at being the fifth best conference behind the pac-10, big 12 acc, and the big ten. i've said this before, but there's no team on our schedule that worries me except memphis. while that's a testament to how good we are, its also an indictment of our schedule. i'm sure III wanted to upgrade, but he wasn't able to. and it will matter for our seeding and our location down the road. especially because this year's elite 8 match-up site is in north carolina. all things being equal, i'd rather not have to play unc in a home game. or anyone else with that much on the line, assuming we get that far.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Dec 11, 2007 11:32:34 GMT -5
Cool - I didn't realize Pitt played Duke this year. Good game to watch -- Dec 20 at MSG. However, I can't see them beating Duke, so if you really feel that a marquee non-conference win is necessary, it will probably be up to the Hoyas.
As far as the conference rankings, well given the performances to-date, the Big East looks like the fifth best conference right now. Call me a heretic, but really, Big East teams haven't exactly been tearing up their quality non-conference opponents.
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Gold Hoya
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Post by Gold Hoya on Dec 11, 2007 11:50:08 GMT -5
With the new 18-game schedule, our OOC "marquee-ness" is hurt by the fact that this team was not in any of the 3-games-for-the-price-of-1 tournaments. Why didn't we get into one? We might be a little cornered.
These tournaments are capped at one team per conference. Maui invites go out several years in advance - the last two reps, DePaul and Marquette, were old C-USA teams that served as blocks. The Alaska tournament has really gone downhill, so the level competition probably isn't worth the cost.
Then you have the early-rounds-at-home tournaments like Preseason NIT and the CBE Classic. Which Big East team fits the profile for these tournaments better -- Syracuse, which controls its home arena, sells 20k tickets no matter the opponent, and draws a ton of Madison Square Garden ticket sales -- or Georgetown, where arena dates are pending the Wizards, Capitals, concerts, and circus, we have a history of selling less than 10k tickets for no-name opponents, and we have fewer potential ticket buyers in both NYC and KC? Remember these tourneys are businesses, and inviting Georgetown looks like the weaker business decision.
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Gold Hoya
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Post by Gold Hoya on Dec 11, 2007 11:54:05 GMT -5
That said, I'm still not a fan of 250 RPI and up except during Finals and maybe the first game. Jacksonville and Radford are your finals games.
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 11, 2007 12:12:14 GMT -5
We never should have dropped St. Leo. That was a rivalry steeped in tradition
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 11, 2007 12:17:24 GMT -5
I think our OOC schedule is okay. I'm excited that we are playing American and Fordham back-to-back over New Year's Weekend. Those are two games many of us have been clamoring for for years (one a local, the other a Jesuit peer), and they are good choices. Other improved games include William and Mary and Old Dominion over the likes of Georgia State and Southern-New Orleans. Playing teams from a local conference that has demonstrated an ability to win in the NCAAs as well as beat us at home are good choices. I hope we continue to play CAA teams, and hopefully mix in George Mason at some point. We have clearly improved the lower and middle quality of our OOC, both in terms of substance and in terms of interest. That we take those games on the road makes them all the better.
I do agree with MCIGuy that we need to work on another major conference opponent or two, and I disagree with those who suggest our schedule matches up with UNC or Kansas. Quite honestly, we're lacking at least one more major (i.e. perennial top 25 team) opponent. Going forward, as a "top ten" team, we should strive to have two marquee matchups every year -- one on the road and one at home. Perhaps JTIII held off this year because he was unsure about how the move to 18 conference games would impact the team -- and that makes a little sense since it means we lost potentially available dates to play in January or February. I'd like to see at least one more big game added to the schedule next year.
Do I think that the schedule will impact our seeding? Possibly. But the best thing we can do is win or lose games. Win our conference regular season. Win our conference tournament. What we do in January, February and March always matters a lot more than what we did in November and December. It's WAY too early to know whether our nonconference schedule could actually have an impact, and there are many things that should be happening between now and then to make it basically irrelevant.
Play hard. Win games. Win the conference. That's how you get a #1 seed.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 11, 2007 13:02:45 GMT -5
in 97-98 georgetown was also a joke-a has-been. Georgetown basketball history did not begin in the last four years.
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