Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2005 8:23:01 GMT -5
Hi guys!!
I am not as upset as many of you are. Remember, our team has had slightly more than one year with the Princeton offense. It is going to take until sometime NEXT year for the system to function the way it should. I recorded it and watched it again this morning. I can't tellyou of the potential back door cuts that were not made.
The once the team truly understands and can execute the "system" they will make MINCEMAT of the defense that Illinois used. Even in the first half we had a few wide open backdoors, but couldn't finish (Roy dropped a pass, Wallace looked around before putting the shot up, etc.) In the Princeton system, you want the defenders to play in your face. It is perfect, because when you have all your players on the periphery, it takes only one hesitation, or slight pick and someone is free for a back door.
I remember several years ago, Princeton went up to Syracuse (Syracuse was ranked in the top 10 at the time) and was confronted with the same type of defense. Princeton absolutely destroyed them with backdoors and 3 point shots in the first 5 minutes. Boeheim quickly switched to a zone and Syracuse won easily.
BOTTOM LINE
Give this team time. This system takes a long time to play properly. Trust me. In about 2-3 years, this type of defense won't bother the Hoyas at all.
Jerry
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jackdog74
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by jackdog74 on Dec 9, 2005 8:36:21 GMT -5
I'm with you Jerry. I'll take a 10 point loss, on the road, in an intimidating building (you all remember what happened to Wake Forest last year, right?), with a well coached team, and an All-American PG. There were some bad plays, but let's remember this team's minutes are still dominated by sophomores and one who is getting unfairly beaten up (Crawford) who did not get a whole lot of run last year. Don't get me wrong, that play hurt, but I'm sure we could find a lot more. Illinois' defense was great last night and in the first half, we were just not hitting shots -- there were some open shots in the early going that did not hit. It happens on the road against a Top 10 team with VETERAN senior and junior leadership. When you have guys like Augustine and Brown leading the way, it takes a ton of pressure off of the other guys and they will end up playing better -- especially in their own building.
And let's remember -- we held them to 58 points. If Brandon hits 2 threes, if Jeff hits one more free throw and DJ hits a three, we're into OT. We've come a long way in one year (let alone two). This team IS ready for primetime (which I did not feel after the Navy and JMU games). I really believe we'll be fine and in the tourney (RPI = 15. 15!?!?!?! SWEET!!!!!!). Let's give BB the encouragement he needs (a game like Fairfield may be just what the doctor ordered) and fine tune ourselves for conference play. HOYA SAXA!!!! BEAT SUcks and UCONNvict.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 9, 2005 8:51:31 GMT -5
Let's all have some perspective guys.
Let's try not to jump off the nearest bridge, we are 3-1 on the road and this game will help our NCAA prospects, we are playing BCS conference teams on the road and we won one so this scheduling experiment has worked. I think we will all feel better with some good offensive performances over the next 3.
Don't give up on this team!
It's Dec 9th for god's sake and we lost to the potential Big 10 champs who have beaten a young but extremely talented UNC team at Home and blew out a surprisingly solid RU by 20+ on a neutral court.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 9, 2005 9:17:46 GMT -5
I agree with most of the points here and I'm not trying to make excuses, but I think 007 will back me up here when I say that the refereeing was horrible. It wasn't what lost us the game, but there were a number of ridiculous calls / no calls that went against us. My working theory is that when it's obvious that a ref made a horrible call, the network won't show the replay (unless it's under review). There were at least 5-10 plays where everyone wanted to know why a call was made / wasn't made and the announcers ignored it and there was no replay. And again, I'm not making excuses--I agree that we didn't play well enough to win this game, but I also think that those refs were just plain horrible. Nah, and see it's almost not worth it to bring it up when you point out--rightly--that we didn't play well enough to win the game. More to the point, I think the closest we were in the second half was seven points for one possession. If the game had been closer, come down to free throws, etc...I think then you start worrying about the officials. But I don't think they were bad at all. I know there's a tendency to yell at every call when watching a frustrating game live (heck, you and Kurt yelled incredulously at the TV for a foul call that wasn't even shown on camera ;D), but typically the officials do at least an okay job. But maybe I'm biased towards officials cause I was a soccer referee for six years and I'm used to being on the other side of criticism. For my money, that was prob. the best referee crew (by reputation I mean) in college basketball last night. I think Ed Hightower's the best in the NCAA, and Ted Hillary's not far behind and neither is Jim Burr. Says nothing about performance on an individual night, of course, but still we had a decent crew who know what they're doing. I think one of the probs. we have that makes it seem like a lot of "no calls" go against us (and it seems to be the "no calls" argument that comes up more than the ticky-tack foul argument) is that we're not as aggressive than our opponents sometimes. Typically, aggressive moves to the basket and/or post moves result in the most foul calls. Well, we couldn't feed the post much at all last night, and we've over the past several years struggled to get good dribble penetration leading to attempts at the rim. People complained about one play in the VC Lounge when Brandon used the backhanded dribble on the baseline and short armed a layup. Well, the problem there was that he came up short and essentially leaned into the contact at a...well, Kama Sutra Shot was a good term for that...you're just not gonna get a foul called on that. And all the offensive rebounds we give up where people scream FOUL...it has more to do with poor technique and Jeff/Roy being in the air simultaneously than anyone going over the back or pushing off. And I know a foul is a foul regardless, but I'll say this again--I don't like how it's coming to pass that Georgetown fans are starting more often to complain about no-calls on physical play. Wasn't that something we used to be known for--physical play and intimidation? If it's the physical stuff that's gonna be allowed--and hey, we know BE Refs, it will be--then let's get down there in the scrum and fight it out!! Screw no calls, go kick some butt.
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FOTP
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,435
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Post by FOTP on Dec 9, 2005 9:18:13 GMT -5
I'm pretty bummed we didn't compete better in the 1st half, but I was proud of the guys (especially Jeff Green) in the 2nd half for fighting.
We are a tough team, but just not super talented. At the end of the day we are an above average team that should win more than we lose in the Big East and we learned a lot by playing these road games.
The key to even playing these games is that this is what gets us into the tournament when we go 9-7 in the league. It's that simple.
Let's go 8-2 before conference play and go from there.
17-9 going into the big east tournament with this schedule should get us in the dance...
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hoyadrummer
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Class of 2000
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Post by hoyadrummer on Dec 9, 2005 9:20:51 GMT -5
That was UGLY. A motion offense actually requires people to MOVE!!! My Grandmother makes better cuts than they were last night. Its not that we lost to a ranked team on the road by 14 points, its HOW we lost to them. We played like complete crap when it mattered and then Illinois let us hang around after that. I don't know how many more times I can watch us be completely impotent on offense to start a game. Damn.
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HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 9, 2005 9:38:13 GMT -5
we let illinois manhandle us from start to finish, not only on the boards but they pushed our offensive sets near the 3 pt line every possession. someone has to take the ball to the basket when teams pressure us like that. this passing the ball around the perimter for 30 seconds and then heaving a 3 doesn't work. jeff is the only one that played aggressively on offense and that wasn't until after halftime.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Dec 9, 2005 9:50:21 GMT -5
As I said, our gyards can't guard and our frontline can't board. I think the second can be worked on but not the first. Zone may be the best way to make up for this deficiency.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2005 10:08:36 GMT -5
Change defense???We held Illinois high powered offense to 58 points. Not bad.
Hi Hoyadrummer-I disagree. There was plenty of motion and movement, just not the right kind. You need to give this some time. Just remember, that objectively, Illinois has more talent than we do. We also played them in their place where they never lose.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 9, 2005 10:21:24 GMT -5
I still haven't had a chance to watch the replay closely but I'll bet that Illinois' defense had a lot to do with the stagnation of the Hoyas' offense (at least in the first half). Aside from defensive rebounding and guarding the 3 (both things III cited in his post-game comments as points of emphasis for improvement), it sounds like the defense wasn't all that bad statistically. Holding Illinois to 32% FG shooting when they average 47% and to 58 points when they average 74.2 ON THEIR HOME COURT where they'd won 42 straight non-confernence games is not bad defense. Of course the obvious lapses above were killer, but they might not have been had the first half offense not been of the deer-in-the-headlights variety. I don't see many people giving Illinois credit for that. Oddly enough I fiind myself agreeing with Big Dog's view that this was a 'gravy' game. A win would have been unexpected and fantastic. A loss is disappointing but they did not get blown off the court and there were some positives and things to build on.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 9, 2005 10:40:10 GMT -5
Our defense was terrific, they shot worse than we did. The desire was there, the offense is the key problem.
Everyone has rightly pointed out our guards are the problem on defense, they cannot stop penetration. This forces Green and Hibbert to challenge the shot rather than positioning for a rebound. It is that simple. The rebounding will not get better until we play a team with guards that are perimeter focused or we stop penetration. Playing zone may alleviate some of the guard issues but not the rebounding issue. It is difficult to think of a team that plays zone and rebounds well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2005 10:47:23 GMT -5
Our defense was terrific, they shot worse than we did. The desire was there, the offense is the key problem. Everyone has rightly pointed out our guards are the problem on defense, they cannot stop penetration. This forces Green and Hibbert to challenge the shot rather than positioning for a rebound. It is that simple. The rebounding will not get better until we play a team with guards that are perimeter focused or we stop penetration. Playing zone may alleviate some of the guard issues but not the rebounding issue. It is difficult to think of a team that plays zone and rebounds well. I disagree. The rebounding was pretty weak all last season, penetrating guards or not. The team suffered against physical inside play as well.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 9, 2005 11:49:42 GMT -5
This is the WORST Half of Offensive Basketball I've EVER seen and I've been around since 1980 at age of 5. AWFUL-just flat awful basketball and when your most talented player (Jeff Green) doesn't get shots, is only getting looks from perimeter, it's not a good thing. Let's just play ball in 2nd Half and quit worrying about the "system". While I don't disagree, I submit BC from last year and WVU from two years ago as much, much worse.' Also, the offense sucked, but we win this ugly if the defense rebounds. As for the offense, St. Pete said it best -- if the defense is overcommitting, where are the cuts?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 9, 2005 11:53:10 GMT -5
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Dec 9, 2005 12:52:25 GMT -5
I didn't get a chance to read all the comments, and I didn't see the game last night, just heard the last 10 minutes in the chatroom, so my comments are to be taken with that perspective. I think it was RDF, who said we should abandon our offense, when it was not functioning in the first half. I would agree with him, if it were an NCAA game. But an early season game at their house, I think you want to work on those things that you preach and try to develop all year. This game was as much a learning experience, as anything. That being said, I was upset at the differential in rebounds, especially letting Illinois get all those offensive ones. This quote of JTIII convinces me that something will be done about this: "They did a terrific job of going after the ball and we were just watching," said Thompson, whose team had 17 more rebounds than Oregon on Saturday. "WE'LL FIX THAT (emphasis added)."
I agree with the consensus positive that Jeff has gotten his head in the game and he IS the go to guy. I was disappointed, as most, in the bad BB play. I still like what he can bring to the game, so I am not writing him off. Our D was good. Examining the box score, only Brown had good stats, Augustine, so-so, except for those rebs. Lastly, I agree that we cannot be slow out of the gate. We were in the Oregon game, but were able to turn it around. Illinois was too good a team to spot them 15 in the first half.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 9, 2005 13:52:04 GMT -5
I'll have to admit that the officiating last night was actually probably the best I've seen from a G'town game on TV in years. I think there was only two instances where I saw they messed up: 1) One jump-ball where Wallace essentially got tackled from behind at midcourt, and 2) A no-call when one of the Illinois players diving on the ground for a loose ball and obviously traveling with it. But other than that, the refs were pretty good last night. Very consistently called game; generally they let the teams go to war and put the whistles in their pockets, which I can deal with.
But as a result, we got outphysical-ed last night against a team we probably shouldn't have. That's just a result of desire (not boxing out). I don't care if Augustine is a "jumping-jack" or whatever the hell they call him; bottom line is, the only real advantage Illinois had over us in terms of athleticism was Brown's quickness vs. our guards. We lacked any kind of aggressiveness, especially in the 1st half. I was just absolutely pleading with anybody on our team to just take it to the basket for once and try to get a closer shot. It's not like we had 3-4 starters with 2 fouls each and couldn't risk a costly charge that would have forced someone to sit for a long time. At some point, somebody's got to take charge and say, "The onus is on me to stop this Illinois run before it gets worse." Nobody was willing, and (not to take away from his performance last night, but) Jeff's 2nd half showed us that we DO have somebody who can fit that bill.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 9, 2005 14:13:31 GMT -5
It is true that they missed about nine hundred over the backs and moving screens, but seeing as neither of those have been called in about twenty years, I hardly think you can pin this one on the officials.
They let the guys play. That's good enough for me.
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Post by Healy on Dec 9, 2005 15:52:40 GMT -5
We made it the game, through the snow. Took 4 1/2 hours there, and 3 1/2 back. Usually much less from western suburbs of Chicago. Jack-knifed semis crowding the ditches slowed traffic down a bit.
My impression was that this was the first game this year we played a team so fast (guards) and physical (front line). (I did not see the Vandy game.)
It caught us off-guard to start the game. Not surprising. I was very pleased with how the team kept its composure and battled every possession the last 3/4's of the game.
When the team had success last year against good teams, it was because of the same possession-by-possession approach. The ball was valued on offense, and the defensive effort was strong. I saw that last night.
Shots were missed, sure. Illinois plays defense, hard, with great athletes.
The things we needed to work on were not giving second shots, and rotating a little quicker on penetration from someone like Dee Brown. Both things are fixable with the players we have right now. Offensively, we know we can do better.
Conclusion -- I am optimistic that this team will have a good year, and will meet expectations of an NCAA bid.
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Post by 37invert on Dec 9, 2005 16:57:07 GMT -5
Here is a voice of objectivity to Hoya fans. I am from Bama and follow local players (Wallace) and their college careers.
Lack of offense being a given for both sides (other than Green for the Hoyas), this game was lost on the boards, period. Judging from last night's performance and only that, Green and possibly Hibbert are the only two palyers who could play for Illinois. Consistent ball pressure on the Hoya guards seemed to totally take them out of what offense they might have.
Good luck! It is early.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2005 17:03:01 GMT -5
Whew! Glad we got the voice of reason from someone with zero knowledge of the team, able to regurgitate everything that's been said for the last 20 hours or so!!
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