50 Greatest Hoyas of the Thompson era

[MCIGuy]

hoyachris said:

My basic answer to the above question is no, the team underachieved. Given the level of since-proven talent on the roster, a 29-8 record in A.I.’s second season was insufficient. My basic memory of the 1995-96 season is of Allen Iverson dominating the ball and reluctantly getting rid of it if an opportunity wasn’t available. Consequently the team failed to develop offensively and had difficulty winning in those games (such as the U. Mass. loss) when Allen had an off game.

Clearly AI's game was flawed. But I think the main problem for that team was that the pieces didn't fit.

During his two seasons at GU Iverson played alongside four guys who would end up with long careers in the NBA: Othella, Don Reid, Jahidi and Jerome Williams. Of the four only one I felt was a perfect fit for Iverson's game: Junk Yard Dog. Jerome was great as a garbage man who could do the dirty work, most importantly get rebounds when AI missed shots. This was a good role for Jerome when he played the four position instead of the three because Jerome wasn't much of a scorer. And there's the problem. Of the four NBA big men that Iverson teamed with at GU, only one (Othella) could be considered a true scoring threat at the college level. And at times scoring for Othella was even a chore.

A guy like Iverson is more effective playing with long, athletic players who can shoot from the perimeter and finish on the break when AI gives them the rock. Iggy is such a good fit for AI on Philly because Iverson LOVES to excite the crowd by throwing alley-oop lobs. In fact that's the one pass AI would almost always give up his own scoring oportunity for. If he has a teammate with great leaping abilities to go along with length, you can expect him to be looking for him as often as possible.

Iverson also fits well with players who can stand around the peimeter and hoist up three point attempts after AI hits them with the pass. Craig Hodges commented six years ago that Iverson should be surrounded with shooters on the floor the way he and others surrounded Jordan for the Bulls. This works well for AI because it would allow him to use his speed to blow by his defender, draw a second or possibly third defender when he gets closer to the hoop and then break the opponents' spirit by dishing out to teammates who can knock sown long jumpers all game long. It would also give Iverson a way of bailing himself out when he jumps into the air for a basket only to realize that he can't get off the shot against one of the tall trees waiting on him. Pick your poison. But in JT and Larry Brown Iverson had two coaches who were more interested in putting defenders and rebounders on the floor than they were in putting talented offensive players alongside AI.

By the time Iverson had arrived at Gtown, JT had essentially ruined Othella's offensive game by making him a 6'7 center who did the dirty work in the paint without giving him many opportunities to show off his faceup game. Plus O and AI were like oil and water in terms of playing style. Boubacar Aw? Great defender who had Iverson's back. Tough. But did you want him finishing on the fast break, going up for an alley-oop or taking an outside jumper? Nay. Jerome? Not much offnse except for putbacks (though he could handle the rock). Reid and White were not dependable on offense. John Jaques and Irvin Church were rarely dependable outside threats at GU (in terms of shooting percentage). Kevin Millen? He had about two good games during his four year run at GU.

That means that outside of a wildly inconsitent Vic Page (during his freshmen year) and an even more inconsistent Jerry Nichols, there wasn't really anyone on Gtown playing alongside Iverson who could score more than five feet away from the basket. Think about how absurd that is. And the second most consistent guy on offense during AI's tenure, Othella, was more of a plodder than an up and down guy.

This was a poorly put together team (the '94-'95 bunch) in many respects., though I won't blame JT too much since Iverson's addition came only a season earlier. When they were at their best with Page, Jerome and O (with White and Nichols off the bench) making their shots to complement Iverson, they were tough to beat. But they were vulnerable to games in which the outside shooting was average (not bad, just average) and Othella couldn't get on track.

A guy like Brandon Bowman would have been a great fit for AI. Bowman is better off as a Pippen than as a Jordan and he could have made a great "wingman" for Iverson. Others such as Gerald Riley, Samnick, Scruggs, Wesley Wilson, Jeff Green, Tony Bethel and DJ Owens would have been better co-stars alongside him than the pros he palyed with at GU. Sweets would have been a better teammate too because he could do a better job catching Iverson's passes (especially the wild ones) and would have finished in the paint better. Of course Sweets' points would have also gone down.

[happyagain]

Love the list. It's scarry how much I agree with it. Only 2 changes I feel would make. I would swap Sleepy and Reggie 2 and 3. I know it's a small change and you did say that you can see any order of 2,3,4,5 as valid but I think that Patrick and Sleepy's college careers were one step above.

My main change would be to drop Victor Page down at least 10 spots. It just seemed to me that he was the classic 20+ pt scorer that needed 25 shots to accomplish that. I think people fell in love with the glamour stats and the occational 40 foot rainbow three (truely a thing of beauty) and forgot about the airballs, bricks and passes that weren't made to wide open teamates under the hoop. Or the fact that he would always go for the spectacular steal and subsequent fastbreak that he would often give up easy baskets to the man he was guarding (ie score 23pts but give up 20). Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, maybe I see his era as the begining of the backslide in team success. Please, someone explain to me why he deserves such a high rank! I welcome the opportunity to be proven wrong and will spout his praise if such proof is given. Also, if you agree with me let me know, I can't be the only one.

[MCIGuy]

Well, he did lead the Hoyas to an unexpected win of the Western (was that what it was called) Division of the Big East his soph year and he made Big East First Team to boot. That counts for something.

[HoyaChris]

Victor Page was first team Big East as a sophomore. The only other Hoyas to make first team Big East that early in their career were Patrick, Zo, A.I. and Mike Sweetney who are respectively, 1, 4, 5, and 6 in the ranking of Greatest Hoyas of the Thompson era.

[SSHoya]

Great stuff, HoyaChris.

Brought back many many memories (I'm SFS '77).

Two corrections, one spelling and one factual:

Tom Scates not Tom Skates.

And Ralph Dalton's "drop foot" was not caused by an Achilles heel injury but due to the fact he damaged his peroneal nerve after exploding his knee (ACL and MCL is my recall). Injury to the peroneal nerve results in significant disability. There is loss of capacity to lift the foot and toes (dorsiflexion), as well as loss of the ability to evert the foot. Difficult to walk and when attempting to do so, drags the foot on the ground when bringing it forward.

Makes Ralph playing four years even more amazing.

[HoyaChris]

mciguy said:

hoyachris said:

Clearly AI's game was flawed. But I think the main problem for that team was that the pieces didn't fit.

During his two seasons at GU Iverson played alongside four guys who would end up with long careers in the NBA: Othella, Don Reid, Jahidi and Jerome Williams. Of the four only one I felt was a perfect fit for Iverson's game: Junk Yard Dog. Jerome was great as a garbage man who could do the dirty work, most importantly get rebounds when AI missed shots. This was a good role for Jerome when he played the four position instead of the three because Jerome wasn't much of a scorer. And there's the problem. Of the four NBA big men that Iverson teamed with at GU, only one (Othella) could be considered a true scoring threat at the college level. And at times scoring for Othella was even a chore.

A guy like Iverson is more effective playing with long, athletic players who can shoot from the perimeter and finish on the break when AI gives them the rock. Iggy is such a good fit for AI on Philly because Iverson LOVES to excite the crowd by throwing alley-oop lobs. In fact that's the one pass AI would almost always give up his own scoring oportunity for. If he has a teammate with great leaping abilities to go along with length, you can expect him to be looking for him as often as possible.

Iverson also fits well with players who can stand around the peimeter and hoist up three point attempts after AI hits them with the pass. Craig Hodges commented six years ago that Iverson should be surrounded with shooters on the floor the way he and others surrounded Jordan for the Bulls. This works well for AI because it would allow him to use his speed to blow by his defender, draw a second or possibly third defender when he gets closer to the hoop and then break the opponents' spirit by dishing out to teammates who can knock sown long jumpers all game long. It would also give Iverson a way of bailing himself out when he jumps into the air for a basket only to realize that he can't get off the shot against one of the tall trees waiting on him. Pick your poison. But in JT and Larry Brown Iverson had two coaches who were more interested in putting defenders and rebounders on the floor than they were in putting talented offensive players alongside AI.

By the time Iverson had arrived at Gtown, JT had essentially ruined Othella's offensive game by making him a 6'7 center who did the dirty work in the paint without giving him many opportunities to show off his faceup game. Plus O and AI were like oil and water in terms of playing style. Boubacar Aw? Great defender who had Iverson's back. Tough. But did you want him finishing on the fast break, going up for an alley-oop or taking an outside jumper? Nay. Jerome? Not much offnse except for putbacks (though he could handle the rock). Reid and White were not dependable on offense. John Jaques and Irvin Church were rarely dependable outside threats at GU (in terms of shooting percentage). Kevin Millen? He had about two good games during his four year run at GU.

That means that outside of a wildly inconsitent Vic Page (during his freshmen year) and an even more inconsistent Jerry Nichols, there wasn't really anyone on Gtown playing alongside Iverson who could score more than five feet away from the basket. Think about how absurd that is. And the second most consistent guy on offense during AI's tenure, Othella, was more of a plodder than an up and down guy.

This was a poorly put together team (the '94-'95 bunch) in many respects., though I won't blame JT too much since Iverson's addition came only a season earlier. When they were at their best with Page, Jerome and O (with White and Nichols off the bench) making their shots to complement Iverson, they were tough to beat. But they were vulnerable to games in which the outside shooting was average (not bad, just average) and Othella couldn't get on track.

A guy like Brandon Bowman would have been a great fit for AI. Bowman is better off as a Pippen than as a Jordan and he could have made a great "wingman" for Iverson. Others such as Gerald Riley, Samnick, Scruggs, Wesley Wilson, Jeff Green, Tony Bethel and DJ Owens would have been better co-stars alongside him than the pros he palyed with at GU. Sweets would have been a better teammate too because he could do a better job catching Iverson's passes (especially the wild ones) and would have finished in the paint better. Of course Sweets' points would have also gone down.

I had trouble writing the Iverson section and ultimately punted with my final paragraph. That being said I would make a couple points. First, I agree completely with your analysis of the type of players who fit best with Iverson, but I think there is a time dimension to your analysis. These are the types of players who fit best with Iverson today. A.I.'s game has matured and it is not clear to me what types of players (beyond Jerome-type go get the rebound guys) would have been best playing with him when he was at Georgetown. The interesting question for me is if he had stayed the additional year or two, would he have become better at involving his teammates? He very well might have, but that is pure speculation.

A second place where I differ is in the suggestion that Othella wasn't a good fit. While "plodder" feels a little strong, his speed was completely irrelevant on the break - most guards couldn't keep up with A.I. and as a team we never had trouble scoring on the break anyway. It was in the half court offense where we suffered and A.I. would often control the ball very deep into the shot clock without exploring other options. I think Othella was the best other option to be explored. Ironically, his best game with A.I. on the team was against Texas Tech in the East regional semi-final in his senior year where he score, I think, something like 27 points and they finally seemed to be working together well.

[SFHoya99]

On Victor, we should also remember that we never would've made the '96 Big East Final without Vic. He was incredibly talented, came up big in big games, and carried a somewhat less talented team to the NCAAs.

We made the NCAAs both years Vic was there and immediately missed them when he left.

The criticisms made of Vic are somewhat valid. That said, the same could be said of Allen Iverson (especially his freshman year). His teams underachieved, he shot too many threes, he gambled on D, and he didn't shoot well until his sophomore year.

Vic didn't take the shooting leap Iverson did, but he was an honorable mention All-American, First Team All BE, and his team won. The player who I think of when I read your description is Shenard Long. Never got the hype with him. Shenard shot a bit better, but Vic got to the line a lot more. Shenard stepped into an awful team and played defense. Vic led his team to the NCAAs.

[HoyaChris]

sshoya2 said:

Great stuff, HoyaChris.

Brought back many many memories (I'm SFS '77).

Two corrections, one spelling and one factual:

Tom Scates not Tom Skates.

And Ralph Dalton's "drop foot" was not caused by an Achilles heel injury but due to the fact he damaged his peroneal nerve after exploding his knee (ACL and MCL is my recall). Injury to the peroneal nerve results in significant disability. There is loss of capacity to lift the foot and toes (dorsiflexion), as well as loss of the ability to evert the foot. Difficult to walk and when attempting to do so, drags the foot on the ground when bringing it forward.

Makes Ralph playing four years even more amazing.

I've fixed the spelling and will amend the Dalton post later.

Were you in the same SFS I was in? I must have missed the class on dorsiflexion.

[happyagain]

I just read some of the posts that followed my original post about Victor Page, and being a man of my word....I was wrong, he does fit in the 15-20 range. The points I made above rightly keep him out of the top 15 but he deserves to be in the top third. A 16 ranking is about right. My bad.

[SSHoya]

I've fixed the spelling and will amend the Dalton post later.

"Were you in the same SFS I was in? I must have missed the class on dorsiflexion."

Unfortunately, my knowledge of knee injuries/dorsiflexion is from personal experience. I suffered the exact same injury as Ralph Dalton when I was on active duty in the Navy, but suffered no permanent damage to my peroneal nerve. I had the good fortune to sit with Ralph at the Big East Tournament a number of years ago and we compared knee injuries.