lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
|
Post by lichoya68 on Sept 25, 2005 4:24:11 GMT -5
one question how is jeff green in the thompson era unless were including both thompsons and i missed that
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
|
Post by lichoya68 on Sept 25, 2005 4:26:26 GMT -5
sorry i just went back to the top and answered my own question about whats included in the thompson era... and didnot want to foget that gerry pyles story even tho pretty sure he wasnt that era
|
|
|
Post by NTAMM on Sept 25, 2005 11:49:41 GMT -5
HoyaChris, your post work is simply the best material on the history Hoya basketball I’ve ever read – when compared to any source. Hoya basketball has certainly been entertaining and you do an excellent job in capturing that. If I may comment, I really appreciate your comments on David Wingate. Wingate, along with Boubacar Aw are two of the most underrated Hoyas. Outside of Iverson, Wingate was probably the most fleet-footed, and quickest of any Hoya. This is why he was such a great defender. His role in Georgetown’s press was pivotal. As the weakside defender in the press, his job was primarily to deny the passing lanes. With his blazing speed, he possessed the ability to cover relatively large distances and quickly react to passes in and near his area. In addition, he was a very good on the ball defender.
In many ways Gene Smith and Wingate had similar styles of defense. With both Smith and Wingate defending on perimeter and playing with a sense of urgency, it becomes a little easier to understand why the Hoyas could shut down a Kentucky team that was favored to win the NCAA championship (after North Carolina had been knocked out of the tournament). Within the history of the NCAA tournament, I doubt that there was a better display of defensive excellence than that of GU in the second half of that Kentucky NCAA tournament game. Those were the days when GU really played defense. (There were some discussions, on this board, a few years ago, of GU being a good defensive team during the Esherick era. They noted the statistical average of opponents’ shooting percentage. But the claim that those teams were good defensively was merely a mirage.)
Also lost is that Wingate gave the team 12-15 points a game. I belive in both the 1984 and 1985 NCAA tournaments, Wingate was placed on the all-Regional teams. It was Wingate’s emergence that led Anthony Jones to transfer to UNLV. Jones and Wingate played the same position of swingman. (Interestingly, Anthony Jones was the #4 ranked high school basketball player his senior year. Ewing was ranked #1. I believe Michael Jordon was ranked #2). Jones was a much better shooter (though not necessarily a better scorer) than Wingate. But, Wingate was a shut down defender. JTII called it right by going with Wingate over Jones. Even most NBA scouts missed on Wingate. In 1986, Anthony Jones was drafted in the first round. The same year, Wingate was a second round draft pick. Wingate made the first or second (I think first) NBA all-rookie team and lasted in the league long enough to get the veteran’s minimum salary of $1 million. Anthony Jones did little in the NBA and lasted no more than two or three years.
Wingate surprised everybody his NBA rookie year and was given a starting guard position on the 76ers his second year. But, he got injured and eventually lost the starting job. Wingate should have had a much better NBA career than he did. Wingate did not work hard enough at becoming a good NBA player. (Throughout his NBA career, Wingate was plauged with problems in his dealings with women.) It appears that he was overwhelmed by the lifestyle of an NBA player. Charles Barkley alludes to the failings of Wingate to improve in his first autobiography.
Boubacar Aw is to me the other most underrated Hoya. He too, like Wingate possessed blazing speed and astounding quickness. But, he was taller, bigger, and meaner. On a team that included physical players like Othella Harrington, Jerome Williams, and Jahidi White, it was Aw who would go after opposing players for roughing up Iverson. I am sure that Iverson wishes he could have taken that type of protection with him to the NBA. Yet, Aw never really integrated his speed and quickness into his offensive game. Give Aw some confidence in his offensive, a left hand, and a jumpshot, he would be in the NBA. At first I blamed Aw’s lack of an offensive game on JTII. However, it was later disclosed that JTII wanted Aw to contribute more offensively and encourage Aw to shoot more. In fact, Aw could and did score more; but only when he and Shernard Long were the only offensive options. Yet, even with that, he never developed confidence in his offensive game.
To this day, I believe that if Aw had taken the last shot in the NIT game against Georgia Tech, the Hoyas would have won the game. Aw had the ball out on the wing, matched up one-on-one against Mat Harpring (I believe). I was yelling “take him off the dribble.” There is no way that Harpring could stop Aw from getting to the basket, if Aw really was determined to get there. In Harpring’s eyes, one could see his fear that Aw would beat him to the basket. Aw does start to take Harpring off the dribble. But, instead of going all the way to the basket, he passed off to a relatively open Rhese Gibson. Gibson was unprepared for the ball and missed a layup that he (Gibson) actually could have dunked. Lack of confidence, it’s hard to imagine a player who had confidence in his offense, like a Victor Page or a Shernard Long, to have given the ball up to Gibson.
I do not question your rankings. You did an excellent job. I do have a question. You include Anthony Perry in your ranking of the top 50 Hoyas. (And like SirSaxa, I belive that Esherick’s coaching destroyed Perry’s game. That will always be my main memory of Esherick.) If you include Perry, where do you put Victor Samnick? The Hoyas have not had a true shut down defender since Boubacar Aw. Victor Samnick comes closest to be that defensive stopper since Aw suited up for the Hoyas. Samnick is another one who did not develop under Samnick. But, I think Samnick was much more integral to the successes of the Hoyas, than Perry, in the two years they were teammates.
Again, I have no other words to describe your work other than”Excellent.”
|
|
HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
|
Post by HoyaChris on Sept 25, 2005 12:05:30 GMT -5
I feel that Samnick was a poor man's Boubacar. He was statistically a much worse shooter than Boubacar - for his career he shot 40% vs Boubacar's 52% from the field - and, while a good defender, he was not in Boubacar's class. I think if Boubacar could have had one more season that he would have developed into a true star.
|
|
nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
|
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 25, 2005 12:47:02 GMT -5
Am I the only one who remembers Gerald Riley as a superlative defender? Before the guy became one of the better spot up shooters in Hoya history, he was notable, to me, for being a fantastic on the ball defender. It's a mixed memory, but my favorite example of his abilities was the St. Johns where he completely stifled the far quicker Marcus Hatten, until fouling out with five minutes to go. Whereupon Hatten scores at will, Bethel and Hall wilt under the full court pressure, and we lose one of the more painful games of my tenure on the Hilltop. By the same token, he held Carmelo in check quite well when they matched up. Gerald was a versatile defender, but he got himself in trouble with handchecking. Some of that's inevitable when you're playing aggresive defense on talented players. I actually thought his defense declined as a senior, possibly because we needed him so bad on offense that Esherick had him back off the in-your-face D that was causing so many fouls. I don't really disagree with Gerald's overall ranking, but I do believe he's a better perimeter defender than, for example, anyone on the Hoyas roster at the moment. The best of the 2000s, for my money. Samnick doesn't quite crack this group, though Shomnick deserves consideration.
|
|
hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,222
|
Post by hoya73 on Sept 25, 2005 13:14:04 GMT -5
I agree that Gerald Riley was, in some games, an amazingly excellent defender. I especially remember him shutting down Darius Lane from Seton Hall in a game at MCI. He basically played, in that game, superlative position defense resulting in denying the pass to Lane. I think Lane, who was the focus of the Hall's offense, actually only had one shot attempt in the first half....but Gerald was not CONSISTENTLY a great defender. He had too many games where he was nowhere near that level. He may have played better defense when assigned to check an opposing star than when defending someone who wasn't supposed to be a big challenge.
|
|
HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
|
Post by HoyaChris on Sept 25, 2005 14:13:08 GMT -5
I concur with the comments about Gerald's defense. He could be awesome at times, got in foul trouble often, and his defense generally declined as a senior. The problem with playing on poor teams is that your performance generally lacks context. He may be too low on this list.
|
|
EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
|
Post by EasyEd on Sept 25, 2005 17:44:13 GMT -5
One remembrance of Wingate: he had a great ability to make shots off the glass. In fact, he seemed to want to go off the backboard in preference to shooting for the hoop.
|
|
SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
|
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 25, 2005 18:24:45 GMT -5
Hoyachris,
I have read your comments, NTAMM's and others about Wingate and come to the conclusion that you are right that he should be rated ahead of Bill Martin.
And I came up with a better term than "role player" to try to define what I was trying to get across. That term is "complementary player". I agree with all the great things said about him.... quickness, defense, steals, etc. Not to mention his decision to become a Hoya was followed a year later by his HS teammate -- Reggie Williams -- decision to do the same (although some people tell me Dean Smith told Reggie to attend GU). If I didn't make it clear before, I definitely think Wingate is a great player for the Hoyas. I don't think we was top 10. He was definitely top 20. Was he top 15? maybe.
What I mean by complementary was that his game fit in beautifully on a team that had PGs, shooters, rebounders, other top defenders and a really deep/strong bench. Most of all, he benefitted from having Patrick behind him. As JT learned from Red Auerbach while playing with Russell, a great, defensive center makes everyone on the team a better defender because they can take more chances, be more agressive, and know that if their man somehow gets by them, Patrick/Bill Russell will be there to back them up. That was perfect for Wingate because it enabled him to go all out after steals and not worry about occasionally getting burned. He didn't have to worry about picking up fouls that would take him off the court, because the team was deep and he wasn't a key part of the offense .. like a Gerald Riley was for example.
Of offense, with scoring options such as Patrick, Michael Jackson, Bill Martin, Reggie, Broadnax, and others on the team, their was no pressure on Wingate to score. As we have said, he was not a great shooter, but was a terrific "opportunity" scorer -- on the break, etc.
His abilities fit in beautifully on those teams because he complemented everyone else's talents. Had he been called upon to lead the team, to be the main guy the way Reggie, Patrick, Dikembe, Zo, Sweetney, Othella, Charles Smith, and so forth were... I don't see him able to handle that the way they did. Hence, on my list, he moves out of the top 10 all time Hoyas.
All that said, I'd like to see a few more board regulars contribute their versions of the top-50. Let's see what kind of consensus we can get going. Of course it is easier for the people who actually saw all these guys. And it does take some time to think through... I did not spend the time you did, but time nonetheless.
thanks again for all the work you put into the list.
|
|
idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
|
Post by idhoya on Sept 25, 2005 21:32:59 GMT -5
Riley was caught reaching far too often. Loved Bryant, one of my favorites. Smooth. How in the H$% did Robert Churchwell make the list, but Chico didn't. Boy those were some mediocre years. I remember when Othella verballed, he was the most sought after recruit in the country. I thought we were building towards something. Oh well. Guys who I thought coulda been nice had they stayed were: Tate, David Edwards, Shenard Long, Duane Spencer.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
Member is Online
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 25, 2005 22:03:01 GMT -5
If we're talking regrets at what could have been, imagine a senior Allen Iverson and a Junior Vic Page. Or even just a junior Vic Page.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,427
|
Post by MCIGuy on Sept 25, 2005 22:49:06 GMT -5
You know looking at this list and reading all the info makes me even more upset over Dick Weiss' recent selection of Top Ten Big East players. How is it that only one Hoya made the list (even if he was #1)? That gives the Hoyas as many (as few) players as Nova!! Ugh. Syracuse had three. UConn had two I think. How is it that The Pearl can make the list but Reggie Williams is always forgotten? Did the Pearl have any seasons as dominant as Reggie's senior year? People say that Carmello made the list because he won a national championship. Well, so did Reggie. The Pearl didn't win anything. How does Charles Smith go above Reggie or Alonzo? Put in AI too and kick out Kittles or Carmello.
|
|
|
Post by stafford72 on Sept 26, 2005 9:56:28 GMT -5
Surprised you never mentioned nickname for Tom "Mount" Scates. He was the true "Lurch" of Georgetown basketball, more physically imposing than all the rest, but with the movements of a body not quite in concert with itself. There was a follow-up piece on him in the Washington Post some years ago and he was seemingly content with his occupation as a doorman for one of Washington's premier hotels, complete with tophat and tails.
Having also witnessed Merlin Wilson's career, no one that tall for Gtown ever possessed his "hops".
Tim Lambour, even if eligible, would never make the top 50 list.
Any list of this magnitude will create debate over the last 5-10 picks. I agree that Winston and Cook deserve consideration for the list, but I am not sure who I would boot off.
One of the fascinating things about Gene Smith is that he would often score 40-50 points in summer league games, but never showed the willingness to display that offensive mentality for Gtown.
Thanks for the effort.
|
|
2ndRyan
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 329
|
Post by 2ndRyan on Sept 26, 2005 13:32:16 GMT -5
Thanks, HoyaChris. You ruined what was supposed to be a productive morning work-wise. I would echo NTAMM's and others' comments. This work is encyclopedic- I hope it was a labor of love.
Great to see 3 of John's original recruits on the list. My god, you even had willowy Billy Lynn, the sometime cartoonist from Springarn. Nice to see that for everyone Hoya basketball didn't begin with the arrival of Ewing or at the earliest Sleepy Floyd.
Thanks again for a great effort.
|
|
|
Post by saxahoya on Sept 26, 2005 15:13:43 GMT -5
I am a long time reader and first time poster here. I have been scanning this post over and over again with several of my friends and we can't seem to find any holes in the list. Great Post!!
|
|
harlemhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 901
|
Post by harlemhoya on Sept 26, 2005 17:25:12 GMT -5
Jaren Jackson vs Brandon Bowman.......
|
|
aggypryd
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,419
|
Post by aggypryd on Sept 26, 2005 19:04:20 GMT -5
Charles loved to take the big shot. In the 1988 NCAA game against Ohio State he dropped a 30 foot bomb at the buzzer – it is unclear if he actually called glass. That was LSU... He also had a very good game the following year when they travelled to LSU and the Hoyas helped set the attendance record in the state of Louisiana in the SuperDome...Zo's freshman year...I remember this vividly because I had just taken the SAT, and I was watching the game while at the kitchen table... Smitty had an incredible game off the bench against coach Gary Williams, Jay Burson, Dennis Hopson, and the rest of Ohio State in the '87 tourney...
|
|
aggypryd
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,419
|
Post by aggypryd on Sept 26, 2005 19:07:33 GMT -5
Am I the only one who remembers Gerald Riley as a superlative defender? No you aren't... I let people know often how he completely "Locked" JJ Redick down...that was before the phantom foul calls were made on Sweetney, and Coach Esh moved Riley to somebody else...
|
|
HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
|
Post by HoyaChris on Sept 26, 2005 19:12:37 GMT -5
Charles loved to take the big shot. In the 1988 NCAA game against Ohio State he dropped a 30 foot bomb at the buzzer – it is unclear if he actually called glass. That was LSU... He also had a very good game the following year when they travelled to LSU and the Hoyas helped set the attendance record in the state of Louisiana in the SuperDome...Zo's freshman year...I remember this vividly because I had just taken the SAT, and I was watching the game while at the kitchen table... Smitty had an incredible game off the bench against coach Gary Williams, Jay Burson, Dennis Hopson, and the rest of Ohio State in the '87 tourney... You are correct. I have modified the post.
|
|
aggypryd
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,419
|
Post by aggypryd on Sept 26, 2005 19:26:46 GMT -5
That was LSU... He also had a very good game the following year when they travelled to LSU and the Hoyas helped set the attendance record in the state of Louisiana in the SuperDome...Zo's freshman year...I remember this vividly because I had just taken the SAT, and I was watching the game while at the kitchen table... Smitty had an incredible game off the bench against coach Gary Williams, Jay Burson, Dennis Hopson, and the rest of Ohio State in the '87 tourney... You are correct. I have modified the post. That was during the period my brother and I were recording all the Hoya games... We remember the '87 tourney game vivdly...watched it at least 4 times a week that summer... I will definitely be "Q-ing" up the VCR for the next few seasons...I may actually put some labels on the tapes...
|
|