hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,222
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Post by hoya73 on Sept 23, 2005 23:05:09 GMT -5
Awesome summary of 30+ years of Hoya basketball. I came into GU in Jack McGee's last year when we beat only Hofstra, William & Mary and Loyola of Baltimore in the longest season ever, so also remember all the Thompson era. I can't quarrel with much of your rankings, but I'd make room , somewhere in the 43-50 range for Bobby Winston. Like Eric Smith before him, Bobby drew the toughest defensive assignment game after game and successfully defended guys thought to be too tall or too quick for him.
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,222
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Post by hoya73 on Sept 23, 2005 23:07:57 GMT -5
Awesome analysis of the last 30 years of Hoya basketball. I'd make room, somewhere between 43 and 50 for Bobby Winston. Like Eric Smith before him, Bobby drew the toughest defensive assignment game after game, usually succeeding in shutting down guys thought to be too tall or too quick for him.
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,222
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Post by hoya73 on Sept 23, 2005 23:09:50 GMT -5
Sorry for the duplication. thought it didn't go through first time because didn't notice it started a second page. My bad.
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 24, 2005 9:30:01 GMT -5
Awesome analysis of the last 30 years of Hoya basketball. I'd make room, somewhere between 43 and 50 for Bobby Winston. Like Eric Smith before him, Bobby drew the toughest defensive assignment game after game, usually succeeding in shutting down guys thought to be too tall or too quick for him. It is interesting that you chose the range 43-50, because that is the exact group of players that were, at some point, out of the top 50 during the list's formative stages. I think, for each Hoya fan , that the last 8 names could be substantially different. Bobby Winston just missed making my list. Ultimately, he was mostly a career reserve who played excellent defense. I just couldn't recall any transcendant games or seasons to put him over the top.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,394
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 24, 2005 15:41:24 GMT -5
I can only echo what many others have previously voiced: Thanx for the tremendous effort! This is such a wonderful read that brought back precious memories in my life.
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoya73 on Sept 24, 2005 16:54:32 GMT -5
A Tom Scates memory (#47). We played and upset Alabama who were led by a highly regarded big guy named Reggie King. Of the center matchup, JT II's comment: They got King but we got Kong.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 24, 2005 20:25:23 GMT -5
HoyaChris... once again, you did a fantastic job! And you asked us to "have at it"... so I will. Without doing the research you did, and relying mostly on memory, I made a few adjustments in your list.
The first 5 are a significant step above the others, and one can argue multiple ordering within those 5 -- so long as Patrick is #1. But for me, the clear #2 best player was Iverson -- even if he only stayed 2 years. More notes later.
HoyaChris....................Sir Saxa 1. Patrick Ewing...........1. Patrick Ewing 2. Reggie Williams........5. Allen Iverson 3. Sleepy Floyd ............2. Reggie Williams 4. Alonzo Mourning.......3. Sleepy Floyd 5. Allen Iverson ...........4. Alonzo Mourning
6. Mike Sweetney..........6. Mike Sweetney 7. (tie) John Duren........7. (tie) John Duren 7. (tie) Craig Shelton.....7. (tie) Craig Shelton 9. Derrick Jackson.........9. Derrick Jackson 10. David Wingate .......13. Othella Harrington
11. Charles Smith.........11. Charles Smith 12. Dikembe Mutombo..14. Michael Jackson 13. Othella Harrington...15. Merlin Wilson 14. Michael Jackson.......22. Jonathan Smith 15. Merlin Wilson...........19. Bill Martin
16. Victor Page.............12. Dikembe Mutombo 17. Mark Tillmon...........10. David Wingate 18. Kevin Braswell........16. Victor Page 19. Bill Martin ...............25. Perry McDonald 20. Jerome Williams......32. Jeff Green
21. Eric Smith.............17. Mark Tillmon 22. Jonathan Smith......23. Fred Brown 23. Fred Brown............20. Jerome Williams 24. Gene Smith............24. Gene Smith 25. Perry McDonald.......21. Eric Smith
26. Brandon Bowman...26. Brandon Bowman 27. Al Dutch................35. Steve Martin 28. Joey Brown............18. Kevin Braswell 29. Dwayne Bryant......27. Al Dutch "Treat" 30. Michael Graham.....33. Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje
31. Jaren Jackson.........31. Jaren Jackson 32. Jeff Green...............41. Jahidi White 33. Ruben Boumtje-B...34. Gerald Riley 34. Gerald Riley............29. Dwayne Bryant 35. Steve Martin...........28. Joey Brown
36. Don Reid ................36. Don Reid 37. Robert Churchwell...45. Anthony Perry 38. Billy Lynn ...............43. Horace Broadnax 39. Boubacar Aw...........37. Robert Churchwell 40. Ralph Dalton...........40. Ralph Dalton 41. Jahidi White............38. Billy Lynn 42. Ed Hopkins............. 39. Boubacar Aw 43. Horace Broadnax.....30. Michael Graham 44. George Butler..........50. Ed Spriggs 45. Anthony Perry ........48. Cheikh Dia 46. Larry Long.............N.R. Shernard Long 47. Tom Skates............N.R. Demetrius Hunter 48. Cheikh Dia.............N.R. Ashanti Cook 49. Lee Scruggs............N.R. Ed Sheffey 50. Ed Spriggs..............46. Larry Long
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 24, 2005 20:45:10 GMT -5
OK, a few explanations.
At the bottom of the list: 1. I don't take the same position as you about players who left the program. Shenard had academic trouble and JT helped steer him to his new location. Sheffey had legal issues and probably would have been asked back, but he didn't want to wait. Demtrius was awesome and getting even better... an early casualty of the Esherick era.
I dropped Lee Scruggs... he's a classic "coulda, woulda, shoulda"... but he didn't. And it was his own fault. Dropped Butler... excellent player, but he screwed our NCAA chances in Iverson's freshman year with inexcusable academic issues. I left off Ed Hopkins and Tom Scates.
Back to the top -- in my opinion: Othella has to be in the top ten Jonathan Smith was an awesome talent and huge for the first four Hoya teams in the JT era. Bill Martin was a top 15 Hoya -- played the way he was needed on awesome teams. David Wingate dropped to 17, but look who is ahead of him. Yes, he was terrific... but as a role player on a hugely talented team. Perry McDonald and Jeff Green go to the top 20. Perry's team contributions were amazing... played far over his height. IN Jeff's first year, he already proved he rates higher than Bowman and in the Hoya top-20, and I expect him to rise in succeeding years.
I moved Steve Martin up -- class act, complete player, smart player. Braswell dropped. I never saw him as a true leader/great player like the guys above him. He put up some numbers, but he had significant holes in his game.. defense, shot selection, leadership. He got the numbers because he was the "teacher's pet". I personally cannot put him above any of the guys listed ahead of him. (I know there are KB lovers on this board who will vehemently disagree)
Jahidi moved up 10 spots or so. I just feel he was that good --often injured. Joey Brown moved down. If this chart were base on "Heart", he'd be top 5. Anthony Perry had some amazing contributions and still played solid D as a senior. In my opinion, the worst example of a coach destroying a player....followed by Wesley Wilson, who does not make our lists.
Michaell Graham moved down. When I looked at your ranking, it felt like you put him half way between where he could have been had he stayed and reached his potential, and where he really is for only one year of being a role player. Spriggs moved up a little because of his impact... and his senior leadership to make way for freshman Ewing. he was a mentor and occasional subsitute and enforcer for Pat.
Gotta Love Ya Ya. Played much better than anyone expected his senior year. Gave his all -- always. Wise beyond years, hence "Grandpa".
OK -- that's it. Thanks again, and lets see what others have to say. This was a great idea. I wonder what this list will look like 5 years from now!?!?!
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,408
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 24, 2005 21:08:11 GMT -5
Sir Saxa - My comments on your changes.
You moved Iverson up within the top 5 - As I said, numbers 2 through 5 can probably go in any direction.
You moved Jon Smith way up - I'm not sure his junior and senior years warrant the jump.
You Dropped David Wingate significantly and jumped up Bill Martin. - I am OK with Martin higher, but moving Wingate down so far makes no sense to me. Wingate scored 400 points, 260 more assists and 100 more steals than Martin. Martin had 250 more rebounds. Wingate was massively superior defensively.
You jumped Jeff Green up to 20 - wait til next year.
You dropped Michael Graham way down - I think all tournament in the NCAA is worth more.
You added Shernard Long (who I loved) Ed Sheffey and Demetrius Hunter, all of whom I viewed as ineligible because they transferred.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 24, 2005 21:12:15 GMT -5
A comment on Jeff Green... I have not made it past Deke in the narrative and just sort of eyeballed the top 50, but Jeff's ranking strikes me as too high at first glance. Maybe ROTY in the BE is worth a high ranking, but he was still the second leading scorer on a team that did not make the NCAA's. I could see swapping him with someone like Don Reid and would also agree in concept with moving Jahidi up a few spots (not necessarily 10).
Again, great work here, Chris.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by nychoya3 on Sept 24, 2005 21:13:39 GMT -5
I finally finished reading this piece (I loved every second of it). One thought occured about how the several guys who had promising careers snuffed out by injuries that would have been pretty simply treatable only a few years later. Guys like Fred Brown and Merlin Wilson could really be up in the lights, but they're almost afterthoughts. Also, Dikembe putting up 12 blocks to go along with 2 points and 2 boards against SJU is so hilarious. What other player could play a game like that? I don't think anyone has ever loved any aspect of basketball the way Dikembe loves blocking shots. Thanks again for writing this.
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 24, 2005 21:18:08 GMT -5
Sir Saxa - The one thing I don't get is David Wingate as a role player. He was second in scoring each of his four years. Bill Martin was 7th, 4th, 4th and 3rd.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2005 21:43:18 GMT -5
Excellent choices all around, and I agree with Chris that Iverson is out of the top four as for being a two year player.
Maybe there's some table talk out there on three more (non-transfer) names that missed the list:
1. Tim Lambour (played under Thompson but was not recruited by him) 2. Greg Brooks (until he got injured) 3. Nate Burton
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 24, 2005 21:54:02 GMT -5
It's hard to get a sense on Lambour. I never saw him play and his statistics are largely missing.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 24, 2005 22:42:00 GMT -5
Sir Saxa - The one thing I don't get is David Wingate as a role player. He was second in scoring each of his four years. Bill Martin was 7th, 4th, 4th and 3rd. And Jonathan Smith, Jeff Green, Michael Graham. Let's take these three first. The caveat --again -- is that I did not do the research you did. Also, I think you did a great job. But my memory sees a few of the selections differently. This time, I'll try to give more data to back up my Smith, Green, Graham and Wingate positions. Jonathan Smith was the leading scorer his first three years. As a freshman, he took over the scoring/focal-point burden on a team that was coming off 3-23. He was a huge jump in talent over any previous guard at GU. From DFW's website: "Notable: Led team in scoring three straight years, one of only nine times in GU history a single player has done so. Ranked 15th all-time in scoring." Scoring totals were: 13.0 17.9!!! 10.9 (number dropped when D. Jackson arrived to share the load) 7.3 (not sure why this # dropped, but he also missed 5 games and appears to have played far fewer minutes. I don't recall, but that would suggest injuries.) Jeff Green: Looking at stats... co-BE ROY, 2nd leading scorer, leading 3 pt. shooter, leading rebounder and assist man.... there are lots of stats to justify placing Jeff at #20 (IMHO). But most of all, when I look at all the guys I listed below him, I don't see anyone who deserves to be ahead of him. Michael Graham... 4.0 RPG, 4.7 PPG for the season? Yes, he was good in the NCAAs. But that doesn't look like a career top rated guy to me. I would take Jeff Green ahead of Michael Graham any time. Bill Martin vs. David Wingate. Maybe you are right. maybe Wingate deserves to be higher than Martin, but I have Martin at 15 and Wingate at 17... not a huge difference. I don't see Wingate at #10. Saying he was the 17th greatest player in the Thompson era is not exactly a dis. Wingate was an excellent defender, and he was a "scorer", not a shooter. I recall Martin being a much more dangerous offensive threat (and of course rebounder) who could shoot that sweet J from anywhere and would have had a lot more pts. with a 3 pt. line. Wingate got a lot of his points off steals and D, and especially in the 4 corners at the end of games. He was almost always quicker than the guy guarding him, and with the teams spread out on the floor as we ran down the clock, sooner or later he would blow past his man and take it to the hole -- repeatedly. Not sure how much that pumped his numbers, but it was a factor. Now that was really valuable too, but not the same as scoring within the offense during the course of the game. As for the guys I ranked ahead of where you have him listed: I don't think he ranks ahead of Othella. I don't think he could control a game the way Michael Jackson and Charles Smith did. Merlin Wilson was a beast and an awesome player on offense and defense Jonathan Smith came into a much tougher environment than Wingate.... I can't see Wingate having that same kind of impact if he had joined the team at the time that Smith did. Wingate was never the focus of the other team's defense the way Smith was. OK... I ranked Martin higher... that's just how I feel. But really, I ranked them pretty darn close -- within two spots. As for Dikembe, yes.... I think he was a bigger factor in his jr. and sr. years for the team than was Wingate. Deke could make a team. Wingate was a great addition to a team that was already awesome. If you wanted to move Deke up one spot to 15, put Wingate at 16 and Martin at 17... I wouldn't have a big argument. But I wouldn't mind leaving it the way it is either. By no means should any of this be construed as not appreciating what a truly great player Wingate was. I just think those other guys were even better and more significant on their teams.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 24, 2005 22:52:10 GMT -5
Excellent choices all around, and I agree with Chris that Iverson is out of the top four as for being a two year player. Maybe there's some table talk out there on three more (non-transfer) names that missed the list: 1. Tim Lambour (played under Thompson but was not recruited by him) 2. Greg Brooks (until he got injured) 3. Nate Burton Of these guys, I would say Nat Burton has the best argument to be included. You guys choose to "penalize" Iverson for the 2 year issue, i just look at him as one of the greatest players ever. I guess we just see that 2 year thing differently.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 24, 2005 23:06:20 GMT -5
Sir Saxa - The one thing I don't get is David Wingate as a role player. He was second in scoring each of his four years. Bill Martin was 7th, 4th, 4th and 3rd. HoyaChris...let me explain what I meant by "role player". 1. He wasn't Patrick.. the #1 focus on offense and defense for opponents, one of the greatest ever... yada yada.. you know this part. 2. He wasn't the PG controlling the team. 3. He wasn't a Reggie Williams who was counted on as a key part of the offense 4. He wasn't a dangerous outside shooter other teams had to fear. He was a great athlete, got a lot of assists and steals, drove the lane, got put backs, scored off the 4 corners at the ends of games. But on a weaker team, he would have had a hard time being the lead guy... unlike Patrick, Reggie, Michael Jackson and (IMHO) Bill Martin. If I just looked at the stat lines of those years and saw his numbers, I might think differently. But I know you saw those guys play, as did I. Does any of what I am writing make sense to you? At any rate, that's how I recall it.
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 24, 2005 23:23:47 GMT -5
I agree that Wingate was not a dangerous outside shooter. But I have both the 84 and the 1985 games on tape, and in both of them especially 1985, Wingate is actually the leader on the floor. I always felt that Martin could do more than he did, but I just don't remember him doing it,
Career Rankings
Scoring - Wingate 6, Martin 16 Rebounding - Martin 9, Wingate 28 Assists - Wingate 8, Martin NR Steals - Wingate 5, Martin NR
Big East - Wingate - Second Team twice, Third team once Martin - second team once
Wingate 15 year NBA career. Martin 3 year NBA career
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hoya73
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoya73 on Sept 25, 2005 0:01:47 GMT -5
I've got to concur with HoyaChris putting Wingate just inside the top 10. Yes, he wasn't Patrick, but that only drops him out of the top 1. He wasn't the point guard controlling the team on offense, but if there's a defensive equivalent of a point guard, that he was. He wasn't Duren who was both the offensive AND the defensive point guard, so correctly lower than BayBay. He wasn't Reggie Williams but that only keeps him out of the top 5: He was counted on as a key part of the offense in an offense that had to have quick points off defensive plays to succeed. He wasn't feared for his outside shooting, but I saw real fear in the eyes of lots of BE guards both when being guarded by Wingate and when being broken down while trying to guard him.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Sept 25, 2005 4:21:28 GMT -5
re jonathon smith he was a mighty power little guy who helped make the program i believe altho thompson wouldnt say or maybe he commented later that jt2 held him out so he could do his academics and that may have been a miss fenlon request and i think that may have been either in the drive for the ncaas or even in some post season action.. does dfw remember or have real data not just my memory which is shal we say .............. old anyway jonathon smith was a mighty mite power heart and an ealry star to help the hoyas grow.. ps possible one of the greatest performances defensively by a hoya was by gerry pyles vs. columbia who was ranked at the time nationally and we upset them they had two all americans one i believe was a guy named mcmillan and jerry pyles shut him down to help us win the game.. one of the truly great performances probably was pre thompson but one of the greatest things i saw at mcdonough go hoyas one and all dfw got that one ?
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