MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 26, 2005 21:38:09 GMT -5
That was LSU... He also had a very good game the following year when they travelled to LSU and the Hoyas helped set the attendance record in the state of Louisiana in the SuperDome...Zo's freshman year...I remember this vividly because I had just taken the SAT, and I was watching the game while at the kitchen table... Smitty had an incredible game off the bench against coach Gary Williams, Jay Burson, Dennis Hopson, and the rest of Ohio State in the '87 tourney... You are correct. I have modified the post. Since we're making corrections let me also point out that Smitty did not hurt himself early in the tourney game against Duke in '89. He bruised himself early in the BET final in '89 against Syracuse during the tipoff. He sat for a couple of minutes before coming back in and hitting the first two shots of the game (both three pointers). In the tournament sometime between the second round game against Notre Dame and the third round against NC State, he came down with some illness. For awhile it appeared as if he wasn't going to suit up for the Wolfpack game. He did end up playing but his minutes were limited and he was very ineffective in what turned out to be another close win. He looked much better against Duke in the Final Eight but still wasn't 100%. It took him awhile to get going in that Duke game (really didn't come to life until the second half), but unfortunately the Hoyas couldn't pull it out.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 26, 2005 21:51:09 GMT -5
Since we're making corrections let me also point out that Smitty did not hurt himself early in the tourney game against Duke in '89. He bruised himself early in the BET final in '89 against Syracuse during the tipoff. He sat for a couple of minutes before coming back in and hitting the first two shots of the game (both three pointers). In the tournament sometime between the second round game against Notre Dame and the third round against NC State, he came down with some illness. For awhile it appeared as if he wasn't going to suit up for the Wolfpack game. He did end up playing but his minutes were limited and he was very ineffective in what turned out to be another close win. He looked much better against Duke in the Final Eight but still wasn't 100%. It took him awhile to get going in that Duke game (really didn't come to life until the second half), but unfortunately the Hoyas couldn't pull it out. Thanks, entry corrected.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 26, 2005 21:58:01 GMT -5
No problem. That NCAA tourney run still depresses me and I can never seem to forget any of it.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Sept 26, 2005 22:49:06 GMT -5
No problem. That NCAA tourney run still depresses me and I can never seem to forget any of it. We watched that Duke game so much...particularly the 7 points in 34 seconds in the second half... We always turned it off after the Hoyas cut it to 3 and Mark Tillmon missed the 3 ptr... My mother remarked, "The outcome is still the same ain't it, fellas?" I really hated going back to school after that game...luckily, we had a week off because of Easter/Spring Break...
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 26, 2005 23:21:41 GMT -5
Another thing that bothers me about that game is how much press that Christian Laettner got out of it for "beating" Alonzo. Zo didn't have a great game, but I always felt that it was mostly Danny Ferry (and the Refs) who were responsible.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Sept 26, 2005 23:40:25 GMT -5
Zo spent most of the game guarding Ferry. It ticked me off too how the media made it out that Laettner beat Zo one-on-one when in reality John Turner, Jaren Jackson and even Charles Smith were caught guarding Laettner when he put up points. I will concede that Laettner had the better game overall, but he got most of his points against others not named Alonzo Mourning. JT should have played Deke alongside Zo in that game or gone to the smaller lineup-fullcourt press much earlier.
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Post by Hoya69 on Sept 27, 2005 4:17:13 GMT -5
This was great fun to read and I appreciate all the hard work that went into it.
I will disagree with one thing you wrote re Ewing "As a sophomore, his match-up with Virginia’s Ralph Sampson was probably (at that time) the most anticipated regular season college basketball game ever played." I believe the most anticipated college came took place in Houston during the 1967-68 season between unbeaten Houston with Elvin Hayes and unbeaten UCLA with Jabbar
As a junior, before a then-record crowd of 52,693 in the Astrodome -- Jabbar shot just 4-of-18. Elvin Hayes scored 39 points, including the winning two free throws with 25 seconds left, as Houston snapped UCLA's 47-game winning streak 71-69.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 27, 2005 7:52:34 GMT -5
This was great fun to read and I appreciate all the hard work that went into it. I will disagree with one thing you wrote re Ewing "As a sophomore, his match-up with Virginia’s Ralph Sampson was probably (at that time) the most anticipated regular season college basketball game ever played." I believe the most anticipated college came took place in Houston during the 1967-68 season between unbeaten Houston with Elvin Hayes and unbeaten UCLA with Jabbar As a junior, before a then-record crowd of 52,693 in the Astrodome -- Jabbar shot just 4-of-18. Elvin Hayes scored 39 points, including the winning two free throws with 25 seconds left, as Houston snapped UCLA's 47-game winning streak 71-69. I'll stick wth the assessment tht Ewing - Sampson was more anticipated. Much of this is predicated on where college basketball was in the national sports consciousness subsequent to the advent of ESPN - it simply had a much higher profile. I do not believe that attendance is an appopriate measure. I am absolutely confident that had 75000 seats been available at the Capital Center that they would have been snapped up. As a final piece of evidence, and this is all highly subjective, I would offer the then current Sports Illustrated covers. The UCLA - Houston game was featured after Houston's upset win, the Georgetown - Virginia game got a cover in advance.
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Post by stafford72 on Sept 27, 2005 8:22:51 GMT -5
I have to agree that the Houston UCLA game was more viable. Some of the reason is timing. The Ewing/Sampson matchup was too early in the season. People had not gotten into college basketball yet. Also, the Jabbar/Hayes matchup had more of a David and Goliath mystique to it. Then too, there was the aura of the winning streak that could be broken.
Sadly enough, the UCLA/Houston game was a much better contest.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Sept 27, 2005 9:00:36 GMT -5
Hype. An interesting phenomenon, to say the least. While I’d generally agree that the Ewing-Sampson collision, which I’m happy to say I was at, despite our loss, was more anticipated, I think a not insignificant portion of that can be attributed to the growth in coverage of the college game. The Alcindor-Hayes game was perhaps as ballyhooed when it occurred, but in 1968 college basketball still hadn’t quite captured the public attention it enjoys today. Ponder this: Alcindor (he hadn’t adopted his Muslim name yet) and UCLA had beaten Hayes and Houston the NCAA semifinals the previous year, on their way to the national title and an unbeaten season. So, when they rolled into Houston on a 47 game winning streak, all the elements were in place for a clash of the titans. But there was no cable TV then, no ESPN, etc. The hype was clearly huge for the era, but nowhere near on the scale of what was to come. When Ewing-Sampson took place, cable had taken off, in fact the game marked the very first major national sports telecast on WTBS. The sports broadcasting scene had begun to blossom. The hype was all there!
BTW, much is made of UCLA’s narrow loss to Houston. What’s often forgotten is that Alcindor had suffered an eye injury prior to the game. A scratched cornea, if I recall correctly. He had double vision in the contest. So his subpar offensive output was understandable. The Uclans more than exacted revenge when they met Houston in the NCAAs later in the year with a 30+ point destruction. Kinda like what we did to St. John’s in the Sweater Game (was at that one, too : >). We just didn't seal the deal with a title....
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Sept 27, 2005 9:32:24 GMT -5
It was Wingate’s emergence that led Anthony Jones to transfer to UNLV. Jones and Wingate played the same position of swingman. (Interestingly, Anthony Jones was the #4 ranked high school basketball player his senior year. Ewing was ranked #1. I believe Michael Jordon was ranked #2). Jones was a much better shooter (though not necessarily a better scorer) than Wingate. But, Wingate was a shut down defender. JTII called it right by going with Wingate over Jones. Even most NBA scouts missed on Wingate. In 1986, Anthony Jones was drafted in the first round. The same year, Wingate was a second round draft pick. Wingate made the first or second (I think first) NBA all-rookie team and lasted in the league long enough to get the veteran’s minimum salary of $1 million. Anthony Jones did little in the NBA and lasted no more than two or three years. NTAMM, I hate to quibble with one of my favorite posters (who doesn't post often enough!), but IMHO I think you're wrong re: Wingate vs. Jones. Yes, they both were "swingmen," but Wingate was primarily a backcourt player, while Jones played small forward. I think a bigger factor leading to AJ's departure was the impending arrival of one Reggie "Russ" Williams, who clearly was slated for the small forward position and would have been direct competition. In their freshmen year Anthony Jones had a much bigger impact than Bill Martin. He could leap with anybody and his baseline jumper was a real offensive threat off the bench for us. His shoulder injury his sophomore year certainly hurt his development as a Hoya. I think he would have been a real factor for us, otherwise.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 27, 2005 12:42:37 GMT -5
I hereby nominate HoyaChris as the first member of the Hoyatalk Board Hall of Fame. I have been following the board for about five years, now (so I don't go back as far as some), but this is without a doubt the best post/series of posts I have ever seen. I can't even begin to imagine how long it took to do the research for and write this epic.
The Alcindor/Hayes matchup received huge amounts of hype for its time. The mere fact that the game was played in the Astrodome is proof of that. I believe the game was played on January 19 or 20, and the 20th is my birthday, so it was a really crappy birthday present. Oddly, the rematch was played on my parents' anniversary, so I was unable to watch the game. And, of course, this was pre VCR's and TIVO. So I took my faithful transistor radio to the restaurant with me, and listened during dinner. I know this is off topic, but I had told my friends that UCLA would win the rematch by at least 20, since Houston had squeaked by in the first game thanks to a career game by Hayes and Alcindor being hurt. That rematch was a very satisfying win, indeed. Now there was a team with a killer instinct.
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Post by Hoya69 on Sept 27, 2005 18:22:51 GMT -5
While I still vote for Houston /UCLA as the most hyped regular season game, what about tournament games? Three big ones that immediately come to mind are Ewing/Gtown vs Houston with Olajuwon.. Ewing/Gtown vs Kentucky with the twin towers and of course Magic vs Bird...
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Post by NTAMM on Sept 27, 2005 20:12:16 GMT -5
SirSaxa,
My comments about David Wingate were not intended to weigh in on the debate about whether David Wingate should be ranked higher than Bill Martin. My intention was to point out that I consider David Wingate to be underrated in terms of his contribution to the 1984 and 1985 NCAA Finals Championship teams and explain why. For various reasons, players on those teams were overshadowed, by their teammates Patrick Ewing and Reggie Williams, and the coach, John Thompson.
In fact, you make a good case for ranking Martin over Wingate. There really is not a right or wrong answer. It depends on the criteria one uses. In looking at GU basketball it really is difficult to rank players for a number of reasons:
1. Generally, GU players who made it to the NBA played better than expected in the NBA; many were better pros than they were college players. The exceptions were Reggie Williams, Charles Smith, and possibly Sleepy Floyd. Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Wingate, Harrington, Reid, J. Jackson, and Iverson all displayed parts of their games, as pros, that were not showcased when they were in college. For example, when Don Reid was the starting center for the Pistons, one Detroit sports writer once wrote that if Don Reid was as 7 footer, he would be an NBA All-Star. I doubt if anybody following GU basketball would have expected Reid to be drafted much less be a starting NBA center. 2. There are many former Hoyas whose contributions were pivotal to the team; but never played in the NBA – e.g., Victor Page, Ya-Ya Dia, Joey Brown. Whereas some of their teammates whose contributions were not up to the same level had relatively long NBA careers – e.g, Jahidi White, Jerome Williams, Don Reid. Victor Page was a major force as a freshman. He carried the team on his back as a sophomore. However, it was teammate Jahidi White who had an NBA career. 3. The style of play stressed team work and selflessness. Players, without complaint, sacrificed their individual games and focused on the success of the team. In college, Ewing never had the gaudy statistics that one would have expected of a number one pick and future NBA superstar. As you indicated Bill Martin willingly accepted being the third, fourth, sometimes even the fifth option on offense. On most other teams, he would have been the focus of the offense and a 20 point scorer. Something like that happened with Anthony Jones. Had he stayed at GU, he probably would have been the second or third player off the bench. However, he transfers to UNLV, starts at guard, averages close to 20 points a game, and becomes a first round NBA draft pick. 4. JTII substitution patterns. Some of JTII’s substitution patterns were almost comical, such as starting Ben Gillory for the opening tip. Three or four minutes later, Gillory was on the bench, never to see another second of playing time. Others were subtle like starting Mike Hancock, then substituting with Ed Spriggs. I think that most would agree that although Hancock started, Spriggs was the indispensable enforcer the team needed. Some substitutions were to keep players fresh and maintain defensive pressure. Others had the effect of changing the direction of the game such as substituting Bobby Winston – a bigger, more defensive-oriented guard -- for Dwayne Bryant, then moving Charles Smith to the point. Still, others left you wondering, like playing Ralph Dalton over Grady Mateen. 5. Value to the team versus overall individual skills. This makes it particularly difficult to rank players. For teams that played in the 1984 and 1985 championships, I would submit that there were two indispensable players. It was obvious that Patrick Ewing was the most indispensable player. The second player was not so obvious. That player was Michael Jackson. He could score if needed. But, in most instances he scored just enough to open up the court for his other talented teammates. He was a very good defender. Defense on a good defensive team begins with the point guard. Jackson set the tone for the defense. He understood how to be a court general on a championship college team. Yet, I believe that teammates David Wingate and Bill Martin were better individual talents. 6. Lastly, the era and makeup of the different teams of different eras makes it hard to rank Hoyas. If you were to ask me of all players, which Hoya had the individual best season, I would maintain that it was Alonzo Mourning. Zo was a complete beast, and just so dominant his senior year. He controlled games both defensively and offensively. On offense, teams often sent four players to guard Mourning; yet, he averaged more than 20 points a game. On defense, teams knew coming in that he was a great shot blocker. Yet Mourning still got to shots opponents did not think he could block. Mourning was so good his senior year that if you had teamed him one of the perimeter players who left (i.e., David Edwards or Antoine Stoudamire) or a player perimeter player who should have been a Hoya (i.e., Kenny Anderson), the Hoyas would have been a Final Four team. For me, Mourning’s senior year was more dominant than any of Ewing’s years at GU. However, I would never say that Mourning should rank above Ewing as the best Hoya off all time.
Given the issues I listed above, I think it all the more amazing job performed by HoyaChris and yourself. With that said, I can’t dispute HoyaChris’s rankings, nor can I dispute your (SirSaxa) rankings. Again, it depends on the criteria one uses.
More than where you ranked a player, it is interesting why you ranked a player at a certain levels. That is really what I enjoyed and where I learn. For example, take your comments about Anthony Perry. I hate to dwell on this, but his relative lack of productivity, at GU, is still mind boggling to me. (It might be because I was a big Perry fan.) How, can a player go from being whispered about as the first guard who could possibly make the jump from high school to the NBA? (Yes, as a rising senior, Perry was considered to be that good. Tracy McGrady and Kobie Bryant were “technically” forwards – or had forward size.) Then your coach publicly states that Perry’s strength was that he (Perry) had no weaknesses? Then a year later, the coach basically states in public that he can’t shot, can’t handle the ball, and can’t pass? Watching Perry play after his sophomore year, I always felt that he was not there mentally and emotionally – he thought too much, tried too hard, and focused more on fulfilling the niche the coach put him in rather than on playing basketball.
It seemed that the coach was always putting him in a “no win” situation. At his best, Perry always performed within the flow of the game. But, if the opportunity called for it (and the coach recognized it), he could and would take over a game. That is why his high school coach referred to Perry as the “Silent Assassin.” That was Perry’s m.o. in high school and his first season as a Hoya. But, after his first season, I saw situations I couldn’t believe. Consider running a three-guard set and where Perry essentially a played a small forward. That may have worked in high school. It was not going to work against teams like UConn and Syracuse who had NBA-quality small forwards – particularly not with the frontcourt the Hoyas had at the time and a point guard who was a poor to average defender. And then not to put Perry in situations where he could use his extraordinary speed and quickness? For a long time, I wondered if it was just me who felt that the coach destroyed Perry’s game or was it that I was completely wrong about Perry. But, I see from your post, that you have similar thoughts about bad coaching affecting Perry’s game.
In any event, I just wanted to clarify the intent of my post on Wingate. As you note, it would be interesting for others to list their rankings and explain their differences. As you probably are aware that is not an easy task.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 27, 2005 21:11:04 GMT -5
I read "The Miracle of St. Anthony" this summer, and one of the things that stuck out for me was a story about Bob Hurley going to watch Anthony Perry play a game his soph (?) year. Hurley got to the game early, was watching warmups and noticed that Perry had picked up a serious mechanics issue in his shooting form and he went down and pointed it out/corrected it and having Perry say he had been shooting like that for awhile.
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Post by NoCleverName on Sept 27, 2005 21:19:01 GMT -5
In regards to Perry, there are a few brief references to his struggles at GU in the recent book about Bob Hurley Sr, his high school coach. The book refers to Esherick as overmatched and mentions Hurley going to see Perry play against Rutgers and being aghast at how bad Perry's shooting mechanics were. Basically, the book states that Perry was not really coached at GU and certainly not to the level he received in high school. Of course, Hurley is one of, if not the best, high school coaches in the country.
Anyway, the book's title is The Miracle of St. Anthony and its a great read for basketball fans.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 27, 2005 21:38:51 GMT -5
The Perry comments are interesting. There was some talk on this board (circa 1999) whether Esherick would hire a more experienced coaching staff to help support his adjustment to head coach or, as a couple of posters asked, whether he simply had to retain Thompson's prior staff. In that sense, he didn't really add a new group of assistants until 2003-04.
Ronny Thompson and Chip Simms were recruiters first and not fundamentals coaches, but Perry's shooting nonetheless improved each of his three years. The big difference was that his field goals attempted decreased from 400 shots in 1999 to only 190 by 2001.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 27, 2005 21:55:28 GMT -5
As is probaby obvious, I love statistics, but I think that in Perry's case his shooting percentages are misleading. By his last year he was almost paralyzed when it came to shooting from the outside and would usually pass up the shot. I suspect that the increased shooting percentage reflects a much higher mix of layups in transition.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 28, 2005 4:08:47 GMT -5
Anthony Jones My memory is of Jones as a bit of a "head case". Kind of like Chuck Knoblauch who suddenly couldn't throw to first. Jones, who was quite a good shooter and a great athlete, suddenly couldn't shoot free throws. I think he missed 15 or 20 in a row. Perhaps someone recalls more accurately than I. it was said he had a hard time playing in DC in particular, because of the enormous expectations. I recall being told that Pops was the one who helped arrange his transfer to UNLV, to help him get a fresh start and pursue his NBA career. I can't verify that. He was a first rate athlete and talent.
Hayes v. Alcindor or Ewing v Sampson. I guess if one takes the position that the media was more involved with college basketball in general and more into hyping things in the '80s, then one can justify saying Sampson-Ewing was the more "anticipated" event. But among basketball fans, college basketball fans, it would be much more difficult to make that case. UCLA was in the middle of a streak of 10 titles in 12 years. Lew Alcindor (later known as Kareem Abdul Jabbar) was in a run of 3 straight NCAA titles himself. And it was mentioned that UCLA had a 47 game winning streak on the line.
One would have to put these players in perspective too. As great as all four were, especially in college, none were as great as Alcindor/Jabbar. the NCAA changed the RULES to try to minimize Jabbar's effectiveness..... by outlawing the Dunk! Hayes too was extremely highly regarded as was his Houston team. And the Astrodome was like the 8th wonder of the world at that time. It was a new and incredible building. The first time a college basketball game had been held in such a huge venue.
Neither GU nor Virginia were NCAA title teams when they met. Due to graduations (especially Sleepy) Ewing did not have the supporting cast he'd had the previous spring in the very narrow loss to UNC, so GU was not at the level of a Houston and UVA was clearly not at the level of UCLA.
I think that is the point AvantGuardHoya was making. With ESPN and so forth, the media may have been more visibly involved with hyping the game. But for true fans of college basketball, the Alcindor-Hayes event was bigger.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 28, 2005 4:13:47 GMT -5
As you note, it would be interesting for others to list their rankings and explain their differences. NTAMM... as one of the most knowlegdable, thoughtful and respected posters, I would like to see you follow your own comment above and post the top-50 as you see them. The points you made about the subjectiveness and alternate criteria for evaluation are great.. very perceptive. Your views would be quite interesting, and -- as you mentioned -- the rationale behind the rankings is the most interesting part. I hope that you will have the time to oblige. And thanks for the complimentary comments.
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