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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 8, 2022 19:30:30 GMT -5
This hedging thing is still confusing to me. So I have been trying to think of ways the Ewing extension is a hedge. Some options:
1. Lock down Ewing at a good price. This argument would be that if Ewing has success, he could demand even more money, so lock him in while you can. Rebuttal: this makes zero sense because Ewing still had two years on his contract, the extension seems to be at least a modest increase in salary from his original salary, and nobody else would have paid him close to $4 million to coach.
2. Prevent Ewing from leaving for the NBA. Rebuttal: First, the extension likely would not have prevented this. Second, the NBA wouldn't give him a shot with a blank slate. After seeing him struggle in college (even despite the BET win), I doubt any NBA franchise had any serious interest.
3. Prevent Ewing from leaving for another college team. Rebuttal: Never was going to happen (and Ewing even publicly said in the past he'd never coach college except at Georgetown).
4. Commit university resources because maybe in 2 years they wouldn't? Perhaps the logic here is that because COVID was happening, finances were tight, Georgetown wanted to lock in a highly paid coach while they could? Rebuttal: This is extremely far fetched. If true, it would actually make a little sense, but I also think this would require a significantly warped view of reality.
5. Commit because you know the next President of Georgetown will stiff basketball. Rebuttal: DeGioia is still President, so this is just not true.
Anyway, I await DFW's explanation, as I cannot think of an even reasonably sensible decision-making process that considered the extension hedge despite his record to that point.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 8, 2022 22:40:51 GMT -5
Anyway, I await DFW's explanation, as I cannot think of an even reasonably sensible decision-making process that considered the extension hedge despite his record to that point. No inside information here--relying on public releases such as GUHoyas.com or the Post. 1. In Craig Esherick's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2009. 2. In John Thompson III's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2013. 3. In 2013 JT III signed a second six year extension that carried him to 2019. There seems reasonable public information that at the fourth year of a contract for men's basketball, a six year extension is the norm at Georgetown, or at least the recent trend. An extension of only three years, however odious it is right now, could be considered a hedge against committing the University to six years along the lines of what Craig Esherick and John Thompson III eventually signed. Despite what you may see on Twitter, it's worth remembering that the journalist which reported an extension, Jon Rothstein, reported in February that "Exact terms of the extension and how much of it is guaranteed is still unknown." To date, he has not provided any further update on this.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 8, 2022 23:46:06 GMT -5
Anyway, I await DFW's explanation, as I cannot think of an even reasonably sensible decision-making process that considered the extension hedge despite his record to that point. No inside information here--relying on public releases such as GUHoyas.com or the Post. 1. In Craig Esherick's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2009. 2. In John Thompson III's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2013. 3. In 2013 JT III signed a second six year extension that carried him to 2019. There seems reasonable public information that at the fourth year of a contract for men's basketball, a six year extension is the norm at Georgetown, or at least the recent trend. An extension of only three years, however odious it is right now, could be considered a hedge against committing the University to six years along the lines of what Craig Esherick and John Thompson III eventually signed. Despite what you may see on Twitter, it's worth remembering that the journalist which reported an extension, Jon Rothstein, reported in February that "Exact terms of the extension and how much of it is guaranteed is still unknown." To date, he has not provided any further update on this. Thanks for the response. The JT3 extension in his fourth season was obviously merited given the Sweet 16 and Final Four, and I think the second one in 2013 was justified too given that we had basically been a top 25 team almost every year for the previous 10 years (and yes, we had the bad November results, but we had great regular seasons). I would agree that the Esherick and Ewing extensions made no sense, though. It may prove that Georgetown makes silly decisions. That said, the Esherick contract was so small compared to modern basketball contracts, it was a much smaller impact. As for Ewing's contract, A idan Curran (not sure if you credit him or not) said: But, I agree we know nothing for sure, the parties could voluntarily change their agreement, etc. If I were Ewing, I would want every penny, though, and I don't blame him, since Georgetown made the bad deal, not him.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 9, 2022 0:29:27 GMT -5
No inside information here--relying on public releases such as GUHoyas.com or the Post. 1. In Craig Esherick's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2009. 2. In John Thompson III's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2013. 3. In 2013 JT III signed a second six year extension that carried him to 2019. There seems reasonable public information that at the fourth year of a contract for men's basketball, a six year extension is the norm at Georgetown, or at least the recent trend. An extension of only three years, however odious it is right now, could be considered a hedge against committing the University to six years along the lines of what Craig Esherick and John Thompson III eventually signed. Despite what you may see on Twitter, it's worth remembering that the journalist which reported an extension, Jon Rothstein, reported in February that "Exact terms of the extension and how much of it is guaranteed is still unknown." To date, he has not provided any further update on this. Thanks for the response. The JT3 extension in his fourth season was obviously merited given the Sweet 16 and Final Four, and I think the second one in 2013 was justified too given that we had basically been a top 25 team almost every year for the previous 10 years (and yes, we had the bad November results, but we had great regular seasons). I would agree that the Esherick and Ewing extensions made no sense, though. It may prove that Georgetown makes silly decisions. That said, the Esherick contract was so small compared to modern basketball contracts, it was a much smaller impact. As for Ewing's contract, A idan Curran (not sure if you credit him or not) said: But, I agree we know nothing for sure, the parties could voluntarily change their agreement, etc. If I were Ewing, I would want every penny, though, and I don't blame him, since Georgetown made the bad deal, not him. Since DeGioia became president in 2001, were these contracts negotiated and agreed to by the same group of people, that is Jack, Falk, JT2, and one of the three coaches (advised by two of those parties)? Is that why the contracts, except for Pat’s new extension, share similar characteristics (i.e., term, undeserved yet guaranteed escalators, no reported buyout, etc.)?
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 9, 2022 7:55:08 GMT -5
1. In Craig Esherick's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2009. 2. In John Thompson III's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2013. 3. In 2013 JT III signed a second six year extension that carried him to 2019. There seems reasonable public information that at the fourth year of a contract for men's basketball, a six year extension is the norm at Georgetown, or at least the recent trend. An extension of only three years, however odious it is right now, could be considered a hedge against committing the University to six years along the lines of what Craig Esherick and John Thompson III eventually signed. I'm not sure these are right - Esherick signed a 6 year deal in 1999 that would take him to 2005, and then in 2003 - with two years left on his deal - signed a 4 year extension that would take him to 2009. Esherick was fired the next year in 2004. www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2003/05/01/esherick-gets-four-more-years/6de01172-d280-4d3d-8b73-7d1055dcaddc/Given the fact that he had to fire two coaches (Esherick in 2004 with 5 years left on his deal, and then JT3 in 2017 with two years left on his deal) you would think DeGioia would be more conservative about extensions, but my view has been that he sees being fiscally imprudent and guaranteeing coaches long contracts gives them a barrier from public criticism and an excuse for why he shouldn't take action (How can I fire Patrick Ewing, we owe him too much money!). We're where we are now because DeGioia keeps making the same fiscal mistakes and builds in no out for himself or the University - it's almost the exact same situation as Esherick.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 9, 2022 8:44:15 GMT -5
1. In Craig Esherick's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2009. 2. In John Thompson III's fourth season he signed a six year extension through 2013. 3. In 2013 JT III signed a second six year extension that carried him to 2019. There seems reasonable public information that at the fourth year of a contract for men's basketball, a six year extension is the norm at Georgetown, or at least the recent trend. An extension of only three years, however odious it is right now, could be considered a hedge against committing the University to six years along the lines of what Craig Esherick and John Thompson III eventually signed. I'm not sure these are right - Esherick signed a 6 year deal in 1999 that would take him to 2005, and then in 2003 - with two years left on his deal - signed a 4 year extension that would take him to 2009. Esherick was fired the next year in 2004. www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2003/05/01/esherick-gets-four-more-years/6de01172-d280-4d3d-8b73-7d1055dcaddc/Given the fact that he had to fire two coaches (Esherick in 2004 with 5 years left on his deal, and then JT3 in 2017 with two years left on his deal) you would think DeGioia would be more conservative about extensions, but my view has been that he sees being fiscally imprudent and guaranteeing coaches long contracts gives them a barrier from public criticism and an excuse for why he shouldn't take action (How can I fire Patrick Ewing, we owe him too much money!). We're where we are now because DeGioia keeps making the same fiscal mistakes and builds in no out for himself or the University - it's almost the exact same situation as Esherick. Maybe Jack views these extensions as buried pensions… Given to these coaches, Thompson insiders all, in lieu of a gold watch…
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 9, 2022 13:30:49 GMT -5
Looks like our Chief of Staff getting some Chief of Staff things accomplished today:
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Dec 9, 2022 13:33:35 GMT -5
Looks like our Chief of Staff getting some Chief of Staff things accomplished today: Suppression of opposition media, did Ronny learn that while in school here? Sounds like a productive day
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 9, 2022 13:35:47 GMT -5
Looks like our Chief of Staff getting some Chief of Staff things accomplished today: Very Thompson… very Trump! Both are thin-skinned, entitled, hate criticism and will blacklist critics…
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 9, 2022 21:49:23 GMT -5
Looks like our Chief of Staff getting some Chief of Staff things accomplished today: Very Thompson… very Trump! Both are thin-skinned, entitled, hate criticism and will blacklist critics… Very Twitter.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 10, 2022 0:37:25 GMT -5
If a winless season in the Big East brought about little in the way of institutional changes, hoping for something to suddenly change seems a bit like tilting at windmills. And, for those that get the reference and haven't read the book or don't get the reference because they haven't read the book, don't read the book. You're missing nothing but the time you won't get back for having read it.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 13, 2023 10:12:45 GMT -5
Exactly, so how would he go about convincing an in demand coach to choose Gtown over their other options? What does the program do well besides spend 15 million dollars? This is why you need to hire a coach that's a force of nature and that is going to craft the program as he wants it and push aside the nonsense that prevents him from achieving that goal. This will likely require cleaning house. Right now, the program is not doing anything well, but bring in a good coach and that would change overnight. You do point to the biggest problem, which is, I don't think DeGioia or the Board have the desire/inspiration to actually do a real search and hire someone who might actually turn things around. I think they're looking for the easy way out, which is why they ratified Patrick Ewing as John Thompson's favorite son. DeGioia likely figured it was a way to keep John Thompson Jr. happy, bring a famous alumni back into the fold, and go about his business. Georgetown does not have an interventionist President, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think for some coaches, that would be seen as a good thing, in that the coach can do whatever they want, but that won't work if the new coach has to fit into the current structure where people like Ronny Thompson are gatekeepers. Really, I think this program and DeGioia are so far removed from anything resembling a real coaching search and running a real successful sports program that they are basically bumbling along with inertia, which is how we ended up with Ewing. I mean, even the successes we had was sort of lucky: 1999: John Thompson Jr. leaves at the age of 58 (one can even quibble that Thompson's last decade with the program were problematic other than the Iverson/Page years, but let's leave that for another day, he deserved to be coaching), and Esherick slots in. Would Esherick have gotten the job on his own? Who knows, because the mid-season departure sort of set Esherick on the path in motion. And clearly, Thompson was okay with it. So that's good enough. 2004: This is where the luck comes in. At the time, alumni and fans still care about the program in big enough numbers to throw a fit, especially after Esherick proclaims he'll be around for years. So, Esherick gets fired. As it so happens, there is an up-and-coming coach with real head coaching experience, who has had a lot of success at Princeton. And he happens to be a Thompson! Bingo! Jackpot. They hire JT3 (who I do think was qualified, though I am not sure that was why they hired him), and he has a lot of early success with the Final Four, it looks like a winner. 2017: By all accounts, alumni/fan unrest (most of which was rooted in wanting to chart a new path away from the Thompsons), Board unrest, combined with Alonzo Mourning whining about his son's playing time, force the issue, and John Thompson III got fired. I still think if JT3 had handled PR better, he might have squeezed more time. After all, his performance was not nearly as bad as Ewing's. Sure, he had the early exits, and fans were upset about it but not necessarily rational (saying he should be fired because of Ohio or FGCU made no sense, most of us would kill to be a high seed in the tournament and be over .500 at this point, I'd take JT3's tenure from 2005-2013 any day), but it wasn't until 2016/2017 that the wheels fell off. I am confident there was no desire by either DeGioia or John Thompson Jr. to make a move, but it was forced. So what do they do? Follow the same formula, next man up! Except, there as no next Thompson up, as Ronny had already disgraced himself at Ball State. So, John Thompson calls Patrick Ewing (who by all reports wanted an NBA head coaching job and never even thought of coaching college before the intervention), and convinces him to come back to his alma mater. Sure, he had no experience with college ball, no familiarity with the college game, but he was in the "family," he had great name recognition, and he was an alumnus. Oh, and they can quietly bring Ronny Thompson back into the fold to help Ewing out after all (especially given his stellar Ball State experience), while hiding his role and employment status for a few years. Checks all the boxes. First few years are rough, players leave, but hey in 2021 we win the BET! This is great. Patrick has had some success, let's keep him around forever, and give him a $12 million extension despite, at the time, having a 37% winning percentage in the Big East regular season games, never finishing above .500, and never even getting close to an at-large bid. But, Patrick won the BET! Let's give him an extension, even though he's got 2 years left on the original deal. And, on top of that, let's lock ourselves into that contract by not including a buyout for a reasonable fee. But, hey, shhh. COVID is happening, and we need to raise funds, so let's keep the extension a secret. [NOTE: No rational person or program allows that extension, which makes me extremely suspect of how the whole program and decision-making operates, and makes me pessimistic that even if there is a change, it'll be a good one.] March 2022: Ewing has an abysmal season. So, we need change! So, we need to clean house, except for Ronny Thompson, who is actually going to help find some new assistants. Per reports, he reaches out to guys like Kevin Broadus, thinking that he's going to leave a head coaching role to join our program as an assistant to Patrick Ewing. And presumably, Ronny reached out to Nickelberry and Baldwin, but on the latter, not before we try to hire Jordan Brooks, who cannot bring his prized recruit along, so never mind. Oh, and by the way, we owe Ewing a ton of money, and the university at large might not like paying that out (if they even know, they probably don't, so let's not tell them!), so let's not even consider a parting of ways. Have to keep it on the down low. December 2022: Fast forward to today. The season begins terribly, despite better talent. What to do? In all likelihood, the powers that involved are trying to figure out ways to just keep the same train moving forward. If I had to guess, if Ewing somehow survives this season, you'll see one of the assistants fired or scapegoated, and the players thrown even more under the bus than they already are. Then we'll restock with new players (after all, cannot trade for them like in the NBA), and show them video, point out their mistakes, and act befuddled and confused as to what else can possibly be done to get better. Bump - hoyasaxa2003 as usual was spot-on.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 13, 2023 10:21:12 GMT -5
Thanks, the only thing I would change about the post above (other than some bad typos), is to add that that there were actually articles back in 1999 that indicated that John Thompson Jr. did handpick Esherick and told Father O'Donovan to hire him. Hat tip to prhoya for spotlighting those articles.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 13, 2023 12:21:22 GMT -5
In Spanish, it’s called “dedazo”. tureng.com/en/spanish-english/dedazoIt comes from the word “dedo” which means finger. “-azo” Figuratively, it’s the ruler pointing his/her finger at who he/she is designating to a position without following any other rules or protocols.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 13, 2023 12:34:35 GMT -5
Wasn't Ronny credited with "teaching Roy Hibbert how to run" or some such back in like 2005? I think he's been "around" for quite a while now. Who knows how long he's been on the payroll. It's possible that the deal wasn't "fire JTIII but hire Ronny," but rather "fire JTIII but keep Ronny."
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 13, 2023 12:38:04 GMT -5
Thanks, the only thing I would change about the post above (other than some bad typos), is to add that that there were actually articles back in 1999 that indicated that John Thompson Jr. did handpick Esherick and told Father O'Donovan to hire him. Hat tip to prhoya for spotlighting those articles. Should this be a surprise. I’m sure Boeheim hand picked the new coach so he can still have influence/be part of the program. Or coach K picking Scheyer and convincing Amaker to turn down the Duke job.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 13, 2023 13:32:02 GMT -5
Wasn't Ronny credited with "teaching Roy Hibbert how to run" or some such back in like 2005? I think he's been "around" for quite a while now. Who knows how long he's been on the payroll. It's possible that the deal wasn't "fire JTIII but hire Ronny," but rather "fire JTIII but keep Ronny." He ran with Sweetney to help Big Mike lose weight.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 13, 2023 13:52:11 GMT -5
Wasn't Ronny credited with "teaching Roy Hibbert how to run" or some such back in like 2005? I think he's been "around" for quite a while now. Who knows how long he's been on the payroll. It's possible that the deal wasn't "fire JTIII but hire Ronny," but rather "fire JTIII but keep Ronny." He ran with Sweetney to help Big Mike lose weight. Hibbert, I think. "He called me after his first workout to ask me that," Ronnie said Friday. "To put it bluntly, Roy was awful. He couldn't run. No, really, a basketball player on scholarship at a major Division I university could not run. “They put him on the side with [Hoyas men’s basketball trainer] Lorry Michel to teach him. When I got him on a treadmill, I thought he was [messing] with me. I put the speed at 5.0. He couldn’t do it; he wasn’t coordinated enough.” Eight years later, Ronnie pauses to contemplate an extreme makeover, the transformation of a doe-eyed, gawky freshman to one of the most complete big men in pro basketball. Ronnie Thompson, brother of Georgetown coach John Thompson III, directed Hibbert's two-a-day workouts leading up to the draft and focused on NBA-style elements.-- from Indy Star, July 18, 2013.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 13, 2023 13:58:18 GMT -5
Ronnie Thompson, brother of Georgetown coach John Thompson III, directed Hibbert's two-a-day workouts leading up to the draft and focused on NBA-style elements.-- from Indy Star, July 18, 2013. Chris Wright talked about these workouts in a thing he did on his DawgTawk Instagram not too long ago.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 13, 2023 13:59:54 GMT -5
It was Sweetney too. Ronny pretty much stayed on Sweetney to make sure he lost weight and stay in shape during Sweets time at G-town. This was when Ronny was an assistant for Esh.
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