EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 23:14:56 GMT -5
How often does an elite player transfer? Didn’t Yurt have some problems in Raleigh being Turkish? You also might not be giving Rice enough credit. He may make more 3s than anyone else in NCAA Div. 1. Out of those 3 you pick out Rice? Give me the other 2 over Rice all day. Give me Allen as the starting PG and I'm good. Every PG that played next to Mac looked worse than they really were. I wouldn't trade 4(possibly 5) seasons with Dante over 1 with Allen, this comes from a fan who isn't a big fan of how Dante plays btw...
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 19, 2021 3:56:45 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but...what is the rationale with transfers? Are we content being what Bob Huggins was at Cincinnati, or worse, simply recruit all grad transfers (most of whom won't bother to graduate) and simply rebuild each and every year? That's not what basketball at Georgetown should be about. Instead, recruit some local kids from the WCAC who aren't going to jump at the first shiny offer elsewhere and who will be alumni in the fullest sense of the word. #1 - I too hate how many Hoya fans seem to want the Hoyas to find STARTERS via graduate player transfers each season. I hate even worse how they want these dudes to be granted six years of playing time. Its ridiculous how these fans never seem to trust the process of the regular high school recruits coming in, taking their lumps as they learn and eventually becoming starters themselves. Instead they have this notion of these more routine type of recruits perpetually being on the bench as a result of being displaced or pushed to the back in the favor of grad transfers coming in year after year. I don't get it. I read people hoping Rice can get an extra year or, God forbid, Carey coming back for a 20th year of college hoops. I really appreciate what these guys have brought to the table but no thanks for either of them coming back. I want the minutes to go to the current sophs and freshmen we have currently on the roster as well as the new high school recruits we have coming in. If for some reason the coaching staff needs to fill a hole and have to resort to bring in a grad player for next season's team so be it but I would prefer such a player is only brought in for depth, not a starting position. #2 - That said, DFW, hysteria appears to have overcome your judgment. You seem to insinuate that Ewing is running some rogue problem and dirtying the reputation of the Georgetown program by bringing in some black-listed mercenary agents. I don't know the numbers in terms of how many if any of these players have gotten their graduate degrees or even whether they realistically can do so in one season, but what I am aware of is that Ewing and his staff have brought in non-troublesome grads who from all indications take classwork seriously and have been model athletes for the university. Guys like Terrell Allen and Don Carey. Rice made the dean list's annually while he was at the freakin' Citadel for four seasons. Who would take issue with such a guy like that joining the Hoya ranks? Placing these young men, even indirectly, in the same category as Bob Huggins' Cincy collection of JUCO players is tacky and beneath you. In my opinion such a remark would have likely gotten deleted by the mods if it came from someone else other than you. You appear to be just itching for a fight in regards to anything about the Ewing coaching era I suppose; so much so that you created a thread to get this off your chest rather than responding to the issue in the actual threads in which it was initially brought up. #3 - Ewing and his staff spend as much time in high school guys watching WCAC teams as any Hoya staff in perhaps four decades. I have been a Hoya fan since the days of Alonzo. I eventually went to one of those WCAC schools (DeMatha). The legend of Big John not going out of his way to take interest in DeMatha players or at times WCAC players in general is LEGENDARY. Since you are one of the historians of Gtown hoops please point out the number of WCAC players on JT's teams. Its relatoively low, especially after JT's first ten years. The situation didn't improve during Esherick's short stint either. Things did get better with III's run for sure and he brought in a collection of WCAC studs (whom he apparently would later fail to form strong bonds with based on remarks made by said players). Ewing has not matched III so far as WCAC and overall local success. But while that may be the result of Ewing not being as charismatic as III when pitching to a recruit it certainly isn't the result of lack an effort. Ewing actually hired a young assistant coach who came from the WCAC. From all that I know he spends more time in the local gyms than III did and unlike III, folks in those gyms find Ewing far more engaging and approachable than they did III who pretty much tried to isolate himself from folks, including fellow coaches, when they happened to be in the same buildings with him. Stop painting a misleading picture of Ewing being a guy who has no interest in bringing in local prospects. Most of the players on Ewing's rosters were second or third choices who had a spot available to them because the seemingly first choices, a bunch of whom were local guys, thought it was better to go to Va Tech, Xavier, Pitt, James Madison, Miami, etc. Point of clarification: DFW did not create this thread, I moved the first 8 or so posts out of a player thread because the discussion was not about that player, it was about this topic.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 19, 2021 6:21:51 GMT -5
This program can’t wait for “maybe next year” anymore. It has to win eventually. How have grabbing transfers changed this narrative for the program? Sorry - this was in support of transfers replying to comments that transfers stunt the development of our freshmen.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 19, 2021 7:48:04 GMT -5
s tacky and beneath you. In my opinion such a remark would have likely gotten deleted by the mods if it came from someone else other than you. You appear to be just itching How does Tre King fit within your narrative for point #2? I don't know enough about Tre King because he did not suit up for the team. You see I wouldn't have known jack about Kaiden Rice either if the same had occurred with him. I don't send as much time online anymore getting into the minutia of Hoya news so you won't find me spending a whole lot of minutes looking into info regarding transfers. However King wasn't even a graduate, right? Wasn't he a junior year student looking to take advantage of the whole transfer portal thing? If so that makes him different in my estimation to actual graduate transfers.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 19, 2021 7:51:19 GMT -5
y Point of clarification: DFW did not create this thread, I moved the first 8 or so posts out of a player thread because the discussion was not about that player, it was about this topic. My mistake.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 19, 2021 8:04:00 GMT -5
It’s obviously a mix. You need to develop a core and then use transfers to fill gaps. Ewing has done well with the latter, but has failed at the former. If this current group stays together, even if Aminu declares this year, we have a solid core for next year with good contributions already this year from Dante, Beard, Holloway, Malcolm, Tim, Ryan. Billingsley has shown signs and with a year of college ball under his belt will be a solid contributor next. Riley is a question mark because he was likely never fully healthy this year, but if he’s fully healthy he could be solid as a soph. Aminu is a hard one to replace directly but a more cohesive core can go a long way to doing so. Carey and Rice are important but are also easily replaceable in the transfer market. Particularly the way Ewing has given Rice the green light, I’d have to expect other sharp shooters will be very interested. Carey brings senior leadership, but upperclassmen Dante and Holloway will bring more of that next season. Plus we have another good frosh group coming in who can hopefully be brought along more deliberately. Of course all of this is moot if half these guys take off. But the way this group has progressed, if they stay together and Ewing adds a couple good transfers, next season will be very different. Agree with this take. I think that transfers will become an essential part of any program's success, except for the few bluebloods that can always count on a steady flow of 5* recruits. However, the goal for Ewing has to be limiting transfers to fill the key needs and not becoming a program trying to introduce 7-8 new players to each other every year. So far it has not worked out well, but you can see the focus in what was supposed to be this year--Tre King fills the need in the post and Rice provides the shooting on the wing. Next year is too soon to predict but I think it will be a major disappointment to many of us if he cannot hold on to this freshman class, understanding that if Aminu's offensive game progresses over the next two months he could be gone.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 19, 2021 13:00:22 GMT -5
Out of those 3 you pick out Rice? Give me the other 2 over Rice all day. Give me Allen as the starting PG and I'm good. Every PG that played next to Mac looked worse than they really were. I wouldn't trade 4(possibly 5) seasons with Dante over 1 with Allen, this comes from a fan who isn't a big fan of how Dante plays btw... I don't know what this has to do with anything. I would take 1 yera over Allen over this year and probably peak Dante but we won't know what that is for a while I guess.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 19, 2021 13:11:21 GMT -5
It’s obviously a mix. You need to develop a core and then use transfers to fill gaps. Ewing has done well with the latter, but has failed at the former. If this current group stays together, even if Aminu declares this year, we have a solid core for next year with good contributions already this year from Dante, Beard, Holloway, Malcolm, Tim, Ryan. Billingsley has shown signs and with a year of college ball under his belt will be a solid contributor next. Riley is a question mark because he was likely never fully healthy this year, but if he’s fully healthy he could be solid as a soph. Aminu is a hard one to replace directly but a more cohesive core can go a long way to doing so. Carey and Rice are important but are also easily replaceable in the transfer market. Particularly the way Ewing has given Rice the green light, I’d have to expect other sharp shooters will be very interested. Carey brings senior leadership, but upperclassmen Dante and Holloway will bring more of that next season. Plus we have another good frosh group coming in who can hopefully be brought along more deliberately. Of course all of this is moot if half these guys take off. But the way this group has progressed, if they stay together and Ewing adds a couple good transfers, next season will be very different. Agree with this take. I think that transfers will become an essential part of any program's success, except for the few bluebloods that can always count on a steady flow of 5* recruits. However, the goal for Ewing has to be limiting transfers to fill the key needs and not becoming a program trying to introduce 7-8 new players to each other every year. So far it has not worked out well, but you can see the focus in what was supposed to be this year--Tre King fills the need in the post and Rice provides the shooting on the wing. Next year is too soon to predict but I think it will be a major disappointment to many of us if he cannot hold on to this freshman class, understanding that if Aminu's offensive game progresses over the next two months he could be gone. I would have loved to see how Ewing deployed King. I don't think it is how everyone thinks he would have. Maybe now that Tim is hurt. I think King would have helped but we still would have been pretty reliant on Rice getting hot and I don't know where those minutes would have come from. The legend of King is bigger than the reality of King at this point.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 19, 2021 13:19:48 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade 4(possibly 5) seasons with Dante over 1 with Allen, this comes from a fan who isn't a big fan of how Dante plays btw... I don't know what this has to do with anything. I would take 1 yera over Allen over this year and probably peak Dante but we won't know what that is for a while I guess. The key is landing a great PG and keeping him. Someone like say Akinjo. Trying to get an underrated PG that will be good as a senior means you are likely to have 3 underwhelming seasons and 1 good one. I would think at Georgetown that would be under our standards though these days who knows.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Dec 19, 2021 13:41:57 GMT -5
To MCI's points: 1. Nothing against the players we have but I think grad transfers can be a crutch that would be better spent investing in more players like Collin Holloway. The only way you build is from the start, and some transfers come in with their own ups and downs baked in which a coach isn't going to shake in one year. 2. My response on transfers came from an earlier post who said we should go more for one year transfers to get good, because "that's how things are today". I disagree. The program isn't well served by players who are here for an extra year on their resume but are not here to take advantage of the degree available to them. Allen got his M.A., Carey will, but Pryor and Bile didn't and we probably won't be seeing them back on campus or closely tied to the program anytime soon if it wasn't important to them. The idea of the deflated basketball is more valuable now than ever, and GU should be something more than a way-station to the European leagues for these kids. FWIW, the Huggins reference is not provocative but illustrative--he brought in juco kids that made his grad numbers horrible, but he won. Was that the best strategy? When he left, UC was 12-4 in the Big East and 25-8 overall. Mick Cronin inherited nothing--his first year at UC the Bearcats went 2-14 in the Big East. I don't see Ewing pursing an all-out push to go to short-term players, but I do see some fans that wouldn't mind if he did. 3. I would not mislead people suggesting Ewing et al. are not pursuing the WCAC; by contrast, I see the WCAC and DCIAA talent as the kind of kids that can provide Ewing some much-needed stability to teams going forward. Yes, he works harder on local talent than JT III did, but we haven't seen that manifest itself in commitments. It takes two, of course, so the local coaches have to build a level of trust that Georgetown will provide this stability to their kids. That said, an up and coming kid from DeMatha or St. John's is worth more long term than taking a flyer on the Galen Alexanders and Myron Gardners of the college recruiting world. Just addressing the inconsistency of your response to points 1 and 3. In 3, you cherry pick some late signings that didn't work out. BUT, in 1, you, correctly I think, cite as successful our late signing (of a Louisiana kid) , Colin Holloway. Would one of the DeMatha kids that Blakeney signed for Howard have been a better long term choice than Colin, for building our team? I actually don't disagree with the merits of signing local kids, but only if the staff see them as equal to or better than the kids we can pull from elsewhere in he country. And, we have gone local in some of our grad transfer pickups, Allen and Carey. If one of our recruiters, Kirby, is recognized as having the ability to both identify and bring in talent from the South, that's a strength, not a weakness.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 19, 2021 14:11:06 GMT -5
To MCI's points: 1. Nothing against the players we have but I think grad transfers can be a crutch that would be better spent investing in more players like Collin Holloway. The only way you build is from the start, and some transfers come in with their own ups and downs baked in which a coach isn't going to shake in one year. 2. My response on transfers came from an earlier post who said we should go more for one year transfers to get good, because "that's how things are today". I disagree. The program isn't well served by players who are here for an extra year on their resume but are not here to take advantage of the degree available to them. Allen got his M.A., Carey will, but Pryor and Bile didn't and we probably won't be seeing them back on campus or closely tied to the program anytime soon if it wasn't important to them. The idea of the deflated basketball is more valuable now than ever, and GU should be something more than a way-station to the European leagues for these kids. FWIW, the Huggins reference is not provocative but illustrative--he brought in juco kids that made his grad numbers horrible, but he won. Was that the best strategy? When he left, UC was 12-4 in the Big East and 25-8 overall. Mick Cronin inherited nothing--his first year at UC the Bearcats went 2-14 in the Big East. I don't see Ewing pursing an all-out push to go to short-term players, but I do see some fans that wouldn't mind if he did. 3. I would not mislead people suggesting Ewing et al. are not pursuing the WCAC; by contrast, I see the WCAC and DCIAA talent as the kind of kids that can provide Ewing some much-needed stability to teams going forward. Yes, he works harder on local talent than JT III did, but we haven't seen that manifest itself in commitments. It takes two, of course, so the local coaches have to build a level of trust that Georgetown will provide this stability to their kids. That said, an up and coming kid from DeMatha or St. John's is worth more long term than taking a flyer on the Galen Alexanders and Myron Gardners of the college recruiting world. Just addressing the inconsistency of your response to points 1 and 3. In 3, you cherry pick some late signings that didn't work out. BUT, in 1, you, correctly I think, cite as successful our late signing (of a Louisiana kid) , Colin Holloway. Would one of the DeMatha kids that Blakeney signed for Howard have been a better long term choice than Colin, for building our team? I actually don't disagree with the merits of signing local kids, but only if the staff see them as equal to or better than the kids we can pull from elsewhere in he country. And, we have gone local in some of our grad transfer pickups, Allen and Carey. If one of our recruiters, Kirby, is recognized as having the ability to both identify and bring in talent from the South, that's a strength, not a weakness. I certainly agree about Kirby and that approach, but let’s recognize that there are “intangibles” to having local players provided, obviously, that they meet a certain standard of play. Local recruits beget other local recruits and help generate local enthusiasm and attendance— something that is sorely lacking.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 19, 2021 14:17:50 GMT -5
Given that we have really only had one season of free transfers without sitting, I think it's hard to say what will happen. Clearly, without any consequence to transferring anymore, the frequency of transfers will go up as it did last year. But, I will be curious to see, after 4-5 years of these rules, what percentage of guys stay at their school and how many transfer.
Keep in mind that while we have had a lot of roster turnover, except for last season, the old rules (requiring players to sit) have been in place. Sure, some of those guys got waivers. I am concerned that the ease of leaving the team is going to only make our roster turnover even worse.
The real key is, can we keep guys who are our starters and who get a lot of minutes from transferring? Ewing has not had a ton of success on that. I realize it's fashionable to dump on Akinjo, but the fact is he got a ton of minutes, he was a featured player, and he essentially had the keys to the kingdom, and he left anyway. Same goes for McClung, and more recently, Wahab. If we cannot keep core starter-level players, that's a real problem.
It's one thing if you lose guys to the NBA (for example, if Aminu got drafted), but so far that's not why we are losing anybody. Sure, transfers play a bigger role, and will going forward. But, I still think that most teams are going to have a core of freshman each year around which they build a team.
Transfers will surely fill in gaps (maybe even big ones), but you cannot count on transfers. For example, the odds that we could possibly find a transfer to fully fill Aminu's shoes if he left for the NBA are virtually zero. The same was true of Wahab. We lost a very good big man, and yet, there wasn't somebody of the same quality knocking on Georgetown's door to transfer in.
The other issue too, is now with the free-for-all nature of transfers, literally every program will be looking for these kids. We simply cannot count on building a team around that, though I do think transfers can be really nice additions to a core we already have--if we can manage to keep them on the team.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 19, 2021 14:23:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade 4(possibly 5) seasons with Dante over 1 with Allen, this comes from a fan who isn't a big fan of how Dante plays btw... I don't know what this has to do with anything. I would take 1 yera over Allen over this year and probably peak Dante but we won't know what that is for a while I guess.This is my point, I'd rather give kids time to develop within the program... I liked Allen a lot but he wouldn't have turned this team into an upper-level BE team this season..
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2021 14:27:22 GMT -5
I realize it's fashionable to dump on Akinjo, but the fact is he got a ton of minutes, he was a featured player, and he essentially had the keys to the kingdom, and he left anyway. Same goes for McClung, and more recently, Wahab. If we cannot keep core starter-level players, that's a real problem. Akinjo left UConn and Arizona as well. He's on his 4th school McLung left Rutgers and Texas Tech and likely would have left Texas Tech if he had stayed in college. Wahab will likely leave Maryland. These dude are going to leave when they want to no matter what you try to do.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 19, 2021 14:42:45 GMT -5
I realize it's fashionable to dump on Akinjo, but the fact is he got a ton of minutes, he was a featured player, and he essentially had the keys to the kingdom, and he left anyway. Same goes for McClung, and more recently, Wahab. If we cannot keep core starter-level players, that's a real problem. Akinjo left UConn and Arizona as well. He's on his 4th school McLung left Rutgers and Texas Tech and likely would have left Texas Tech if he had stayed in college. Wahab will likely leave Maryland. These dude are going to leave when they want to no matter what you try to do. Agreed, although there may be some question as to whether the combination of Mac and Akinjo had something to do with it.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 19, 2021 14:58:06 GMT -5
I realize it's fashionable to dump on Akinjo, but the fact is he got a ton of minutes, he was a featured player, and he essentially had the keys to the kingdom, and he left anyway. Same goes for McClung, and more recently, Wahab. If we cannot keep core starter-level players, that's a real problem. Akinjo left UConn and Arizona as well. He's on his 4th school McLung left Rutgers and Texas Tech and likely would have left Texas Tech if he had stayed in college. Wahab will likely leave Maryland. These dude are going to leave when they want to no matter what you try to do. You're right but the situations aren't all the same. Both McClung/Texas Tech and Wahab/Maryland involve coaching changes. That's different from Akinjo, who cannot stay anywhere for any period of time. And, again, if this is the case we have to stop recruiting guys who are going to do that, or make better efforts to keep them on board. I agree with you some guys will leave no matter what, but when it becomes a pattern it's harder to discount. As I said, if it's a pattern, then we are recruiting the wrong guys.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 19, 2021 16:56:47 GMT -5
I realize it's fashionable to dump on Akinjo, but the fact is he got a ton of minutes, he was a featured player, and he essentially had the keys to the kingdom, and he left anyway. Same goes for McClung, and more recently, Wahab. If we cannot keep core starter-level players, that's a real problem. Akinjo left UConn and Arizona as well. He's on his 4th school McLung left Rutgers and Texas Tech and likely would have left Texas Tech if he had stayed in college. Wahab will likely leave Maryland. These dude are going to leave when they want to no matter what you try to do. To me a person can't leave a place they've never been so counting Uconn & Rutgers against Akinjo & McClung is suspect. Akinjo de-committed from Uconn due to the firing of Ollie & left Arizona after Miller was fired, hard for me to blame him for either. The same goes for McClung leaving TTU after Beard left..
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 19, 2021 17:13:12 GMT -5
James is still in school and getting a lot of run on a very, very good basketball team. However it came about, I have a hard time faulting him for getting there.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2021 17:44:27 GMT -5
Akinjo left UConn and Arizona as well. He's on his 4th school McLung left Rutgers and Texas Tech and likely would have left Texas Tech if he had stayed in college. Wahab will likely leave Maryland. These dude are going to leave when they want to no matter what you try to do. To me a person can't leave a place they've never been so counting Uconn & Rutgers against Akinjo & McClung is suspect. Akinjo de-committed from Uconn due to the firing of Ollie & left Arizona after Miller was fired, hard for me to blame him for either. The same goes for McClung leaving TTU after Beard left.. Who got fired from Rutgers for McClung to decommit?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 19, 2021 18:45:20 GMT -5
To me a person can't leave a place they've never been so counting Uconn & Rutgers against Akinjo & McClung is suspect. Akinjo de-committed from Uconn due to the firing of Ollie & left Arizona after Miller was fired, hard for me to blame him for either. The same goes for McClung leaving TTU after Beard left.. Who got fired from Rutgers for McClung to decommit? No one, he stated he didn’t feel comfortable on his OV so he changed his mind…
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