jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Dec 18, 2021 18:07:21 GMT -5
How often does an elite player transfer? Didn’t Yurt have some problems in Raleigh being Turkish? You also might not be giving Rice enough credit. He may make more 3s than anyone else in NCAA Div. 1. Fairly often actually but I’m not the one pushing this narrative of Gtown going for “highly touted” transfers over HS kids Name some of the players you think are elite and transferring? We may have different definitions.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 18, 2021 18:20:01 GMT -5
Pryor, Yurtseven, Allen, Carey and Rice are all key additions.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 18:37:30 GMT -5
Fairly often actually but I’m not the one pushing this narrative of Gtown going for “highly touted” transfers over HS kids Name some of the players you think are elite and transferring? We may have different definitions. Well, you're using the word elite not me. I stated top transfers in my post... sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home/rankings/2020-final?authuser=0Take a look at kids like Burnett, Askew, Timberlake, Garcia, Peavy etc.. all were top 40 kids coming out of HS...
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 18, 2021 18:48:59 GMT -5
Based on the current roster and incoming recruits, transfers are necessary if we are going to be any better next year.
At this rate it seems the transfer route is becoming as important as recruiting. Teams have quickly turned their entire roster over and have had success via this route.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 21:17:51 GMT -5
Based on the current roster and incoming recruits, transfers are necessary if we are going to be any better next year. At this rate it seems the transfer route is becoming as important as recruiting. Teams have quickly turned their entire roster over and have had success via this route. But Gtown has pretty good young players in the freshman & soph classes with two more coming in, to me the transfer route may stunt some of their growth... If King were still here, would Holloway or JB have played that much?
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 18, 2021 21:19:16 GMT -5
Based on the current roster and incoming recruits, transfers are necessary if we are going to be any better next year. At this rate it seems the transfer route is becoming as important as recruiting. Teams have quickly turned their entire roster over and have had success via this route. But Gtown has pretty good young players in the freshman & soph classes with two more coming in, to me the transfer route may stunt some of their growth... If King were still here, would Holloway or JB have played that much? I’d trade what we’ve seen of Holloway and JB’s development for more wins.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 21:38:46 GMT -5
But Gtown has pretty good young players in the freshman & soph classes with two more coming in, to me the transfer route may stunt some of their growth... If King were still here, would Holloway or JB have played that much? I’d trade what we’ve seen of Holloway and JB’s development for the potential of more wins. Fixed it for you
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 18, 2021 21:49:10 GMT -5
This program can’t wait for “maybe next year” anymore. It has to win eventually.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 18, 2021 21:49:15 GMT -5
Based on the current roster and incoming recruits, transfers are necessary if we are going to be any better next year. At this rate it seems the transfer route is becoming as important as recruiting. Teams have quickly turned their entire roster over and have had success via this route. But Gtown has pretty good young players in the freshman & soph classes with two more coming in, to me the transfer route may stunt some of their growth... If King were still here, would Holloway or JB have played that much? I think the transfer (especially grad transfer) portal is so important because so many of the incoming freshmen think they're going to the NBA, whether that's realistic or not. Grad transfers have a more realistic perspective. That difference in attitude and focus is huge. Also, grad transfers are much more known quantities on the collegiate level. So, yes, it's very important to do both but it's less of a gamble with transfers, IMO. Having said that, I'd stay miles away from a guy like Akinjo who, apparently, thinks he's something he's not and keeps leaping at the next better opportunity. I don't blame him for doing so as it's, probably, the best way for him to get recognized as a cog on a good team. But, he's never going to be the player he thought he already was when he arrived at Georgetown. Guys that don't care at all about actual college, unless they're sure-fire one and dones, kill any chance at all of building a culture. It's not just the recruits you land, it's also the recruits you don't go after. Recruiting on court talent is one thing. Evaluating the personalities and off-court stuff in terms of how guys will fit/want to be there has to be much more difficult and time consuming.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Dec 18, 2021 21:49:55 GMT -5
It’s obviously a mix. You need to develop a core and then use transfers to fill gaps. Ewing has done well with the latter, but has failed at the former.
If this current group stays together, even if Aminu declares this year, we have a solid core for next year with good contributions already this year from Dante, Beard, Holloway, Malcolm, Tim, Ryan. Billingsley has shown signs and with a year of college ball under his belt will be a solid contributor next. Riley is a question mark because he was likely never fully healthy this year, but if he’s fully healthy he could be solid as a soph.
Aminu is a hard one to replace directly but a more cohesive core can go a long way to doing so. Carey and Rice are important but are also easily replaceable in the transfer market. Particularly the way Ewing has given Rice the green light, I’d have to expect other sharp shooters will be very interested. Carey brings senior leadership, but upperclassmen Dante and Holloway will bring more of that next season.
Plus we have another good frosh group coming in who can hopefully be brought along more deliberately.
Of course all of this is moot if half these guys take off. But the way this group has progressed, if they stay together and Ewing adds a couple good transfers, next season will be very different.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 18, 2021 21:56:26 GMT -5
It’s obviously a mix. You need to develop a core and then use transfers to fill gaps. Ewing has done well with the latter, but has failed at the former. If this current group stays together, even if Aminu declares this year, we have a solid core for next year with good contributions already this year from Dante, Beard, Holloway, Malcolm, Tim, Ryan. Billingsley has shown signs and with a year of college ball under his belt will be a solid contributor next. Riley is a question mark because he was likely never fully healthy this year, but if he’s fully healthy he could be solid as a soph. Aminu is a hard one to replace directly but a more cohesive core can go a long way to doing so. Carey and Rice are important but are also easily replaceable in the transfer market. Particularly the way Ewing has given Rice the green light, I’d have to expect other sharp shooters will be very interested. Carey brings senior leadership, but upperclassmen Dante and Holloway will bring more of that next season. Plus we have another good frosh group coming in who can hopefully be brought along more deliberately. Of course all of this is moot if half these guys take off. But the way this group has progressed, if they stay together and Ewing adds a couple good transfers, next season will be very different. I think "fail" is a bit strong but your point is well taken. Denver Anglin is, seemingly, already the replacement for Rice so that box can be checked (in pencil). Additional shooters in the way that the game is played now would certainly still help. And, Bass looks like he could be able to bring a bit of everything. He may not be the shooter that Carey is yet but he definitely ratchets up the athleticism for next year's team. With a healthy Riley, Dante, Anglin and Bass, our Hoyas will have a nice combo of speed, athleticism and an elite shooter. If Aminu decides to stay, that's a very solid core of perimeter/slashing players.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 22:07:12 GMT -5
It’s obviously a mix. You need to develop a core and then use transfers to fill gaps. Ewing has done well with the latter, but has failed at the former. If this current group stays together, even if Aminu declares this year, we have a solid core for next year with good contributions already this year from Dante, Beard, Holloway, Malcolm, Tim, Ryan. Billingsley has shown signs and with a year of college ball under his belt will be a solid contributor next. Riley is a question mark because he was likely never fully healthy this year, but if he’s fully healthy he could be solid as a soph. Aminu is a hard one to replace directly but a more cohesive core can go a long way to doing so. Carey and Rice are important but are also easily replaceable in the transfer market. Particularly the way Ewing has given Rice the green light, I’d have to expect other sharp shooters will be very interested. Carey brings senior leadership, but upperclassmen Dante and Holloway will bring more of that next season. Plus we have another good frosh group coming in who can hopefully be brought along more deliberately. Of course all of this is moot if half these guys take off. But the way this group has progressed, if they stay together and Ewing adds a couple good transfers, next season will be very different. I agree with this statement 100%
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 18, 2021 22:25:32 GMT -5
Agree on Carey and most likely Mohammed being gone next year. Need to land some 5th years and transfers. Unpopular opinion but...what is the rationale with transfers? Are we content being what Bob Huggins was at Cincinnati, or worse, simply recruit all grad transfers (most of whom won't bother to graduate) and simply rebuild each and every year? That's not what basketball at Georgetown should be about. Instead, recruit some local kids from the WCAC who aren't going to jump at the first shiny offer elsewhere and who will be alumni in the fullest sense of the word. #1 - I too hate how many Hoya fans seem to want the Hoyas to find STARTERS via graduate player transfers each season. I hate even worse how they want these dudes to be granted six years of playing time. Its ridiculous how these fans never seem to trust the process of the regular high school recruits coming in, taking their lumps as they learn and eventually becoming starters themselves. Instead they have this notion of these more routine type of recruits perpetually being on the bench as a result of being displaced or pushed to the back in the favor of grad transfers coming in year after year. I don't get it. I read people hoping Rice can get an extra year or, God forbid, Carey coming back for a 20th year of college hoops. I really appreciate what these guys have brought to the table but no thanks for either of them coming back. I want the minutes to go to the current sophs and freshmen we have currently on the roster as well as the new high school recruits we have coming in. If for some reason the coaching staff needs to fill a hole and have to resort to bring in a grad player for next season's team so be it but I would prefer such a player is only brought in for depth, not a starting position. #2 - That said, DFW, hysteria appears to have overcome your judgment. You seem to insinuate that Ewing is running some rogue problem and dirtying the reputation of the Georgetown program by bringing in some black-listed mercenary agents. I don't know the numbers in terms of how many if any of these players have gotten their graduate degrees or even whether they realistically can do so in one season, but what I am aware of is that Ewing and his staff have brought in non-troublesome grads who from all indications take classwork seriously and have been model athletes for the university. Guys like Terrell Allen and Don Carey. Rice made the dean list's annually while he was at the freakin' Citadel for four seasons. Who would take issue with such a guy like that joining the Hoya ranks? Placing these young men, even indirectly, in the same category as Bob Huggins' Cincy collection of JUCO players is tacky and beneath you. In my opinion such a remark would have likely gotten deleted by the mods if it came from someone else other than you. You appear to be just itching for a fight in regards to anything about the Ewing coaching era I suppose; so much so that you created a thread to get this off your chest rather than responding to the issue in the actual threads in which it was initially brought up. #3 - Ewing and his staff spend as much time in high school guys watching WCAC teams as any Hoya staff in perhaps four decades. I have been a Hoya fan since the days of Alonzo. I eventually went to one of those WCAC schools (DeMatha). The legend of Big John not going out of his way to take interest in DeMatha players or at times WCAC players in general is LEGENDARY. Since you are one of the historians of Gtown hoops please point out the number of WCAC players on JT's teams. Its relatoively low, especially after JT's first ten years. The situation didn't improve during Esherick's short stint either. Things did get better with III's run for sure and he brought in a collection of WCAC studs (whom he apparently would later fail to form strong bonds with based on remarks made by said players). Ewing has not matched III so far as WCAC and overall local success. But while that may be the result of Ewing not being as charismatic as III when pitching to a recruit it certainly isn't the result of lack an effort. Ewing actually hired a young assistant coach who came from the WCAC. From all that I know he spends more time in the local gyms than III did and unlike III, folks in those gyms find Ewing far more engaging and approachable than they did III who pretty much tried to isolate himself from folks, including fellow coaches, when they happened to be in the same buildings with him. Stop painting a misleading picture of Ewing being a guy who has no interest in bringing in local prospects. Most of the players on Ewing's rosters were second or third choices who had a spot available to them because the seemingly first choices, a bunch of whom were local guys, thought it was better to go to Va Tech, Xavier, Pitt, James Madison, Miami, etc.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 18, 2021 22:27:19 GMT -5
Pryor, Yurtseven, Allen, Carey and Rice are all key additions. Not that I disagree but why are people including someone like Yurt who was not a grad transfer. He was an undergraduate who switched teams because of dissatisfaction he had with his former program.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 18, 2021 22:43:18 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but...what is the rationale with transfers? Are we content being what Bob Huggins was at Cincinnati, or worse, simply recruit all grad transfers (most of whom won't bother to graduate) and simply rebuild each and every year? That's not what basketball at Georgetown should be about. Instead, recruit some local kids from the WCAC who aren't going to jump at the first shiny offer elsewhere and who will be alumni in the fullest sense of the word. #1 - I too hate how many Hoya fans seem to want the Hoyas to find STARTERS via graduate player transfers each season. I hate even worse how they want these dudes to be granted six years of playing time. Its ridiculous how these fans never seem to trust the process of the regular high school recruits coming in, taking their lumps as they learn and eventually becoming starters themselves. Instead they have this notion of these more routine type of recruits perpetually being on the bench as a result of being displaced or pushed to the back in the favor of grad transfers coming in year after year. I don't get it. I read people hoping Rice can get an extra year or, God forbid, Carey coming back for a 20th year of college hoops. I really appreciate what these guys have brought to the table but no thanks for either of them coming back. I want the minutes to go to the current sophs and freshmen we have currently on the roster as well as the new high school recruits we have coming in. If for some reason the coaching staff needs to fill a hole and have to resort to bring in a grad player for next season's team so be it but I would prefer such a player is only brought in for depth, not a starting position. #2 - That said, DFW, hysteria appears to have overcome your judgment. You seem to insinuate that Ewing is running some rogue problem and dirtying the reputation of the Georgetown program by bringing in some black-listed mercenary agents. I don't know the numbers in terms of how many if any of these players have gotten their graduate degrees or even whether they realistically can do so in one season, but what I am aware of is that Ewing and his staff have brought in non-troublesome grads who from all indications take classwork seriously and have been model athletes for the university. Guys like Terrell Allen and Don Carey. Rice made the dean list's annually while he was at the freakin' Citadel for four seasons. Who would take issue with such a guy like that joining the Hoya ranks? Placing these young men, even indirectly, in the same category as Bob Huggins' Cincy collection of JUCO players is tacky and beneath you. In my opinion such a remark would have likely gotten deleted by the mods if it came from someone else other than you. You appear to be just itching for a fight in regards to anything about the Ewing coaching era I suppose; so much so that you created a thread to get this off your chest rather than responding to the issue in the actual threads in which it was initially brought up. #3 - Ewing and his staff spend as much time in high school guys watching WCAC teams as any Hoya staff in perhaps four decades. I have been a Hoya fan since the days of Alonzo. I eventually went to one of those WCAC schools (DeMatha). The legend of Big John not going out of his way to take interest in DeMatha players or at times WCAC players in general is LEGENDARY. Since you are one of the historians of Gtown hoops please point out the number of WCAC players on JT's teams. Its relatoively low, especially after JT's first ten years. The situation didn't improve during Esherick's short stint either. Things did get better with III's run for sure and he brought in a collection of WCAC studs (whom he apparently would later fail to form strong bonds with based on remarks made by said players). Ewing has not matched III so far as WCAC and overall local success. But while that may be the result of Ewing not being as charismatic as III when pitching to a recruit it certainly isn't the result of lack an effort. Ewing actually hired a young assistant coach who came from the WCAC. From all that I know he spends more time in the local gyms than III did and unlike III, folks in those gyms find Ewing far more engaging and approachable than they did III who pretty much tried to isolate himself from folks, including fellow coaches, when they happened to be in the same buildings with him. Stop painting a misleading picture of Ewing being a guy who has no interest in bringing in local prospects. Most of the players on Ewing's rosters were second or third choices who had a spot available to them because the seemingly first choices, a bunch of whom were local guys, thought it was better to go to Va Tech, Xavier, Pitt, James Madison, Miami, etc. How does Tre King fit within your narrative for point #2?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 18, 2021 22:53:03 GMT -5
To MCI's points:
1. Nothing against the players we have but I think grad transfers can be a crutch that would be better spent investing in more players like Collin Holloway. The only way you build is from the start, and some transfers come in with their own ups and downs baked in which a coach isn't going to shake in one year.
2. My response on transfers came from an earlier post who said we should go more for one year transfers to get good, because "that's how things are today". I disagree. The program isn't well served by players who are here for an extra year on their resume but are not here to take advantage of the degree available to them. Allen got his M.A., Carey will, but Pryor and Bile didn't and we probably won't be seeing them back on campus or closely tied to the program anytime soon if it wasn't important to them. The idea of the deflated basketball is more valuable now than ever, and GU should be something more than a way-station to the European leagues for these kids.
FWIW, the Huggins reference is not provocative but illustrative--he brought in juco kids that made his grad numbers horrible, but he won. Was that the best strategy? When he left, UC was 12-4 in the Big East and 25-8 overall. Mick Cronin inherited nothing--his first year at UC the Bearcats went 2-14 in the Big East. I don't see Ewing pursing an all-out push to go to short-term players, but I do see some fans that wouldn't mind if he did.
3. I would not mislead people suggesting Ewing et al. are not pursuing the WCAC; by contrast, I see the WCAC and DCIAA talent as the kind of kids that can provide Ewing some much-needed stability to teams going forward. Yes, he works harder on local talent than JT III did, but we haven't seen that manifest itself in commitments. It takes two, of course, so the local coaches have to build a level of trust that Georgetown will provide this stability to their kids. That said, an up and coming kid from DeMatha or St. John's is worth more long term than taking a flyer on the Galen Alexanders and Myron Gardners of the college recruiting world.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 18, 2021 22:53:07 GMT -5
No disrespect to kids like Allen or Carey or Rice but outside of Y7 when has this staff landed a top transfer? A program like Gtown has to land & develop HS kids 1st & foremost in my opinion... How often does an elite player transfer? Didn’t Yurt have some problems in Raleigh being Turkish? You also might not be giving Rice enough credit. He may make more 3s than anyone else in NCAA Div. 1. Out of those 3 you pick out Rice? Give me the other 2 over Rice all day. Give me Allen as the starting PG and I'm good. Every PG that played next to Mac looked worse than they really were.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 18, 2021 22:58:42 GMT -5
How often does an elite player transfer? Didn’t Yurt have some problems in Raleigh being Turkish? You also might not be giving Rice enough credit. He may make more 3s than anyone else in NCAA Div. 1. Out of those 3 you pick out Rice? Give me the other 2 over Rice all day. Give me Allen as the starting PG and I'm good. Every PG that played next to Mac looked worse than they really were. I'm not sure what the argument is here. Yurt was a good player and a nice get. Rice, Pryor and Allen were arguably as good, if not better. Of course, 3 were grad transfers and the other was a regular transfer so it's a bit of apples and oranges.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 18, 2021 23:07:24 GMT -5
Fairly often actually but I’m not the one pushing this narrative of Gtown going for “highly touted” transfers over HS kids Name some of the players you think are elite and transferring? We may have different definitions. Juzang, Mitchell........ Akinjo
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 18, 2021 23:12:56 GMT -5
This program can’t wait for “maybe next year” anymore. It has to win eventually. How have grabbing transfers changed this narrative for the program?
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